Vapping banned at work, but the ignorant statements...

[madicen]

There is a hefty tax on drinks, you just don't see it as the consumer. Ask a bar owner, while you're at it ask him about the hoops he had to jump through to get a liquor license, although that may vary by state.



Yep, same as there is now on cigarettes, lots of contraband. But they won't really care I mean what else can they do? If they outright ban they go no money, if they leave it be but tax it heavily they get some money.

I owned a bar in Massachusetts for many years (was in my family for close to 40) and the taxes associated were up there near the top of the list of why I chose to move on. Between taxes, liability insurance, cops, drugs and general BS it was more trouble than it was worth. Broke my heart to sell and walk away, but it was driving me to an early grave.

Taxes are coming, as sure as the night follows the day. Whats happening now is a repeat of what happened in 2009 when more and more smokers were turning to Snus (good stuff from Sweden, not that crap made in the US by Big tobacco) to kick the smoking habit. What resulted was The Pact Act . Prices on a can on snus went from $2 to $7-8, overnight.

 

[jpargana]

I just don't get why smoking, something that looks like smoking, drinking, and probably other things that don't leap to mind, are *selected* to be "tax farms." What gives those nimrods in Washington the right? What makes those CONSUMER PRODUCTS different from every other consumer product? If they tried to do this to... oh, I dunno... electronics? housewares? pet food? everybody in the country would be rioting on Washington... so what makes these products so SPECIAL???

Andria

With tobacco, they at least have an excuse to tax it: it's harmful, and we were (allegedly) paying to cover for medical expenses.

Of course, if the excise tax was meant for that ONLY, tobacco would be much cheaper, because those taxes would be much lower.
Those taxes are high as they are because BG decided to create a cash cow from smokers, pocketing huge profits from cigarettes.

But with the e-cig, there's no real "excuse". So, I must look at ANY tax BG decides to put on e-cigs as a "bribe tax":

"we will take this money from you for no real reason other than allowing you to vape in peace."
"we will take this money from you because your choice will MAYBE benefit YOUR health, but will CERTAINLY be detrimental to OUR coffers, so we MUST compensate for that, because over time we got used to PROFITING from you bad habit."

This is even more ironic, because BG has lied over the years, convincing rampant anti-smoking people that we were an economical BURDEN. And now, we see this war on this wise, informed and adult CHOICE we made, because we were not a burden after all, and BG is afraid the cash cow will be gone.


EU MEP Calls for Tobacco Tax Revenues to Be Protected from Electronic Cigarettes
Written question - Tax revenue from electronic cigarettes - E-004672/2013

We're Losing Revenue! Quick, Let's Tax E-Cigs!
http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.co.u...mpaign=Feed:+DickPuddlecote+(....+Puddlecote)

Taxing E-Cigarettes Seems Crazy
Taxing E-Cigarettes Seems Crazy - Forbes

LA City Council: Is the War Against E-Cigs About Lost of Tax Revenue?
CityWatch

 

[JMarca]

They could tax it very little, not create a black market, and make lots of money. This ain't rocket science!

When was the last time your government only wanted a little bit of your money?
They want as much as they can get!

 

[zoiDman]

When was the last time your government only wanted a little bit of your money?
They want as much as they can get!

When the Feds are 16 Trillion (that's Trillion with a "T") in the Hole. And Most States are in the Red, it sometimes is Not a Matter of Want, but of Need.

Who in their Right Mind Didn't think that e-Liquids would not be Taxed? I for One am Amazed that it has Taken this Long for Feds and States to get the Ball Rolling.

But then again, No One Every Said that our Government ever did Anything Quickly.

 

[DrMA]

With tobacco, they at least have an excuse to tax it: it's harmful, and we were (allegedly) paying to cover for medical expenses.

Of course, if the excise tax was meant for that ONLY, tobacco would be much cheaper, because those taxes would be much lower.
Those taxes are high as they are because BG decided to create a cash cow from smokers, pocketing huge profits from cigarettes.

But with the e-cig, there's no real "excuse". So, I must look at ANY tax BG decides to put on e-cigs as a "bribe tax":

"we will take this money from you for no real reason other than allowing you to vape in peace."
"we will take this money from you because your choice will MAYBE benefit YOUR health, but will CERTAINLY be detrimental to OUR coffers, so we MUST compensate for that, because over time we got used to PROFITING from you bad habit."

This is even more ironic, because BG has lied over the years, convincing rampant anti-smoking people that we were an economical BURDEN. And now, we see this war on this wise, informed and adult CHOICE we made, because we were not a burden after all, and BG is afraid the cash cow will be gone.


EU MEP Calls for Tobacco Tax Revenues to Be Protected from Electronic Cigarettes
Written question - Tax revenue from electronic cigarettes - E-004672/2013

We're Losing Revenue! Quick, Let's Tax E-Cigs!
http://dickpuddlecote.blogspot.co.u...mpaign=Feed:+DickPuddlecote+(....+Puddlecote)

Taxing E-Cigarettes Seems Crazy
Taxing E-Cigarettes Seems Crazy - Forbes

LA City Council: Is the War Against E-Cigs About Lost of Tax Revenue?
CityWatch

Excellent links. Thanks for posting.

 

[Jman8]

Who in their Right Mind Didn't think that e-Liquids would not be Taxed? I for One am Amazed that it has Taken this Long for Feds and States to get the Ball Rolling.

I think anyone, in their right mind, would think eLiquid would not be taxed heavily, or met with excise taxes. I think someone in their Left mind, er I mean, being shortsighted would think heavy taxation of eLiquid is a good/necessary thing.

But heavy taxation will not curtail demand. It may appear that way on the surface, as data may show less people buying same products. Yet, with black market likely in place due to heavy taxation and/or DIY, I think demand will be about the same (or arguably bigger).

If government were sane, or of the Right mind, it would tax eLiquid (for sure) but only at a small percentage. It would push for quality and safety and thus not give much incentive to go with DIY/black market. And it would rake in lots and lots of money in the process.

 

[zoiDman]

I think anyone, in their right mind, would think eLiquid would not be taxed heavily, or met with excise taxes. I think someone in their Left mind, er I mean, being shortsighted would think heavy taxation of eLiquid is a good/necessary thing.

But heavy taxation will not curtail demand. It may appear that way on the surface, as data may show less people buying same products. Yet, with black market likely in place due to heavy taxation and/or DIY, I think demand will be about the same (or arguably bigger).

If government were sane, or of the Right mind, it would tax eLiquid (for sure) but only at a small percentage. It would push for quality and safety and thus not give much incentive to go with DIY/black market. And it would rake in lots and lots of money in the process.

Wasn't Making a Commentary on e-liquid Taxation being Good, Bad or Indifferent. Just the Reality of the Situation.

You can make all the Logical Arguments for why e-Liquids Shouldn't be Taxed. And I'm sure you have Already.

But when it Comes to Taxation, does Our Government act Logically? Or do they just Tax as Much as they Can in areas where the Backlash is the Least?

 

[Jman8]

Yet, we can be assured that heavy taxation will create black market. And that would be directly linked to government actions/reactions to FDA policy.

 

[zoiDman]

Yet, we can be assured that heavy taxation will create black market. And that would be directly linked to government actions/reactions to FDA policy.

You can Assume just about Anything.

That Doesn't Mean that it will Occur. Or that if it Does Occur, that it will be Mainstream and Widely Used.

 

[Jman8]

You can Assume just about Anything.

That Doesn't Mean that it will Occur. Or that if it Does Occur, that it will be Mainstream and Widely Used.

I could say the same reply about government and heavy taxation.

As sure as you are that government will tax heavy, I am that certain a black market will exist for eLiquid and that it will be easily accessed.

 

[zoiDman]

I could say the same reply about government and heavy taxation.

As sure as you are that government will tax heavy, I am that certain a black market will exist for eLiquid and that it will be easily accessed.

The Question of Taxation is a Given. And States have Already started the that Process. The Feds won't follow suit until the FDA Regs are in place.

But the Black Market concept is Very Debatable.

Will there be a Black Market? Sure. There is a Black Market For EVERYTHING. LOL. But will it be Large and Widespread? I Really Don't think so.

Take Cigarettes. They are Heavily Taxed. And have a Black Market. But How Large is that Black Market Compared to the Entire Market?

Same with Booze. Sure, there are some people Making Booze in their Back Yards. Or Attempting to Import Booze from say Mexico to Avoid US Taxes. But is this the Norm? Or a VERY SMALL Percentage of the Liquor Market?

Maybe it would be a Good Poll Thread to ask ECF Members how much of their Cigarettes when they Smoked were Purchased from the Black Market?

If Any?

---

BTW - When and If you decide to start a Cigarette / Booze Black Market Poll Thread, Please Post a Like Here.

I would be Interested in seeing what you come up with.

 

[AndriaD]

"we will take this money from you for no real reason other than allowing you to vape in peace."
"we will take this money from you because your choice will MAYBE benefit YOUR health, but will CERTAINLY be detrimental to OUR coffers, so we MUST compensate for that, because over time we got used to PROFITING from you bad habit."

This is even more ironic, because BG has lied over the years, convincing rampant anti-smoking people that we were an economical BURDEN. And now, we see this war on this wise, informed and adult CHOICE we made, because we were not a burden after all, and BG is afraid the cash cow will be gone.

I really wish you would come to America and run for office; I'd vote for you in a heartbeat!!!

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Yet, we can be assured that heavy taxation will create black market. And that would be directly linked to government actions/reactions to FDA policy.

Yep, just like prohibition gave organized crime the liquor market, lock stock and barrel of whiskey. And keeping "that other stuff" as a schedule 1 controlled substance (utterly ridiculous) keeps a LOT of money in the pockets of criminals, that might go to gov't if they were intelligent enough to legalize and tax it. And, THAT is the tax money they might use to cover the tobacco shortfall -- if they were only intelligent enough to see it.

Andria

 

[joeec]

According to policy you are good to go if you vape 0 nic... Just tell them that and see if they test your juice. Here in NYC it is illegal to use ecig devices ( nic or no nic) wherever you're not allowed to smoke regular cigs which includes the work place. My place turns a blind eye because the three of us that do are discreet about it (we do vape in our areas and do not blow plumes of vapor all over the place) and no one has complained... I feel lucky that way that we have somewhat intelligent people here.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Racehorse]

Who in their Right Mind Didn't think that e-Liquids would not be Taxed?

I think this will turn out to be a "wash".

i.e., some of the ejuice makers who have markups of 300-800% will have to lower their prices.

 

[zoiDman]

I think this will turn out to be a "wash".

i.e., some of the ejuice makers who have markups of 300-800% will have to lower their prices.

There is a Rather Large Markup on Retail e-Liquids isn't there.

LOL

 

[Jman8]

The Question of Taxation is a Given. And States have Already started the that Process. The Feds won't follow suit until the FDA Regs are in place.

But the Black Market concept is Very Debatable.

Will there be a Black Market? Sure. There is a Black Market For EVERYTHING. LOL. But will it be Large and Widespread? I Really Don't think so.

I honestly think this has potential to be one of the largest black markets ever. There is plenty of time to stock up. Plenty of options available, and as Dr. Phillips noted, it isn't dealing with an item that will be illegal, nor does it have a viable social stigma. Yet, attempts to move it to harsh / heavy taxation will open that black market wide and large.

Let's pretend that only BT and BV (cigalikes) are available on open market, and that eLiquid is not (especially if flavors go under a brutal attack). Then there will be so much available on black market, with such a high demand, that it will be impossible for any law enforcement agency on the planet to keep up with.

I do think current market is better than whatever black market might deliver. But a heavily taxed market, as you are noting and many are anticipating will unleash underground markets that make sense from consumer perspective and where there is demand, there will (always) be supply.

Take Cigarettes. They are Heavily Taxed. And have a Black Market. But How Large is that Black Market Compared to the Entire Market?

I would say tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, in the US alone. Quick google search shows data from March 2014, that says black market for smokes in NY state makes up 56% of the total market.

Again, if flavors were attacked and/or nicotine was trying to be choked, I think it would be even larger for vaping. Right now there are thousands (if not millions) of flavors, but if somehow that were legally down to say 10 or less, then that would mean if hundreds were purchased thru underground market, it would be much larger than 56%. Could be in neighborhood of 90 to 99% of overall market (for eLiquid) and then APV one is hard to predict, but I could see that being really high if only BV is able to survive say in 2019. Especially considering innovations that could happen in next 2 years, but are not adopted by BV.

Maybe it would be a Good Poll Thread to ask ECF Members how much of their Cigarettes when they Smoked were Purchased from the Black Market?

If Any?

I'm thinking people aren't likely going to admit to this openly online. I currently smoke and purchase legally cause I smoke so little nowadays. But I like looking at the data as I think it is relevant to vaping market and tells me that heavy taxation is counter productive.

March 2014 Data on Cigarette Smuggling

 

[DrMA]

There is a Rather Large Markup on Retail e-Liquids isn't there.

LOL

Absolutely. I make my own ejuice and most mixes end up costing about $1.25/50mL, and that factors in the shipping cost for the raw materials. Even my most complex mix which takes 7 flavors+sweetner comes out under $2/50mL. When people pay $20 for a teeny 30mL bottle that's likely a 800%+ markup.

 

[zoiDman]

I honestly think this has potential to be one of the largest black markets ever. There is plenty of time to stock up. Plenty of options available, and as Dr. Phillips noted, it isn't dealing with an item that will be illegal, nor does it have a viable social stigma. Yet, attempts to move it to harsh / heavy taxation will open that black market wide and large.

Let's pretend that only BT and BV (cigalikes) are available on open market, and that eLiquid is not (especially if flavors go under a brutal attack). Then there will be so much available on black market, with such a high demand, that it will be impossible for any law enforcement agency on the planet to keep up with.

I do think current market is better than whatever black market might deliver. But a heavily taxed market, as you are noting and many are anticipating will unleash underground markets that make sense from consumer perspective and where there is demand, there will (always) be supply.



I would say tens, if not hundreds of millions of dollars, in the US alone. Quick google search shows data from March 2014, that says black market for smokes in NY state makes up 56% of the total market.

Again, if flavors were attacked and/or nicotine was trying to be choked, I think it would be even larger for vaping. Right now there are thousands (if not millions) of flavors, but if somehow that were legally down to say 10 or less, then that would mean if hundreds were purchased thru underground market, it would be much larger than 56%. Could be in neighborhood of 90 to 99% of overall market (for eLiquid) and then APV one is hard to predict, but I could see that being really high if only BV is able to survive say in 2019. Especially considering innovations that could happen in next 2 years, but are not adopted by BV.



I'm thinking people aren't likely going to admit to this openly online. I currently smoke and purchase legally cause I smoke so little nowadays. But I like looking at the data as I think it is relevant to vaping market and tells me that heavy taxation is counter productive.

March 2014 Data on Cigarette Smuggling

I'm starting to see where you are going with this.

The majority of the Black Market you are referring to is Smuggling from One State with a Lower State Tax to Another with a Higher State Tax on Tobacco.

While there are many types of tobacco trafficking and schemes to avoid taxes, the most pervasive is smuggling cigarettes between states to take advantage of tax differentials, according to the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. From $7 billion to $10 billion in state and federal tax revenue is lost each year because of smuggling, up from $5 billion a few years ago, according to the ATF.

The per-pack tax on cigarettes ranges from 17 cents in Missouri and 30 cents in Virginia to $4.35 in New York, where New York City also imposes an additional $1.50 charge, according to the Federation of Tax Administrators in Washington. There have been 113 tax increases in 47 states, the District of Columbia and New York City since 2000, the group said.

Cigarette Smuggling Increase Prompts Crackdown by States - Bloomberg

Looking at it that way, I would have to Agree that this type of State to State Black Market would be Much Harder to Combat.

 

[zoiDman]

Absolutely. I make my own ejuice and most mixes end up costing about $1.25/50mL, and that factors in the shipping cost for the raw materials. Even my most complex mix which takes 7 flavors+sweetner comes out under $2/50mL. When people pay $20 for a teeny 30mL bottle that's likely a 800%+ markup.

I'm a Big Believer in Free Markets. And think there is Nothing Wrong with a Company Making Profits. It is the Engine that Drives Capitalism.

But when I look at how Much It Cost me to DIY my e-Liquids, I can't Ever Imagine buying Pre-Made e-Liquids again.