Variable Voltage and Patent
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After reading the thread, and looking at the patent itself, this whole thing makes me sick. I was debating on picking up a Infinity after trying one, but this patent business has killed it for me. I'm not really worried about the patent being granted, due to the fact that theres too much information out on the Internet on how you can build one for yourself, plus all the other VV products already out on the market.
Sorry Buzzkill, you make a good product, but your too greedy for me to support your company. I guess I'm done debating now, I'm now planning on getting a ProVari.
EDIT: Btw, quote above, is what ended the debate. License? Seriously? You said you were trying to protect us from big tobacco, however your trying to become e-big.
Sorry Buzzkill, you make a good product, but your too greedy for me to support your company. I guess I'm done debating now, I'm now planning on getting a ProVari.
EDIT: Btw, quote above, is what ended the debate. License? Seriously? You said you were trying to protect us from big tobacco, however your trying to become e-big.
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I'm really upset with this, because I'm a customer, but can't blame Michele, I probably would have done the same if I was in his shoes.
What I would really like to know, if it's possible, is the amount of the fee. How much need other producers to pay for each vv sold?
What I would really like to know, if it's possible, is the amount of the fee. How much need other producers to pay for each vv sold?
Here ya go Bebbo
Posted by BuzzKill
A Patent does not bar products from being developed. It enables continuing development. A Patent holder has a few options when the patent is granted:
Option one... close the door on the competition: By closing the door on the competition the patent holder reserves the right to deny ANYBODY the right to produce the product other than the patent holder. If the Patent holder is a huge company with the ability to produce enough product to fully satisfy the market, they may choose to go down this path. This is generally reserved for REALLY big companies or REALLY stupid small companies...
Option two... License the technology to the marketplace This is the smart move... for a licensing fee, a manufacturer can manufacture a product that contains the core patentable content. The size of this fee is often a percentage of sales, but occasionally it is a fixed fee per unit produced. In either case, there is a negotiation that determines the fee and it makes no sense to charge a fee that cripples or limits the growth of the licensee... this is good business! MANY products you own contain patented technology that has been outlicensed, and it is invisible to you.
This was from page 6 of this thread
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Thanks dspin, I've read that, was in another thred too posted by Zen.
I just wanted to know how much they could broadly be (more or less). In other words what was in Buzz head for negotiation start (1$ - 10$ - 100$ - whatever). I know it will be a no answer, but I tried. Even because I don't have any guess at all. I only know that will be the price increase we customers will pay
I just wanted to know how much they could broadly be (more or less). In other words what was in Buzz head for negotiation start (1$ - 10$ - 100$ - whatever). I know it will be a no answer, but I tried. Even because I don't have any guess at all. I only know that will be the price increase we customers will pay
His next patent on the idea to use a screwdriver to adjust voltage? Or maybe a blind thumbwheel also?
Sry Angus! I just can't take that guy bashing Buzzkill! It's Notcig's subforum!!! We will defend this realm with civility!
Interesting that you brought this up... because I wrote that originally, and Mike copied and pasted it in this thread... also note, that many of you immediately assumed that Mike wrote it, because he posted it... That is perfectly fine with me, and I'll tell you why.
Behind the scenes Mike asked permission to use what I wrote, and I told him no problem. In essence, we entered into a no fee license deal wherein he could use my material without citing me as the author. It's a real wold example of how mutual agreements work, and benefit all.
There is a misconception here that licensing technology always results in increased costs to the end user when in many cases the exact opposite is true... outlicensing technology (also called "open innovation") often results in REDUCED cost to the consumer. When a company can simply license the technology there is a free exchange of ideas wherein the R&D costs plummet, and do not need to be passed on to the end-user.
If I decided to bring a simple VV to market, my R&D time is now limited to how to get the mechanical and industrial design aspects worked out... I no longer have to worry a whole lot about the circuit design, because I can outlicense that to Mike who has already proven the concept and done the hard part. And HE will charge me a fee which in the short-run will be much lower than sinking my IR&D into reinventing the wheel.
End result, I can afford to bring this to market with a much smaller investment than if I was starting from scratch. That translates to lower prices to the consumer.
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Yeah I knew it was from you, remembered the same words even used (made me understand perfectly even for my english), seems to be back at school here with exemples
About second part, if I understand it well, I don't agree with you. Could be right for market not in continuous development as for esig. If I was a small company without a vv project and I bought the Infinity know how to make one (paying a fee per each sold) I won't have a big success. Esmokers always look for improvement, and the market is flowing very fast.
That's why Notcigs is comin out with a v2 of their vv, Provari came out with a big improvement on vv and now they are trying to bring news to a hungry market
All IMHO obviously
Guys let me say this, I would not like to be misunderstood cause I'm writing in a foreign lenguage. I am not flaming Notcigs at all, I am only thinking and writing about the subject and trying to understand better what is going on. I said before I would have done the same if I was in Mike shoes (but unluckily I'm just a normal customer hehe)
Tell me if there's something wrong in what I write and I will correct/delete immediatly. I know I'm in Notcig's home here as rightly stated before
Tell me if there's something wrong in what I write and I will correct/delete immediatly. I know I'm in Notcig's home here as rightly stated before
Actually you have been tactful and appropriate for the most part Bebbo. Questions are good and its a chance for everyone to possibly learn something.
Ultimately how we all feel one way or the other is irrelevant. It is up to the US patent office to determine the validity of the claim. In time we will all see the outcome.
About second part, if I understand it well, I don't agree with you. Could be right for market not in continuous development as for esig. If I was a small company without a vv project and I bought the Infinity know how to make one (paying a fee per each sold) I won't have a big success. Esmokers always look for improvement, and the market is flowing very fast.
That's why Notcigs is comin out with a v2 of their vv, Provari came out with a big improvement on vv and now they are trying to bring news to a hungry market
All IMHO obviously
Every day I work in the area of technology transfer. Every day I am involved in licensing deals on some level, and each and every day I see how well this system works!
Licensing the technology does not rule out collaboration or improvement, it enhances it. It gives the licensee of the technology an edge up on those that are starting from scratch. Think about this... if you want to build a house... would you rather start by designing a lumber mill that can create 2x4s, or would you rather buy 2x4s?
To build a house starting from scratch, you will need to invent the hammer, invent nails, create a saw mill, develop roofing materials and somehow manage to create drywall sheets or something equiv... NOBODY would take on this task! But, buying a hammer, nails, shingles etc... you have a chance to actually get the job done. AND your time can be spent designing the house and not all the stuff the house is made of, and yes you can even make original designs that nobody has done before.
Well, when you build that house using all the readilly available tools, somewhere in there you have participated on some level in the profit structure of countless licensing deals... From the hammer to the nails, the saws and shingles to the windows and doors... there are so many license deals in play it would boggle your mind! Is there a patent on the hammer? Maybe, maybe not... odds are there is a license deal on the grip material, or the processes that forged the steel.
New innovation happens BECAUSE there are license deals and patents. There would be no point in inventing anything, if the inventor can't make a living at it. You pay these fees every day of your life, and it's invisible to you.
People are calling Mike greedy... I'm calling him smart. The reall greed here is coming from the folks that are afraid prices will increase because of this, and in all honesty, I see the opportunity here for real growth in the industry, and yes... this is an andustry.
Well here's news for you... The prices WILL most likely increase on the products that are already in the market... With the exeption of the Buzz and the Infinity... ALL other VV products on the market are based on a design concept that they did not invent. ALL of the companies that have brought VV devices to market did so knowing full well the BUZZ was already out there... they without question, KNEW they didn't invent it... Mike entered a market that had absolutely NO VV products in it (yeah yeah, the fist pack isn't VV) and he paved the way. The companies that jumped on the bandwagon made some improvements in cosmetic or interface issues, but at the end of the day, the BUZZ was the first VV on the market, and a strong claim can be made for him inventing the thing. Even if he didn't... the companies that followed ABSOLUTELY did not invent it, and they knew it.
They should pay license fees, and because THEY are the greedy ones that KNOW they didn't create this technology, will pass these costs on in increased prices. If you steal an invention and profit from it YOU are the greedy one, not the guy that invented it in the first place.
Because of this, however, new products probably will come in lower than the existing ones out there. There will be FAR less development costs.
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I'm surprised I'm posting, because I don't even care that much. I think the real question everyone is asking is "What exactly did he invent?"
The concept of VV was out there. I think that seems clear enough. He implemented a linear regulator on his device which (I think) uses a screwdriver or something to adjust it and he marketed it.
Cool.
To my (limited) knowledge, though, he didn't invent the boost regulator for ecigs (perhaps ProVape did, I don't know) and I don't think he invented the 'software' or algorithm that's used in the Darwin or the ProVari. He didn't invent round devices or the voltage display window. Yet all of these things seem like they're included in the patent.
I'm pro-business. I'm pro-patent. I just think most people are wondering how he is covering all bases here. So people naturally are wondering why some of those mod makers should pay.
Oh well, I think you're mostly right and whatever happens will be transparent to the end-user. Just my two cents.
The concept of VV was out there. I think that seems clear enough. He implemented a linear regulator on his device which (I think) uses a screwdriver or something to adjust it and he marketed it.
Cool.
To my (limited) knowledge, though, he didn't invent the boost regulator for ecigs (perhaps ProVape did, I don't know) and I don't think he invented the 'software' or algorithm that's used in the Darwin or the ProVari. He didn't invent round devices or the voltage display window. Yet all of these things seem like they're included in the patent.
I'm pro-business. I'm pro-patent. I just think most people are wondering how he is covering all bases here. So people naturally are wondering why some of those mod makers should pay.
Oh well, I think you're mostly right and whatever happens will be transparent to the end-user. Just my two cents.
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