Shape of the wing causes the air to move faster over the top surface than the bottom. The faster moving air causes a reduction in air pressure above the wing compared to below, resulting in lift... Or something like that...
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A glowing coil is far exceeding atomization temperature. Coils do not glow when they are atomizing. Also, these images do not illustrate time. So they really don't show anything about atomizer operation and performance other than one general principal.
A long, large-diameter wire coil that is incapable of glowing can far outperform a short, small-diameter wire coil that glows easily.
My 3.4 ohm 28g coil atomizer can vaporize at 4 watts (v1 vamo w/ efest 18350):
While this is generally true, what I'm on about right now is that this is not because they can't. It's because of all the variables not coming together quite the same in two different atomizers. I believe that at the same wattage, different coil setups *CAN* potentially perform similarly because the same amount of energy is being put into the atomizer. The question is how well that energy is harnessed toward atomizing.
That it is.
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Come on now drg
Lets just say for argument sake that the time was exactly the same (which I'm guessing was somewhat close knowing BJ's testing habits).
Color is an indication of temperature and the photo clearly shows that the temp of the 33g wire is much higher than the 28g.
Other than that simple fact, you now get into the specifics of other variables of the atty setup. I don't think anyone is going to argue that you can't vape on 28g wire.
Lets just say for argument sake that the time was exactly the same (which I'm guessing was somewhat close knowing BJ's testing habits).
Color is an indication of temperature and the photo clearly shows that the temp of the 33g wire is much higher than the 28g.
Other than that simple fact, you now get into the specifics of other variables of the atty setup. I don't think anyone is going to argue that you can't vape on 28g wire.
The question or rather the point is that time doesn't have to be the same. I'm not questioning what he illustrated, rather pointing out another relevant dimension.
It is not insignificant that coils don't operate when glowing. Glow illustrates a principle but that principle is obfuscated by the temperature issue. It's not about temperature but energy and more specifically energy transfer. Both of those wires are radiating the same total energy.
bj43 did just that (at 4w).
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Ok, I'm just a simple minded person.....but I don't understand what all the fuss is about.
Call it what you will (temp, energy, etc, etc), a 2 ohm 33g coil and a 2 ohm 28g coil will not vape the same in the same configuration at any wattage.
To vaporize juice "energy" has to be transferred to the juice until it reaches the temp at which it vaporizes. To much "energy" the juice is going to burn, not enough and there is nothing to vape.
How a person gets to their preferred vape may happen in a number of different ways, and likely different for each person. But the fact still remains the same...... "X" watts regulated is not going to perform the same independent of variations in the atty/setup.
IMO certain things are givens....people don't want to vape burnt juice, people don't want to suck air, people would like there vape to happen without waiting forever, and etc.
Again I'm just a simple person
Call it what you will (temp, energy, etc, etc), a 2 ohm 33g coil and a 2 ohm 28g coil will not vape the same in the same configuration at any wattage.
To vaporize juice "energy" has to be transferred to the juice until it reaches the temp at which it vaporizes. To much "energy" the juice is going to burn, not enough and there is nothing to vape.
How a person gets to their preferred vape may happen in a number of different ways, and likely different for each person. But the fact still remains the same...... "X" watts regulated is not going to perform the same independent of variations in the atty/setup.
IMO certain things are givens....people don't want to vape burnt juice, people don't want to suck air, people would like there vape to happen without waiting forever, and etc.
Again I'm just a simple person
We actually can't say this, it's entirely dependent on the configuration and operational scenarios. "Vape the same" is also very subjective. The point of what we're discussing is right now is, it could well vape similarly.
Also, I'm not sure when we started limiting the resistance to identical resistance, but that's not part of the wattage discussion and obscures the issue.
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Those were some nice clouds.
So....can you show us your coil setup? It would be interesting to see how you wrap 7+ inches of 28g.
Also, how long does it take to get it to perform like that from a cold start?
Two 3ohm wick/coils. 33g and 28g wrapped around a 3mm drill bit. Wick is 3mm hemp. First burn was 4 watts on each and second burn was at 15 watts on each. The 33g flash flamed at 15 watts. 100% VG.
Click on pic for video.
Click on pic for video.
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It's basically a 17-or-so wrap "micro" coil around 3x 3mm silica, in an octopus rda. Really, the coil and wick are only maybe half the equation of atomizer performance.
It does take quite some time, maybe 8-10 seconds. This is why the time dimension is significant.
You are to a large degree obscuring the point by focusing on non-functional states. For example, overpowering a wick would not be a state in which the atomizer could be operated, and vapor production would be limited to below that state.
I hope no one is misunderstanding the point here. It's not in dispute that heat density in coils of different sizes is different. However that per se does not lead to a different vape. It's how the rest of the atomizer deals with the transfer of that energy that matters. This can lead to superior, inferior or the same results from different coils, all dependent on other things.
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I know I am showing two extremes, but only to prove that watts control as advertised as the reason for VW is a myth. This 28g works great at 15 watts. Not so with the 33g. The sales pitch was if you like a certain wattage, all your coils will preform the same at that wattage. They even proclaimed that if one of the dual coils shorted you would not notice it with VW.
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Honestly at this point that's ... kind of a strawman. We in this thread are not claiming that ... Who's "they" anyway?
Watt control is a very useful function regardless of specific performance on any device. Though in the context of consumer level devices, many do indeed function very similarly at the same wattage despite different coils because the coil is not the limiting factor.
Watt control is a very useful function regardless of specific performance on any device. Though in the context of consumer level devices, many do indeed function very similarly at the same wattage despite different coils because the coil is not the limiting factor.
I am not here to argue, many here know who they are or were, it was all over the internet by reviewers. That is what is great about this community. We can all post our opinions but you seem a little aggressive. So I will bow out ...
I haven't posted any opinions, have I? At least not on the ongoing discussion.
Anyway here's an example from another angle. If you coiled enough 33g to match the mass of the 28g coil, using the same coil diameter and wicking, and put the same wattage through those coils, you would probably get similar performance.
Anyway here's an example from another angle. If you coiled enough 33g to match the mass of the 28g coil, using the same coil diameter and wicking, and put the same wattage through those coils, you would probably get similar performance.
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This is Watt (pun intended) this thread is about.
Two wires, 33g and 28g both 2ohm.
33g at 4 watts, hot enough to vaporize juice.
28g at 4 watts, not hot enough to vaporize juice.
Yes, it demonstrates heat transfer of wire to free air. Heat energy is identical. One wire transfers its heat to the air more efficiently. It's bigger. One less so. What you have there is the idea: that heat transfer matters. What you lack is a consideration of transfer efficiency to a liquid that also requires energy of phase change. Those are two characteristics glossed over by the demonstration.
Wrap the longer, thicker wire loosely around a small diameter silica wick and the shorter, thinner very tightly around large diameter solid rolled 200 SS mesh wick, both with wet wicks and fire for a couple seconds and repost the result. It won't surprise you (or shouldn't) but the drama will be gone. Neither will do much. Up the watts to something reasonable and the results will be similar and not bad if you built them right. In my mind, that is what the thread is about (sort of anyway). Wire temp will be about the same. What does wire temp tell you (not much). Keep increasing power until wire temp differs significantly. Now wire temp is useful. One works "better" than the other because the one with higher wire temp failed -- it also tastes burnt.
The experiment, though, is very helpful (at least to me) to understand how an atomizer works and how to make one do what I want it to do. These concepts are just the jumping off point, and it gets more complicated from here (uh oh).
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Early in my engineering training, I quickly learned that there are a zillion things that affect how something behaves, and it is very easy to accidentally miss some of them... even some important ones. In the end, the real-world test always triumphs over the paper exercise.
-Joe DUnfee
hahahaha this post made me laugh so much
mainly because about 2 paragraphs in im like "what in the hell is this dude going on about?" ....i have no doubt you know what you are talking about and are very knowledgable but it's really quite greek to me
this post is so far deep in the woods I can't even explain it...
mainly because about 2 paragraphs in im like "what in the hell is this dude going on about?" ....i have no doubt you know what you are talking about and are very knowledgable but it's really quite greek to me
this post is so far deep in the woods I can't even explain it...
I'm seeing a lot of similarities between what we're looking for in the "perfect vape" and modern internal combustion engines. Electronic Fuel (Fluid) Injection, airflow control, thermal regulation, massive closed loop feedback sensor suites, an embedded microcontroller.
Did a quick googlefu and it seems like the smallest practical injector right now is Currawong Engineering for UAVs. It's about as big as a current atomizer... but they use PWM for door control, and we've got a power source - with a micropump and injector, a REO mod could take bottom feeding to the next level.
Anyone got a good idea for airflow control?
Did a quick googlefu and it seems like the smallest practical injector right now is Currawong Engineering for UAVs. It's about as big as a current atomizer... but they use PWM for door control, and we've got a power source - with a micropump and injector, a REO mod could take bottom feeding to the next level.
Anyone got a good idea for airflow control?
I'll be going with measuring the resistance changes, thermistors have too many issues.. I worked out what they will be and will be using a dedicated microchip that does all the work for you basically in measuring voltage/current and resistance in real time with enough speed/resolution, and a microprocessor to use that information to regulate voltage or current or both to achieve the proper temp. All settable of course with resistance coefficient setting as well.
The beauty is that it should adjust temp to keep it stable with any airflow, with any amount of juice on the wick etc. With the only issue I can see possibly being the juice itself being semi conductive and throwing off readings.
I have been sidetracked for several months on other electronics projects and such, but I have all the required parts sitting on my electronics bench waiting. Two regulators, microprocessor, sensing chips, regulators and associated parts as well as an oled display. Right now I have a fairly long line of audio gear and electronics in line for repairs on the bench that pay cash. The toughest part will be the microprocessor coding as I'm not that great of a programmer. That I really have to design and etch a custom circuit board to go farther with the prototype. Tiny SMD parts don't breadboard well..
I'll be going with measuring the resistance changes, thermistors have too many issues.. I worked out what they will be and will be using a dedicated microchip that does all the work for you basically in measuring voltage/current and resistance in real time with enough speed/resolution, and a microprocessor to use that information to regulate voltage or current or both to achieve the proper temp. All settable of course with resistance coefficient setting as well.
The beauty is that it should adjust temp to keep it stable with any airflow, with any amount of juice on the wick etc. With the only issue I can see possibly being the juice itself being semi conductive and throwing off readings.
I have been sidetracked for several months on other electronics projects and such, but I have all the required parts sitting on my electronics bench waiting. Two regulators, microprocessor, sensing chips, regulators and associated parts as well as an oled display. Right now I have a fairly long line of audio gear and electronics in line for repairs on the bench that pay cash. The toughest part will be the microprocessor coding as I'm not that great of a programmer. That I really have to design and etch a custom circuit board to go farther with the prototype. Tiny SMD parts don't breadboard well..
I'm no electronics expert by any means, but that sounds an awful lot like the DNA20. Am I missing something?
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