Code is easy, soldering is almost easy - given decent tools. DESIGN makes me die
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That's what it sounds like to me as well... or perhaps the Nivel chip.
IMO the next step in the electronics revolution really would be a mechanism to directly control the coil temperature using feedback from a temperature probe on the coil itself.
I will let DrMA answer it more in depth....but basically how txrider described.....on a dna it constantly reads the coil resistance and makes very slight voltage adjustments as the coil resistance changes....most of which doesn't show up on the display.
Like I said....unless txrider is doing something different and I am missing something.
Edit - but to more specifically answer your question the dna is indicating wire temp by wattage set point. I know that's not necessarily accurate but IMHO it's as good as it gets for now.
Like I said....unless txrider is doing something different and I am missing something.
Edit - but to more specifically answer your question the dna is indicating wire temp by wattage set point. I know that's not necessarily accurate but IMHO it's as good as it gets for now.
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Ah..but wattage is not wire temp.
I may have miss understood txrider. I thought he was using resistance changes in the wire calibrated to known temperature/resistance cooefficients of kanthal/nichrome.
What I was thinking is something like a chip that could throttle down if the power level overcomes the wicks ability to deliver juice. Sorta like dialing in a max wire temp tuned to your ejuice mix (PG/VG).
If you guys want to know wire temps, I can do that. I am a thermographier.
Give me whatever situation (s) you would like to know/see.
I can do it at a set amount of time, over time (30 fps of temp data), peak...whatever.
My initial thought would be to set up real world coils and just start testing. Another way would be to do it based on ohm of coil....for example, 2 different wires but same ohm.
Give me some thoughts/ideas and we will get it done.
BTW target size is not a problem. We just did some work for a pace maker manufacturer and were hitting a target that was .040x.060. I had to get creative with the optics but we could land over 400 pixels on it.
Give me whatever situation (s) you would like to know/see.
I can do it at a set amount of time, over time (30 fps of temp data), peak...whatever.
My initial thought would be to set up real world coils and just start testing. Another way would be to do it based on ohm of coil....for example, 2 different wires but same ohm.
Give me some thoughts/ideas and we will get it done.
BTW target size is not a problem. We just did some work for a pace maker manufacturer and were hitting a target that was .040x.060. I had to get creative with the optics but we could land over 400 pixels on it.
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jjkillian where have you been over the past year? Welcome to the thread!
Ok..while I would have a field day with your capabilities/equipment, here is a quick suggestion:
In a dripper:
1/16" micro coils with a fresh battery. Measure volts underload and wire temp. Take time lapse measurements from button push to coil glow. First unwicked, then wicked (through the hole), fully saturated to depletion and coil glow.
Same test for two wire types: 30g, and 28g round A1 Kanthal.
Two coils for each: 1.0 ohms and .8 ohms
Chart: x-axis= time, y-axis as temp. Note voltage under load for start and finish. Keeping starting voltage constant for each test.
So that is four coils and eight tests. Hmm..too much?
Ok..while I would have a field day with your capabilities/equipment, here is a quick suggestion:
In a dripper:
1/16" micro coils with a fresh battery. Measure volts underload and wire temp. Take time lapse measurements from button push to coil glow. First unwicked, then wicked (through the hole), fully saturated to depletion and coil glow.
Same test for two wire types: 30g, and 28g round A1 Kanthal.
Two coils for each: 1.0 ohms and .8 ohms
Chart: x-axis= time, y-axis as temp. Note voltage under load for start and finish. Keeping starting voltage constant for each test.
So that is four coils and eight tests. Hmm..too much?
I am not sure if we should introduce juice in to the equation, at least for now. That is a tough variable to control. Density, nic level, PG/VG, wicking, ambient temperature.
It would be interesting to know the minimum temp to vaporize different fluid types and maybe somehow come up with an optimum temp.
I guess at the end of the day, we really would need both numbers.
I think for now we should focus strictly on the wire types and coil types.
I also think, just to keep stuff simple in the beginning, we should stick to one voltage level. Then we can start to extrapolate from there.
If we wanted to get really advanced we could build a simulator over time. I can extract all kinds of data. If anyone has a back ground or access to 3d modeling software I can give you all the raw data in the world for temps.
Okay, a couple of challenges and things that have to be understood about Infrared right off the bat.
-I will only be able to do oxidized wire. IR does not work well on shiny objects.
-We are only going to be able to focus on a certain point on the coil. Round objects appear hotter at the edges. This effect starts at one point and goes outward increasing measured temp around the object. So a single line will be measured on the coil to overcome this.
-As temperature increases so does emissivity. Normally I do not work with stuff that heats up so fast, so this is going to be a challenge to get this right. This is also one of the reasons I am anxious to start doing this. This will be a good learning process.
While I have access to a multitude of test equipment (we own an Infrared services company and a test and measurement device supply company) I am not that strong in electronics.
What I really need is some device that will fire a constant 3.7V or whatever, so I can remove and control as many variables as possible and just focus on temp. I could just use a fresh 4.2V charged battery every time I guess. There are still other variables with that set up though.
It would be interesting to know the minimum temp to vaporize different fluid types and maybe somehow come up with an optimum temp.
I guess at the end of the day, we really would need both numbers.
I think for now we should focus strictly on the wire types and coil types.
I also think, just to keep stuff simple in the beginning, we should stick to one voltage level. Then we can start to extrapolate from there.
If we wanted to get really advanced we could build a simulator over time. I can extract all kinds of data. If anyone has a back ground or access to 3d modeling software I can give you all the raw data in the world for temps.
Okay, a couple of challenges and things that have to be understood about Infrared right off the bat.
-I will only be able to do oxidized wire. IR does not work well on shiny objects.
-We are only going to be able to focus on a certain point on the coil. Round objects appear hotter at the edges. This effect starts at one point and goes outward increasing measured temp around the object. So a single line will be measured on the coil to overcome this.
-As temperature increases so does emissivity. Normally I do not work with stuff that heats up so fast, so this is going to be a challenge to get this right. This is also one of the reasons I am anxious to start doing this. This will be a good learning process.
While I have access to a multitude of test equipment (we own an Infrared services company and a test and measurement device supply company) I am not that strong in electronics.
What I really need is some device that will fire a constant 3.7V or whatever, so I can remove and control as many variables as possible and just focus on temp. I could just use a fresh 4.2V charged battery every time I guess. There are still other variables with that set up though.
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JJ - I use Autodesk Inventor for 3D modeling and I'm willing to help however I can.
As far as constant voltage goes there is probably a number of ways to achieve it (DrMA would be a good source here), but the first thing that comes to mind is a 12v power supply (or harvested cpu power supply) and a step down regulator that fits the application.
As far as constant voltage goes there is probably a number of ways to achieve it (DrMA would be a good source here), but the first thing that comes to mind is a 12v power supply (or harvested cpu power supply) and a step down regulator that fits the application.
Something like this should be able to handle the job I would think....but it is china 
DC Step Down Voltage Regulator Converter Power Supply 4 5 30VTO0 8 28V12A Output | eBay
DC Step Down Voltage Regulator Converter Power Supply 4 5 30VTO0 8 28V12A Output | eBay
Ha....here are a couple of 3.3v ac-dc power supplies that should adjust up to ~3.63v....These would just plug into the wall and output dc voltage.
$10 20a In Mesa (but shipping is $16.46)
3 3 V Enclosed Switching Power Supply Free Shipping CSI 100W SF3 3 | eBay
$45 40a In California (free shipping)Mean Well SP 200 3 3 200W 3 3V 40A Single Output Power Supply | eBay
$10 20a In Mesa (but shipping is $16.46)
3 3 V Enclosed Switching Power Supply Free Shipping CSI 100W SF3 3 | eBay
$45 40a In California (free shipping)Mean Well SP 200 3 3 200W 3 3V 40A Single Output Power Supply | eBay
I think it would be good to include juice of some sort, since it is such an important part of the equation. The amount of juice vaporized, and perhaps part that is atomized without being vaporized may be a very significant influence on the temperature of the coil.
I realize there is no standard juice, but since you may be the first to do this type of temperature study for the public, you get to define your own standard! Perhaps a vendor will suggest a standard mixture, but whatever it is, make it something anyone can reproduce. It may simply be a particular mixture of VG/PG.
-Joe Dunfee
I agree. Without juice in the experiment, the data isn't useful. The idea is to characterize an atomizer, not an air heater.
For power, any VW mod should do the trick as long as the same one is used for each trial.
i hate to be a naysayer but I'm not sure what the data will reveal in terms of useful knowledge. The expected temperature curve will plateau at the phase change of the juice and then climb as the atomizer dries out and fails (juice burn). This will happen faster or slower depending on the design of the atomizer. Is something different expected?
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I thought you guys only cared about the wire temp.
I only read the first couple of pages and the last couple of the thread.
Juice will create another variable. Juice also creates an entire other discussion, much of which is user perceived. For example, some people want a hot vape, cold vape, warm vape, etc. Different density, mix and probably even flavoring could change the rate and temp at which is vaporizes. Remember, the equipment I have access to measures down to .035mk, which works out to 1/35th of 1/10th of a degree. So stuff is going to act different even by it aging. Juice just has too many variables to control......at first. Not to mention the fact that juice also adds another variable, the wick. Then, for example, we have wick set up, which includes density, type, amount and on and on. I have some ideas for testing juice, but I really need the initial wire/coil data first, IMO.
From what I gathered you need the different wire type temps (brand, gauge, etc). I was then going to move from that and do the different types of coils that people commonly build using just one gauge from the original tests. I could then move from that and use one coil type and one gauge type and do straight VG, PG, and different blend levels and/or do different devices.
I feel like doing it that way removes as many variables as possible during each "round" of testing.
This is going to be an on going project. I own two businesses and have a pretty big family, so my time is limited. However, I want the experience of working on smaller objects, fast heating objects and the other challenges associated with doing this project. So we will get it done.
I think this weekend I will just use one of my set ups I already have and use that as a test bed for the correct set up for my equipment and give some type of initial data.
On another subject, I have access to particle counters. This is not my world of expertise, but if someone wants to set up some sort of testing protocol and design, we could test the silica/ceramic wick questions....or any particle questions within the vapor.
I only read the first couple of pages and the last couple of the thread.
Juice will create another variable. Juice also creates an entire other discussion, much of which is user perceived. For example, some people want a hot vape, cold vape, warm vape, etc. Different density, mix and probably even flavoring could change the rate and temp at which is vaporizes. Remember, the equipment I have access to measures down to .035mk, which works out to 1/35th of 1/10th of a degree. So stuff is going to act different even by it aging. Juice just has too many variables to control......at first. Not to mention the fact that juice also adds another variable, the wick. Then, for example, we have wick set up, which includes density, type, amount and on and on. I have some ideas for testing juice, but I really need the initial wire/coil data first, IMO.
From what I gathered you need the different wire type temps (brand, gauge, etc). I was then going to move from that and do the different types of coils that people commonly build using just one gauge from the original tests. I could then move from that and use one coil type and one gauge type and do straight VG, PG, and different blend levels and/or do different devices.
I feel like doing it that way removes as many variables as possible during each "round" of testing.
This is going to be an on going project. I own two businesses and have a pretty big family, so my time is limited. However, I want the experience of working on smaller objects, fast heating objects and the other challenges associated with doing this project. So we will get it done.
I think this weekend I will just use one of my set ups I already have and use that as a test bed for the correct set up for my equipment and give some type of initial data.
On another subject, I have access to particle counters. This is not my world of expertise, but if someone wants to set up some sort of testing protocol and design, we could test the silica/ceramic wick questions....or any particle questions within the vapor.
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Well the thread is focused on wire temp, (and watt density) but no one really has shown your capabilities for testing, so the questions could go exponential. While it would be great to test different juices, lets get the core information first, right?
I agree with you on establishing a baseline on a few wire/coil builds. Then, test a few "standard" type wick/juice setups so an initial data set can be developed. While a unified theory of ecig vaporization would be great, I imagine that just the first few tests are gonna change or confirm the majority of what has been hypothesized.
The particulate test would be great! One thing, for example, I have noticed is that the vapor texture produced from a cotton micro coil wick is much different than a AO ceramic wick. While I can get about the same tasted from the same juice, the AO vapor is always slightly thicker and cotton vapor is always slightly wetter. Sounds like you could use a lab assistant. ;D
I agree with you on establishing a baseline on a few wire/coil builds. Then, test a few "standard" type wick/juice setups so an initial data set can be developed. While a unified theory of ecig vaporization would be great, I imagine that just the first few tests are gonna change or confirm the majority of what has been hypothesized.
The particulate test would be great! One thing, for example, I have noticed is that the vapor texture produced from a cotton micro coil wick is much different than a AO ceramic wick. While I can get about the same tasted from the same juice, the AO vapor is always slightly thicker and cotton vapor is always slightly wetter. Sounds like you could use a lab assistant. ;D
What would be interesting to learn is not what we know, but what we dont know. For example, How does different wire gauges of the same wire material (or different wire materials) reach and maintain temperature. What is the effect of different levels of power in the time to reach vaporization temperatures for a particular wire, what is the range of watt density for different wire gauges and what effect does it have....an so on.
Ok, but wire heating in air has been well studied by the wire manufacturers. Dr. G posted that literature a good while ago.
I have only seen Temperature/Amp tables for Nichrome. Is it available for Kanthal?
Also those Nichrome tables are for straight wire only, not coils. Coils are estimated to require half the specified amperage for the temp. But there is no definition as to what a coil is: diameter or pitch.
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