We are going to lose

[VaporPhreak]

Guess I'll chime in with my here...
Personally, I stealth vape indoors. Not because I am trying to be sneaky, but just as a courtesy for others. While there may be nothing harmful in my exhaled vapor it can prove distracting and to some even threatening. Now that being said, I do use my device openly. And when asked, I explain it. I do draw parallels between it and an asthma inhaler, and the only time i mention smoking is when i tell them that this device enabled me to quit smoking without suffering withdrawal and without risking the side effects of many NRTs and medications. When I am outside, I do not stealth because the vapor will dissipate more rapidly, but I also do not confine myself to "Smoking Areas". For instance, there is a large outdoor concert area near me where the local Symphony group preforms several times throughout the summer and fall. We attend very frequently. They have designated smoking areas to which I have refused to go. Security and staff there know me now and know that the device and vapor poses no risk. They nearly ejected me the first time until I pulled the card of asking them if they would then eject anyone who is seen using an asthma inhaler or portable breathing treatment devices as both are known to contain tracers of their delivered medications on exhalation as well. Now I was not mean nor did I pull the "I have a right" card.. I simply proved my point in a calm manner and by drawing parallels they could understand to draw their mind away from the correlation with smoking. Thought the FDA classifies it as a tobacco Product, I think of it and explain it more like medical device, because to me it is.
Now as for "winning" or "losing", we cannot know yet. We have seen so many times over the last few years that we thought it was all over and we had lost only to be pulled out of the fire. I will not give up hope, and I will not give up the fight. And, should vaping be completely banned here in the states I will do what I can to pick up and leave. Not every country can be so stupid as to outlaw it completely. Anyway, just my

 

[wv2win]

This is just my .02 but I think if enough people take the attitude that vaping is harmless and they should be able to do it anywhere they want then yes, we will definitely all lose.

If on the other hand we accord people the basic respect of not asking them to sit in a confined aerea with us as we exhale vapor laced with nicotine (and in their mind who knows what else) then I think we have a better chance.

I'm just happy to have an alternative to smoking, and when I'm vaping in the public arena I follow the same rules of courtesy I do with smoking.

I have always stated that we need to vape openly but respectfully. I don't vape in closed small spaces (like an elevator) with other people present. Your comments make me strongly suspect you believe we vapers should be "shunned" away with the smokers just as if we were the same as smokers even though it is totally two different activities, especially from a harm standpoint. I cannot agree with this position.

The only way we can educate (and it IS our responsibility to educate) the uneducated about vaping is to do it openly but with common sense. The more we politely educate and demonstrate what vaping is and is not, to small business owners and the public in general, the better chance we have of acceptence and differentiating ourselves from our former activity.

 

[wv2win]

As far as out in the public is concerned, I don't vape anywhere I wouldn't have smoked an analog.

I do however vape in my house and car since there isn't the nasty smoke and smell with vaping.

Then you are perpetrating the perception that vaping is dangerous to others and should be banned out-right. There is a common sense and respectful way to vape in public without being shunned to the smoking section of public places.

 

[woolfe99]

I have been vaping for 2 years now. I live in the Bar Area, California, where anti-smoking sentiment is probably higher than the national average. Honestly, I vape in restaurants, theaters, supermarkets, banks, etc. I have had one person complain when I vaped outside (in a line) that he was "downwind" of it. One establishment (a comedy club no less) told me that it was not allowed. The guy seemed to know what it was and didn't personally think it was an issue but the owner had decided to not allow them.

I've had a few people, family and friends, after congratulating me for quitting smoking, ask me when I intend to quit the e-cigs. When I explain that I have no intention of quitting in the foreseeable future and that there is no known serious health risk, they seem to accept the logic of it.

That is the extent of negative feedback I've had in 2 years. The vast majority of all feedback is questions from smokers who are curious if it is a method they should try. Even those have tapered off over the past year since it is getting to where almost everyone knows something about e-cigs.

My experience is that people tend to have neutral to positive impressions of e-cigs and I'm not seeing an ill-informed concern that it is negatively affecting their health to be near me.

I don't think we're going to see more than some local and statewide place restrictions.

 

[Huuwap]

I have always stated that we need to vape openly but respectfully. I don't vape in closed small spaces (like an elevator) with other people present. Your comments make me strongly suspect you believe we vapers should be "shunned" away with the smokers just as if we were the same as smokers even though it is totally two different activities, especially from a harm standpoint. I cannot agree with this position.

The only way we can educate (and it IS our responsibility to educate) the uneducated about vaping is to do it openly but with common sense. The more we politely educate and demonstrate what vaping is and is not, to small business owners and the public in general, the better chance we have of acceptence and differentiating ourselves from our former activity.

I read his comments a bit differently than you did I think. Of course I read area instead of arena as well. But here in Idaho there really isn't a law on where outside you can smoke, as long as you're outside. The state fairs and things as well, as long as you're outdoors you're fine.

I vape in the same places I smoked - bars, my house and outside. I won't vape in somebody's place of business unless I'm told that I can do so, but I very likely won't ask because I don't need to vape through the grocery store or Sportsman's Warehouse. I vape at work at my desk and my boss condones it, often vaping with me; however, I don't vape in front of other co-workers while at my desk, and at the same time I don't hide the fact that I do vape at my desk. The big boss here is an ex-smoker of the worst kind, and I honestly don't know how he'd take to the idea of using a PV on-site or in the building. We have a no-tobacco campus. On this front, I'd much rather ask forgiveness than permission, and if I get caught vaping in my office I'll explain it in the best way possible, and the outcome will still likely be a warning and a verbal "don't do it again".

My reasoning? It's respectful. I don't fart walking down the aisle at the grocery store. I don't let out a loud, satisfied belch mid-meal at my favorite restaurant, I don't light matches and put them out on my tongue repeatedly while at the sporting goods store, I don't do a cartwheel every time I see a sale prive in Wal-Mart, and I don't leave a plume of vapor in my path while in somebody else's place of business. "But it doesn't smell bad and there's no negative effect, etc." - I find some colognes and perfumes extremely offensive while others find them flattering...I can't smell what I'm vaping, so I can't say it smells good, and honestly I can't say with any sort of certainty that you'll like what I'm vaping because it tastes good. I will continue to be respectful and vape where it makes sense for me to vape...but all of you with the "vape everywhere because it's necessary to our cause" rhetoric are just a bit too pushy for my liking. I do believe it is important to educate the general public about vaping, I don't think bringing negative attention (perceived) to yourself in somebody else's place of business is a step in the right direction, you're not going to have 100% success in acceptance by explaining PVs by default, and a negative first impression isn't going to help the case at all.

 

[kristin]

I've had a few people, family and friends, after congratulating me for quitting smoking, ask me when I intend to quit the e-cigs. When I explain that I have no intention of quitting in the foreseeable future and that there is no known serious health risk, they seem to accept the logic of it.

I know you said you got your family to understand this concept, but for anyone else reading, I came up with a pretty good analogy for this question (I am the Analogy Queen, after all, LOL!)

If someone asks you when are you going to quit vaping, because nicotine (or whatever else) could still be bad for your health, you could tell them: "Vaping helps me maintain my smoking quit and has very low health risks. Would you ask a diabetic who lost weight with aerobics when they were going to quit exercising, because all of that jumping around could be bad for their knees?"

 

[kwalka]

Kristin, your photo showed up in my email inbox 2 days ago... I'm one more on board for the cause.

I started this thread the other day in another forum and it didnt get much attention. So here it is:
Hi All,
Two days ago I spent about 4 hrs in a large hospital in Pinellas County Fl. I had an eGo, with a Cartzilla tank hanging from a lanyard, around my neck. I had to go thru pre-op testing, so I was all over the building. I openly vaped the whole time. Everywhere from waiting rooms with people 2 seats away, to a small room with 3 nurses at once, who for an hour failed several times to get blood out of me. I did explain to the nurses what I had, and asked permission. They had no problem. Maybe in retrospect because they felt bad for using me as a pin cushion. In 3 diff waiting rooms, with lots of the general public present, nobody questioned me (6'-2" & 300lbs ?). I've been vaping exclusively for about 60 days and this is the first time I really had to openly vape in public. I was prepared for a hassle, and pleasently pleased with the outcome. This is a fairly conservative area, lots of retirees, snowbirds, etc.

 

[kwalka]

By the way, 2 days later while going thru all the paperwork I brought home my wife found a page that was all about tobacco free campus... at the bottom it said this also includes the use of e cigarettes

 

[woolfe99]

I know you said you got your family to understand this concept, but for anyone else reading, I came up with a pretty good analogy for this question (I am the Analogy Queen, after all, LOL!)

That's a great analogy Kristin. I tell people something similar, what my doctor actually told me. I asked if I should quit (more curious about her response than anything), and she said if you can quit without picking up smoking again, then in a perfect world you should quit. However, if there's even a 5% chance you'll pick up cigarettes again, then don't bother quitting because the health risks are nowhere near comparable. When I inform people that my doctor told me this, that is generally the end of the discussion.

On a related note, I think the reason success rates are not high with other NRT's is pretty obvious. The first clue is in the statistics. Quit rates using NRT's are much better than cold turkey...for the first 60-90 days. At one year they are barely better than cold turkey. Of course, the instructions that come with the NRT products tell the user to discontinue them...after 60-90 days. Clearly, people discontinue the NRT then promptly go back to smoking. Mission failure. I know only 2 people who successfully quit with NRT's: one with lozenges and the other with gum. Both are still using them after many years.

I'm convinced the main reason for the success of e-cigs as a quit method is only partly to do with the hand to mouth mimicry. It's that we've largely flown under the regulatory radar and hence people are not being told to discontinue them. So far.

- wolf

 

[kristin]

Actually, I believe some research shows that the quit success rates are nearly double with cold turkey than with NRT. A recent study indicated that after 6 months, those who quit using NRT and those who quit cold turkey were at the same relapse rate. The often-quoted rate of "doubling" your chances are based on studies with a placebo. The folks taking the placebo didn't know and thought they MIGHT be getting nicotine, meaning that they thought they were getting the "help" or "cure" they needed to quit. The fact is, you don't "need" NRT to quit, so those who don't even attempt to use a so-called "crutch" may have a better advantage using will power. When you go beyond the 6 months mark and interview folks who have quit for many years, ie. long-term former smokers, most of them report they didn't use NRT. According to studies done in 1996 and 2006, 76% to 88% of long-term former smokers quit without NRT.

While the medical and tobacco control communities felt they found the magic bullet connected to smoking - nicotine addicton - the fact that NRT fails so miserably (if it was just nicotine smokers wanted, why don't nicotine gum or lozenges serve as a suitable replacement?) electronic cigarette users are turning that theory on it's head in a more obvious fashion. Just as with NRT, a significant portion of e-cigarette users find "something missing" with e-cigarettes - even with all the vapor, hand-to-mouth and flavors lacking in NRT - and need to use a smoke-free tobacco product in conjunction with the e-cigarettes to keep from smoking again. That undoubtedly shows that for those smokers, it wasn't "just" the nicotine but some other ingredient in actual tobacco. And still other e-cigarette users can easily reduce or eliminate the nicotine and are happy with just the vapor, hand-to-mouth and flavors - so it wasn't all about the nicotine for them, either.

Researchers could learn so much from studying the choices and needs of vapers, but they are still too enamored with their magic bullet of nicotine addiction. They can't get their thick little heads around the possibility that they were wrong and it ISN'T all about the nicotine.

 

[Uncle Willie]

If vendors would pool resources and mount an educational campaign / if definite manufacturing standards were implemented / if liquid all had an ingredient label / if proper instructions were included with any kit /

Then, we would have a much greater likelyhood of winning ..

 

[kristin]

Unfortunately, you could have a dozen studies showing ALL e-cigarettes are 100% safe and all companies are ethical and responsible and the ANTZ still don't like that it "looks like smoking" so will still oppose them.

They banned candy cigarettes for the same reason, for Pete's sake.

For the ANTZ it's not even about safety or health - it probably never was.

(NOT disagreeing with your thoughts about what vendors should still do, though.)

 

[woolfe99]

Actually, I believe some research shows that the quit success rates are nearly double with cold turkey than with NRT. A recent study indicated that after 6 months, those who quit using NRT and those who quit cold turkey were at the same relapse rate. The often-quoted rate of "doubling" your chances are based on studies with a placebo. The folks taking the placebo didn't know and thought they MIGHT be getting nicotine, meaning that they thought they were getting the "help" or "cure" they needed to quit. The fact is, you don't "need" NRT to quit, so those who don't even attempt to use a so-called "crutch" may have a better advantage using will power. When you go beyond the 6 months mark and interview folks who have quit for many years, ie. long-term former smokers, most of them report they didn't use NRT. According to studies done in 1996 and 2006, 76% to 88% of long-term former smokers quit without NRT.

While the medical and tobacco control communities felt they found the magic bullet connected to smoking - nicotine addicton - the fact that NRT fails so miserably (if it was just nicotine smokers wanted, why don't nicotine gum or lozenges serve as a suitable replacement?) electronic cigarette users are turning that theory on it's head in a more obvious fashion. Just as with NRT, a significant portion of e-cigarette users find "something missing" with e-cigarettes - even with all the vapor, hand-to-mouth and flavors lacking in NRT - and need to use a smoke-free tobacco product in conjunction with the e-cigarettes to keep from smoking again. That undoubtedly shows that for those smokers, it wasn't "just" the nicotine but some other ingredient in actual tobacco. And still other e-cigarette users can easily reduce or eliminate the nicotine and are happy with just the vapor, hand-to-mouth and flavors - so it wasn't all about the nicotine for them, either.

Researchers could learn so much from studying the choices and needs of vapers, but they are still too enamored with their magic bullet of nicotine addiction. They can't get their thick little heads around the possibility that they were wrong and it ISN'T all about the nicotine.

Your linked article pretty much reinforces my point though. NRT's are better than cold turkey in the initial early stage, but long term quit rates are pretty similar. Other studies compare 3 month quit rates to one year. The 3-month is usually quite a bit better with NRT's, whereas with the one year, the differences are minimal.

I agree there are other addictive substances in tobacco. Nicotine is just part of the equation. That doesn't mean the nicotine doesn't help. However, it isn't going to help any more if you discontinue it, particularly while you remain psychologically fixated on cigarettes, which for many smokers is their entire life time.

- wolf

 

[kristin]

Other studies compare 3 month quit rates to one year. The 3-month is usually quite a bit better with NRT's, whereas with the one year, the differences are minimal.

- wolf

Except one year is not "long term" in relation to a person's life (it is compared to the length of the average quit, but should that be the standard?) When you get out to truly "long term" quits - multiple years and decades, the vast majority report that they quit cold turkey, not with an NRT.

That article didn't really support that NRT have a higher quit rate in the short term, only that they help WHILE quitting. By 6 months (which is still short term, IMO), when the NRT is supposedly weaned, the smokers are pretty much even on their chances of staying quit.

I meant to say earlier - I hear you about the long term gum and lozenge use. It's been estimated that nearly 40% of former smokers who quit using NRT are still using them. Kind of makes NRT more of a "smoking alternative" like e-cigarettes rather than the nicotine cessation product they are touted as.

 

[VapApe]

We will vape in the hill and the halls We will vape in are cars and take back the bars.

Let this be are finest hour

WHO IS WITH ME!


warning the above vid has some adult language

 

[woolfe99]

I meant to say earlier - I hear you about the long term gum and lozenge use. It's been estimated that nearly 40% of former smokers who quit using NRT are still using them. Kind of makes NRT more of a "smoking alternative" like e-cigarettes rather than the nicotine cessation product they are touted as.

Yes, that's what I'm saying. Nicotine cessation products do not work. Smoking alternatives have a much better chance. And the existing NRT's can work perfectly well as smoking alternatives. E-cigs have the sole advantage of hand to mouth, though even there the gum takes care of some of the oral fixation. The trouble with these products is that they tell people to stop. It's because people can't get it out their head that nicotine is what's really wrong with cigarettes. Not only is it only part of what addicts people to the cigarettes, but it is no part of why they destroy people's heath. Once that prejudice goes away, I suspect that not only would e-cigs be more acceptable, but they'd stop telling people who use existing NRT's to quit using them after 2 or 3 months. This is clearly why these products aren't producing long term quits.

 

[Iffy]

My reasoning? It's respectful. I don't fart walking down the aisle at the grocery store.

Apparently you've never been caught in a Sam's Super Mart when baby back ribs were going for $1.99/lb!

 

[Huuwap]

Apparently you've never been caught in a Sam's Super Mart when baby back ribs were going for $1.99/lb!

Okay, maybe once before....but it was a necessary thing, lmao.

 

[hulsey76]

We are going to lose? Heresy! Blasphemy! Bullocks and shenanigans! Vaping goes far beyond satisfying a nicotine craving - it is my right to choose what I do with my own body - it is my right to live as I see fit - it is my unalienable sovereignty as a free man - no different than free speech and the right to keep and bear arms. HELL no I won't lose that!

If it takes only a ballot, then I'm prepared to vote. But if it takes blood, then I'm prepared for war. That may sound extreme to some people, but liberty is THAT IMPORTANT.

 

[LeAnn]

If you feel the way you do then we will lose, we won't lose if we stick together in numbers, the more people we get to favor vaping the more people that will vote against the bans! I write my congressmen all the time with new facts about vaping and e-cigs and I feel if they don't make analog cigarettes illegal with thier 4000 chemicals then they'd better not make our e-cigs ilegal with only 4 ingredients and besides nic is the only thing in e-cigs that comes close to tobacco so there's nothing they can ban