We Vapers are Screwed!

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tonyorion

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There is a saying that perception is 90% of reality, and we in the vaping community are not perceived well. I am not talking about the subohm vapers who think it is their God given right to blow fogs of their obnoxious blends of ham and eggs or pizza in people's faces. This is far more insidious and will be far detrimental to the vaping community in general

One statement which struck me in the Health Canada letter of intent to close a vape shop in Nova Scotia

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...starts-shutting-down-e-cigarette-vendors.html

I will cite from the newspaper quoted in the ECF thread

""The concept of vapingis one of concern," said Mohammed Al-hamdani, manager of health initiatives with Lung Association Nova Scotia. "It's a renormalization of smoking behavior."

He said people, especially children, might not be able to differentiate between real cigarettes and electronic ones."

Please read the above citation very carefully.

We have had a slew of B&M's open up here in the Grand Rapids, MI area. I check them out once in a while for new hardware and to try their juices. All I see is young people, very young people packed in there.

One pretty young thing at the juice test station asked me what I liked vaping. In a senior moment, I asked her what she smoked. She said she was too young to buy cigarettes (here the age is 18), didn't, and had no intention of ever smoking. She liked the taste of the ecigs that her fellow high school classmates were using and that it was so cool.

These vape shops in Michigan are not doing anything illegal by selling to these young kids; but they are unequivocally unethical and are on the same page with Pharma and Tobacco as far as greed is concerned. The Internet sites at least try to put an age limitation before you can buy anything, but in reality, what control do they have over people lying about their age?

I was stunned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Here is old fart me who found ecigs to break a lifelong deadly habit when nothing else worked, and this teenager who was eager to find something that tasted nice and could get her peer approval.

Big Tobacco and Big Pharma won't even have to try very hard to get public opinion on their side. At the next legislative hearing to discuss regulation, control, and taxation, all they have to do is show a few images of these kids with ecigs to get passed whatever they want passed
 
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suspectK

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Kids will smoke. I thought I was cool when I started smoking at 12-13.. That's just the way "society" is. No matter how solid your argument is, nothing is going to be able to disable the fact that it's cleaner, smells and tastes better, and is seemingly "cooler" to kids when compared to traditional smoking.

But it is total horse :censored: that the store you went to isn't carding people. Regardless if they're using 0-nicotine or not..kids should have to learn the art of finding gas stations or people that will buy them cigarettes. The hustler is a dying bread.. Stores here don't sell to kids. My girlfriend forgot her ID, and I was getting her and myself some crappy liquid waiting on an order. She was getting 0 because she was pregnant, and the guy wouldn't let her pick out a flavor.. technology came into play with the decision via text, so she got to at least pick the flavor that didn't even get used. gross..It was sofa king (we tarded).

I blame facebook. Do I do a hashtag here? or is that a different one? I'm glad to not be in "the know" with that one..
 

northhar

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Apr 18, 2011
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Hold on a minute here<< TO THIS DAY HEALTH CANADA HAS NOT BEEN ABLE TO SHUT DOWN ANY E-ECIG STORE IN CANADA>>...

This is just the media...

Here is a quote from a letter an E-cig store sent back to Health Canada in response to their letter...

We would be very much interested to know what law exactly we are violating by selling e-juice with nicotine in it. If there is a specific law which we are violating, please produce it and we will abide by it.

As it stands currently, e-juice with nicotine is covered under current laws within Canada CCR 2001, and is therefore legal to sell within Canada.

This has been going on for a few years now.. Vaper's in Canada are multiplying and organizing.. and will not go down without many battles.. as I see you Americans doing the same... Life goes on..:vapor:
 
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MD_Boater

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Nov 6, 2013
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Change the title of your post to "We Rational People are screwed".

Folks who use the "renormalization of smoking" argument are simply allowing the rest of us to see the visible symptoms of their own mental deficiencies. It is clearly a cry for help.

First there were smokers and people who wanted them to quit for a multitude of reasons. Some of the reasons were health related, but deep down, there was also the desire to coerce or control other people. The anti smoking crowd "won" that battle. Flat out, they won. Then, along come the vaping crowd. How dare they thwart the anti smoking crowd's desire to control their behavior? You can't do that! Behave as we want you to. Sure, we know this it is NOT smoking. Sure, we know that nicotine is harmless. Sure, we know that there is no impact to non smokers. But we are not going to allow you to live your life the way that YOU want, you must live your life the way that WE want.

I say we join together and use the nuclear option. Now that we have to pay for each others' health care, we (vapers) should press for complete bans on real cigarettes. If you can't beat them, join them. But we know that they really NEED the tax revenues from smoking. They won't do without it. So we should flip the tables, and make a very public effort to get a nationwide ban on all real cigarettes. They kill people, you know. At this point, it would be the government fighting to keep them legal, since they stand to lose the most money in the event that they were banned.

I say we double down, and push for a "fat" tax. $50 per pound on your 1040 for every pound that you are over "standard weight". Overweight people can sometimes smell bad, they "renormalize" eating too much and not exercising enough as a valid lifestyle. It cost more in fuel to drive or fly them somewhere, and they just overall take up more floor space, so we should tax them for that extra usage.

Some monkey once said that vaping was a luxury that should be taxed, I think he was wrong, but going with his logic, extra fat is a luxury and should be taxed. I don't have any extra fat, but I want some. People with more than me should be taxed...
 

wv2win

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CASAA and I believe most vapers, support age requirements for buying e-liquid with nicotine. A long time kiosk vendor I talked to stated he cards anyone who looks younger than 30.

But, he presented me with an interesting dilemma. He has parents asking him to sell them a kit for their 16 & 17 year old children who smoke so the kids can break their smoking habit. Is this any different than selling the nicotine patch, gum, inhaler, etc to a parent for their under-age smoking child? I can definitely understand the parents wanting to try anything to get their kids off analogs.

On the surface, under-age vaping would look like a "black & white" issue. But there are always wrinkles that we don't always consider.

(the example of the kid just wanting to be cool, well, I hope those situations are few because they are not good for the community)
 

skoony

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Jul 31, 2013
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wait one,
i'm calling you out on this one.
i want names,dates and places.
i cannot conceive of any bm letting minors in the door let alone
letting them sample product no legal age or not.
vendors cannot be that stupid as not to stick there finger in the wind
to see which way the winds blowing.
besides no reputable supplier would sell to them.

there's more to this regards,
mike
 

Vaslovik

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Jul 5, 2013
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Right on MD_Boater!!!! It's all about control-freaking and having power over your fellow human beings to force them to live as you tell them. There are few things in this world I hate so much as a stinking control-freak! I think social control-freaking should be a crime and punishable by prison time with other control-freaks. Throw them all in a prison and let them fight it out among themselves. If we arm them too the population of control-freaks would decrease rapidly. Just throw them all in a place with a high wall around it and give them all knives. I'd love to watch that!
 
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stylezuk

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Nov 16, 2013
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See totally your point and it just will bring down a fall on the "honest" "Eligible" smokers old farts like our serfs and again I'm a long time smoker turned to vape for health reasons and also financials but way over the legal age, in the UK i haven't noticed young people vape'n but there is a craze of these people that only vape to get around the smoking rules, the ones that will go into establishments bars etc and just vape not thinking of the outcome that they will make for "honest" vapers people who vape for a reason and not just to get around regulations, gets right on my .... seeing someone vapeing while in a bar eating / drinking and then next minute you see them out side on a analogue. They'll be the reason that we'll end up regulated.
 

skoony

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I understand that in most places, it is legal for minors to buy and consume non-alcoholic beer.

So what would be the logic for prohibiting minors from non-nicotine vaping?

We claim it's safe right?
for all the obvious reasons.
have you read any of the posts on this forum?

i did some fact checking and michigan does'nt have any laws at all concerning ecigs.
here a good page with a state by state break down.
E-Cig State Laws: Current and Pending Legislation

just because its legal doesn't mean you should do it.
what do you think the reaction would be if i opened a store that sold
virgin alcoholic drinks to minors as the only product?
i know some bar/restaurants will serve so called virgin strawberry margaritas and such
but that doesn't make it right.
in wisconson you can drink with your parents.
the places I've worked at wouldn't allow it as it
is the perception it gives.
how about my new candy? its in powder form and you have to snort it.
that's the ticket.

regards
mike
 
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pelton54

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Oct 16, 2013
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wait one,
i'm calling you out on this one.
i want names,dates and places.
i cannot conceive of any bm letting minors in the door let alone
letting them sample product no legal age or not.
vendors cannot be that stupid as not to stick there finger in the wind
to see which way the winds blowing.
besides no reputable supplier would sell to them.

there's more to this regards,
mike

I will also be calling you out, as I am a michigan resident.
I try to make it to as many B&M stores in my state as I can just to check them out, ALL of them that I have been to have clearly visible 18+ signs in the windows, and to be honest I've never seen anyone in any vape store in Michigan that looks any younger then 30.
There are two very popular juice company's in Michigan (three is you count grimmgreens conpany) but only two have store fronts which are both extremely professional.
I'm 25 with a full beard and I even got carded at one of them.


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Diogenes

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Nov 5, 2013
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But, he presented me with an interesting dilemma. He has parents asking him to sell them a kit for their 16 & 17 year old children who smoke so the kids can break their smoking habit. Is this any different than selling the nicotine patch, gum, inhaler, etc to a parent for their under-age smoking child? I can definitely understand the parents wanting to try anything to get their kids off analogs.

I also support the age limit on vaping. Should kids be vaping? No. Should they be smoking? Absolutely not! But it happens.

The problem with selling to someone who's buying for their kids is that you cannot control what the end-user is going to do with the product. Sure, the store *might* get in trouble for selling if the buyer said this was for someone under 18, but odds are it wouldn't happen. But, if the buyer doesn't say, "This is what my 9 year old son wanted for his birthday..." the seller has no idea what the buyer is going to do with the kit. Plausible denyability.
 

pelton54

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Oct 16, 2013
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I understand that in most places, it is legal for minors to buy and consume non-alcoholic beer.

So what would be the logic for prohibiting minors from non-nicotine vaping?

We claim it's safe right?

Is this a fact?
Because even "non-alcoholic" beer still has alcohol in it.....just under 1%


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pelton54

Moved On
Oct 16, 2013
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I am not a bear person, but the way I understand it, there is near-beer (some alcohol) and non-alcoholic beer with no alcohol.

I'm glad your not a Half human half bear type of person!

That could be true I never really looked into it I just know me and my buddy's picked up a pack once as a joke and it still had .3% alcohol


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wv2win

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I also support the age limit on vaping. Should kids be vaping? No. Should they be smoking? Absolutely not! But it happens.

The problem with selling to someone who's buying for their kids is that you cannot control what the end-user is going to do with the product. Sure, the store *might* get in trouble for selling if the buyer said this was for someone under 18, but odds are it wouldn't happen. But, if the buyer doesn't say, "This is what my 9 year old son wanted for his birthday..." the seller has no idea what the buyer is going to do with the kit. Plausible denyability.

I also support age restrictions for selling e-liquid with nicotine. But being a parent, I also understand what these parents appear to be trying to do: get their 16/17 year old away from smoking. I cannot fault them if that is their goal. I also applaud the vendor who recognized that selling a kit under these circumstances is not "black & white". He recognized the "moral dilemma".

Hopefully most parents are just smart enough not to state why they are buying the kit. Yet this is all a "slippery slope". What if the kid was vaping in the park, a cop stopped him and asked him where he got the kit? Should the parent's be condemned and punished for providing the kit to their kid so he won't smoke? It's not black and white.
 
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