What if listed chemicals are bad ?

[Stonemull]

we had a new member on our local forums start a little ....storm with a post, apparentely .. he has done his research and come to the conclusion vaping is too risky, so he can't recommend it to anyone.

pushed (lol hammered, poor guy) for info, there are links to a vendor claiming .. (I am not going to name them here, google the text below, it was a cut and paste..)


1% – Acetylpyrazine is used as a composition of flavoring, especially in baked foods and chocolates. (Used for our Chocolate flavored cartridges.)

now the MSDS for that is https://fscimage.fishersci.com/msds/09577.htm

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. The toxicological properties of this substance have not been fully investigated.


0.5% – Ethyl Acetate

MSDS : http://www.sciencelab.com/msds.php?msdsId=9927165

Potential Acute Health Effects:
Hazardous in case of ingestion, of inhalation. Slightly hazardous in case of skin contact (irritant, permeator), of eye contact (irritant).


Now I know reading MSDS's is a bad thing, water inhaled is obviously fatal, let alone an irritant.
The first quote may be a blanket cover for not tested at all yet.
But just what to tell people .. are these ingredients a bad thing ?

 

[Stonemull]

bump ... anyone have an opinion ?

 

[KevNewEngland]

bump ... anyone have an opinion ?

I'll take whatever questionable effects vaping has on my health over analogs any day. I KNOW smoking is deadly, and I sure as hell ain't going back to those. Besides, since quitting them a year ago, I feel better than ever. vaping hasn't affected me in any way. (that I know of, but still)

 

[kwalka]

bump ... anyone have an opinion ?

I believe the member named "kurt" is a chemist... I will see if I can get him

 

[kwalka]

I just sent him a PM with the link to this thread. We'll see.

 

[Samyaza]

So a quick look show's me that:

Acetylpyrazine is also found in cigarettes (not sure what %)

And so is Ethyl Acetate found in cigarettes, it's also found in wine as well sometimes.

I am going to work on the assumption that neither of those are worse for us vaped than they would be smoked (I am not a chemist, but nothing here rings alarm bells).

 

[Hoosier]

?Shrug?

Drinking too much water will kill a person, so is water bad?
Inhaling too much oxygen will kill a person, so is oxygen bad?
Flouride and chlorine are deadly toxins, so should we leave our water supply untreated?

Simply, everything can damage a human body at some level. People who cannot/will not decern the difference between dangerous and less hazardous should do us all a favor and lock themselves into a bubble. Of course the outgassing of the polymers that the bubble is made of shouldn't concern them at all...

 

[JungleAgent007]

I am not a chemist or a doctor. I'm an analyst. I analyze data and make recommendations for the path with the lowest risk.
I'll take some food additives over carbon monoxide, benzine, formaldehyde, acetone, tar and ammonia any day.

 

[markfm]

On acetyl pyrazine, see: http://www.healthnz.co.nz/RuyanCartridgeReport30-Oct-08.pdf Look at Page 23.

 

[kwalka]

Inhalation: May cause respiratory tract irritation. The toxicological properties of this substance have not been fully investigated.

In my chemically ignorant opnion, Does this statement not refer to inhalation in the form of a powder?

I just googled and followed up on it... Here ya go, DONT ever eat, drink, cook with, smell, or even look at anything with any kind of chocolate or vanilla. Also, never bake or eat anything baked again.

In all seriousness, to the OP, thanks for the heads up. Until somebody spends some serious $ on real research, we need all the feedback we can get.

 

[Kurt]

I don't have a lot of medical knowledge of these compounds, but...

Most fruit flavors have esters in them, if they are not esters themselves. Ethyl acetate is pretty common in fruit flavorings. It is also the compound now used in nail polish remover, since it is far safer than acetone. Is it safe to inhale all the time? Probably not, but one would need to know how much there is...if that is information that one could intelligently use.

I have had coughly problems with a couple chocolate-type flavorings. Perhaps it is from acetylpyrizine. More of a throat tickle than mucus, so I stopped using the flavorings. capella choc english toffee was one. shame, since it was really tasty.

A lot of the flavorings we use are irritants. Clove and cinnamon are extreme examples. If a flavor is causing me throat or mouth or lung issues, I stop using it, simple as that. Some chocolate flavorings I have used make me cough...correction made me cough, so I stopped using them.

Fact: not all flavors are going to treat you well. And it depends on the person. Some here love to have their heads blown off by cinnamon. Some, like me, get a sore throat and mouth sores from it. I like cinnamon, but I cannot use it... pretty much at all, including eating it.

Just because a flavor is considered safe enough for food doesn't mean you can vape it non-stop. Pay attention to your body. There are 1000s of flavorings out there. Life won't end if you find there are some that don't agree with you. That includes excess mucus production, excessive dryness, gastric issues, sores, achy chest and throat, etc. If any of these things happen, I cut that flavor out, period. In fact, most of the time I vape unflavored juices, or else one or two flavors I know are ok for me.

How your body reacts to a flavor compound is largely dependent on you. There is no black and white here. There is only you and some flavoring. If its ok for you, great. If it is not, don't use it, move on to something else. For me its as simple as that.

 

[Stonemull]

hey thanks for the replys, all pretty much the same conclusions we came up with.
pretty much,

its all in smoke anyway ... but the levels may be different.
don't live in a bubble.. the plastics toxic..
avoid stuff that irritates.

I also find a lot of flavours irritate me, usually sneezing, then a really itchy throat. a couple seem to leave me with a heavy chest the next day, many of the fruity ones give me damn heartburn, likely me guts at fault there..

I think I may avoid the chocolate ones more than i do now. i tend to use tobaccos motly but I think flavours crreated with tobacco absolute are the sneezy ones for me.
it just seems odd to me that these are chemicals being flaunted as safe, whereas in actual fact they may well be not so great and thats just from one supplier with only a few flavours.
its kind of irritating to say the least. perhaps some wise vendor would do well to come up with a truly safe vape not just say 'organic' (i truly hate that word) ..

i tend to vape weaker flavours antway, I also have no real favourite, vape whatever is up next. I would reckon a few days on a nastier juice would be offset mostly by a few months of not using it again.

sometimes i wonder if maybe sticking to dekang is not the safest option of the lot.

 

[markfm]

I'd tend to find what doesn't bother me and just stay with it, give away or sell what doesn't agree with me. Life's too short to muddle through vaping something that causes any ill effects.

Concerning Dekang, that's classic PG. While many of us are absolutely fine with it, some people just can't vape PG -- things ranging from general discomfort through to headaches, blurred vision. It's not a vaping thing, per-se -- PG really is widely used, including as a base in various medicines, just that some people are sensitive to it; my sister, for example, has to be careful with skin lotions, since many of them have PG.

Similar holds true for VG -- I know someone who breaks out in a rash vaping even fairly low levels of VG.

 

[Hoosier]

... perhaps some wise vendor would do well to come up with a truly safe vape not just say 'organic' (i truly hate that word) ..

There are vendors who have come up with such a thing. Look up Bottled Air.

The air around us has all kinds of stuff, both naturally created and man-made, in it that is not "truly safe" to inhale.

Life is a risk, but death is perfectly safe. Pick the life you want and have at it.

 

[Stonemull]

heh, I didn't say I would be buying it .. just that it could be sage advice for a vendor.

I am 50+ .. what me worry mate

I don't think many vapers put more than a passing thought into it either.

 

[Kurt]

"Organic" is a dicey term with juices. PG will never be "organic", even though technically it is an organic compound, since it has C atoms in it. But in terms of organic produce, which are grown with certain pesticide restrictions and non-GMO organisms, PG is synthesized, and so the "organic" label is not applicable. VG, on the other hand, can be organic, since it can be made from organically grown palm. I have found the best VGs are organic in origin.

Flavors are a different thing entirely. The vast majority of flavor compounds are synthesized. So unless they are created from some extraction from an organically-grown plant, the "organic" label is a misnomer.

"Natural" flavors can also be synthetic. Natural Banana Flavoring is isoamy acetate, and is NOT taken from bananas, but since it IS the compound that contributes the most to the flavor of a banana, it is officially natural banana flavor.

I believe there are legitimate organic flavorings out there, but they are generally concentrated extracts, and not pure flavor compounds. They are meant for foods and/or drinks, not vaping, since they will have lots of sugars and other biomolecules in them. Don't ask me what they will do if heated to vaporization and inhaled. Thermal decomposition to God knows what is likely, and we were not built to inhale proteins and poly-saccharides, let along the soup of compounds formed with high heat. If the flavors are called organic, and they are simple flavor compounds, and not extracts, then it is misinformation.

And no juice that uses PG should be called organic. Organic foods have a certificate with the producer that officially states the food is organic because it passes certain criteria. You are not supposed to claim organic unless those criteria are met and certified.

 

[OneDayIllQuit]

'Organic' has other downsides too. In the fragrance world for example (very similar to flavors in many ways) the musk scent that is always popular and included in the recipe of many fragrances used to be organic. That meant you had to kill a musk ox to get a gland about the size of a tennis ball that contained the scent. Synthetic musk is much more acceptable and doesn't harm anyone

 

[kwalka]

IMHO, the word organic has become a label that can be purchased with the right amount of $, and the American public, with their green way of life are buying into it hook, line and sucker. Until there is some true, unbiased testing and research done, when I see that word on a product, I think exactly what I stated above. Whole Foods has become a billion dollar business, just to be exposed for being BS. Unless your part of a local co-op, and you know and see where your products are coming from, your trusting the label that has been bought and paid for.
Dont get me wrong, I have 4 kids and my 2 oldest boys are scouts, and I am an off and on leader when I have the time. We recycle, in fact in our city we have to pay like $3 or 4 a month just so the recycle truck will stop and p/u the bin.

 

[Digital-Dragon]

Great thread! Though I kinda want to start vaping unflavored liquid now... I've done it, and it's just ok...

Kurt, you mentioned that the best vg in your opinion is organic. This is really interesting to me as I asked Annette at Vergin Vapor about why she does not use organic vg even though all her eliquids are organically flavored, and she replied that organic vg is less refined, and therefore not as good to vape... What do you make of that?

I diy now, so I'll have to give organic vg a try... Since you really seem to know what your talking about, Kurt.

 

[Kurt]

There is organic USP grade VG, but its a bit pricey. About $5 for 4 oz. Heritage brand is organic and USP, and the best I have had. NOW brand is the one I use currently, is not organic, but it is USP, and very pure. About $11 for 16 oz from Amazon, but iHerb has it for about $6. Its made from palm, AFAIK.

I don't know about organic being less refined, since if it is USP grade it has to meet certain purity criteria.

CVS/Humco glycerin may or may not be made from plants (generally palm or soy). It may be made from animal fat. Its ok in a pinch if you run out of good VG, but I have found it can sometimes have a plastic taste. NOW is always really good, although Heritage is a touch better, but not so much to make the extra $$ worth it. Here is another organic VG USP:

Pure Organic USP Grade Vegetable Glycerin 18 by blackbutterfly621

Way too expensive for me, but probably very good.

What is very good in VG? No taste at all, just slight sweet. You can get Heritage at Whole Foods. They may carry others too.