What is wrong with you?

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Tinkiegrrl

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Child proof caps and packaging? I'm sure that will be the end of vaping... Never bought anything from a b&m in the US... If people really want to quit with e-nic, pretty sure everything they need is available on the internet...

While there are some extremists here, it doesn't do any good to deny that there isn't a risk of e-cigs as we know them to be outlawed. Here in NY, we have a senator who is trying to outlaw ALL e-liquid that contains nicotine. I've read the bill myself. Why? Because there has been a minuscule jump in the number of phone calls to poison control regarding children being exposed to it. They call it a jump of 300% but when you take it into context with the numerous other calls poison control receives regarding other common household products and medications, liquid nicotine exposure is nearly a non issue. Now, how many people died of exposure? One, and that person intended to die. He chose to commit suicide by injecting the stuff. He left a suicide note and everything. These things are being used to propose draconian laws and regulations and they are being brought to the floors state legislatures around the country. I disagree with many people on this board regarding openly vaping absolutely everywhere, but there IS a real issue regarding the laws that are being proposed and claiming that this is all fear mongering does no one any good either.
 

CabinetGuyScott

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And so the trolls have finally invaded this intellectually fueled conversation, and spewing their drivel on everything.

And based on recent experience, there are more to come.

Just remember folks: Don't feed the trolls!

The most effective strategy to really really drive trolls crazy: ignore them!

Anyone have an image of a troll foaming at the mouth & writhing on the ground in momentous frustration? :lol:
 

stevegmu

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While there are some extremists here, it doesn't do any good to deny that there isn't a risk of e-cigs as we know them to be outlawed. Here in NY, we have a senator who is trying to outlaw ALL e-liquid that contains nicotine. I've read the bill myself. Why? Because there has been a minuscule jump in the number of phone calls to poison control regarding children being exposed to it. They call it a jump of 300% but when you take it into context with the numerous other calls poison control receives regarding other common household products and medications, liquid nicotine exposure is nearly a non issue. Now, how many people died of exposure? One, and that person intended to die. He chose to commit suicide by injecting the stuff. He left a suicide note and everything. These things are being used to propose draconian laws and regulations and they are being brought to the floors state legislatures around the country. I disagree with many people on this board regarding openly vaping absolutely everywhere, but there IS a real issue regarding the laws that are being proposed and claiming that this is all fear mongering does no one any good either.

None of these bans have passed. I can't imagine any will. Politicians come up with crazy legislation to appease constituents, which they know will never pass. How can anyone seriously think e- juice will be outright banned? Child proof caps, age restrictions and a limitation on strength are all they may ever come to fruition.
 

Jman8

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So if some of us disagree with your argument or parts of your argument ( and many obviously do based on how many threads like this have we seen now that are almost bullyish and everyone who disagrees gets attacked or criticized) and you continue on with these attempts at "shaming" fellow vaper threads--- doesn't that make you guilty of stepping on my liberty to have my own opinion on vaping and act upon my opinions and not be subjected to the ones you are trying to force upon me?

Nope. It's called heated discussion. It's in reply to comments that suggest we should not vape indoors because it is inherently rude and obnoxious. Your position will get attacked and criticized if you are rolling over on this issue. You are entitled to your opinions and many anti-indoor vapers voice this, as if it is a "we" thing, and so that gets called out.

You cannot force anyone to feel as you feel about anything that is a basic principle of "liberty" you guys seem to have forgotten with your harsh words about how naive and misguided anyone who may disagree with you is.

Nice tactic, but inaccurate in way you are presenting it.

Maybe we just see things differently than you do. Period---deal with it.

Right back at you.

There are alot of things I don't do out in public and I don't consult fellow vapers about those things--this should be no different. I don't like extremists on any subject who think only their opinions are valid and vaping is no exception. Its just a general turn off to see threads like this and does not win people over.

This "general turn off" isn't presented a "your opinion" and is assertion that attempts to speak for all via reasoning. You enter into the debate, so be prepared for your position to be criticized.

As far as what will happen at the very least the nicotine will be regulated and taxed eventually no matter how loud you yell---it is inevitable. We don't have the twenty year studies necessary or backing of the medical community/ powers that be to support our "its safe" theory at least not yet. And even if we did they would still find an excuse---the children---etc-- as it all comes down to the almighty dollar --one of those pesky side effects of a capitalistic society. You must always feed the machine and the machine is always looking for an opportunity to be fed. If thinking this makes me a bad vaper to you guys then so be it---I call it being realistic. Am I happy about it no but that is another thing entirely.

Again, none of this is stated as opinion but as points up for reasonable discussion. I think some of what you are saying is inevitable, but the shaming part from fellow vapers is the part that makes most sense on a vaping forum to squarely address.

If you take issue with vaping indoors, I take issue with that position. Period. Deal with it.

And to the OP, to answer your question there is nothing wrong with me, I just have different opinions than you.

Masking general assertions as opinions and trying to play offensive under false guise of honest defense, is how you say, disingenuous.
 

stevegmu

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Interesting. I'm pretty sure a FB friend in Netherlands just asked friends to help her get some eliquid because she can't purchase it online & there are not stores to buy it from. So, you are incorrect about that.

I was clearly not referring to vaping in The Netherlands.
 

wv2win

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So if some of us disagree with your argument or parts of your argument ( and many obviously do based on how many threads like this have we seen now that are almost bullyish and everyone who disagrees gets attacked or criticized) and you continue on with these attempts at "shaming" fellow vaper threads--- doesn't that make you guilty of stepping on my liberty to have my own opinion on vaping and act upon my opinions and not be subjected to the ones you are trying to force upon me?

You cannot force anyone to feel as you feel about anything that is a basic principle of "liberty" you guys seem to have forgotten with your harsh words about how naive and misguided anyone who may disagree with you is. Maybe we just see things differently than you do. Period---deal with it. There are alot of things I don't do out in public and I don't consult fellow vapers about those things--this should be no different. I don't like extremists on any subject who think only their opinions are valid and vaping is no exception. Its just a general turn off to see threads like this and does not win people over.

As far as what will happen at the very least the nicotine will be regulated and taxed eventually no matter how loud you yell---it is inevitable. We don't have the twenty year studies necessary or backing of the medical community/ powers that be to support our "its safe" theory at least not yet. And even if we did they would still find an excuse---the children---etc-- as it all comes down to the almighty dollar --one of those pesky side effects of a capitalistic society. You must always feed the machine and the machine is always looking for an opportunity to be fed. If thinking this makes me a bad vaper to you guys then so be it---I call it being realistic. Am I happy about it no but that is another thing entirely.

And to the OP, to answer your question there is nothing wrong with me, I just have different opinions than you.

No matter how "loud" you yell with your big, bold print, I in no way was stepping on your liberty by expressing my opinion against those who support bans on vaping.

The only ones "stepping on other's liberty" are those who support the enactment of laws taking away other's current liberties.

So, let's see, for you, expressing an opposing opinion is "stepping on a liberty" but supporting the enactment of a law banning vaping is not.

Good luck with that farcical reasoning.
 

CabinetGuyScott

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No matter how "loud" you yell with your big, bold print, I in no way was stepping on your liberty by expressing my opinion against those who support bans on vaping.

The only ones "stepping on other's liberty" are those who support the enactment of laws taking away other's current liberties.

So, let's see, for you, expressing an opposing opinion is "stepping on a liberty" but supporting the enactment of a law banning vaping is not.

Good luck with that farcical reasoning.

You and the JMan (post #165)are the best! :rickroll:

But you score 5 bonus points for the exquisite use of the word farcical in a sentence! :thumbs: :thumbs:


:pop: :pop:
 
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Jman8

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Proposals don't equate to enforceable law. Nothing has happened. If little Timmy can't vape at Target or the courthouse, too bad. Just because BLU said you can vape anywhere doesn't make it so...

The third assertion contradicts the second one. If Timmy can't vape in Target, when reality shows that he can, but is forbidden from doing so, it is precisely because something has happened to suggest that Timmy NOT BE ALLOWED TO vape at Target. Reality is, Timmy can still do it, and that if Timmy is a wee bit wise to how vaping works, no one will even notice.

But, as people are getting "wise" to vaping, they are also getting fear mongered themselves. You wanna go on record here in this thread and say that no one in the general public is believing bad (highly inaccurate) things above vaping? I'd love to see you go in that direction. Especially considering we have vapers who believe highly inaccurate information about vaping indoors.

It's one thing if an opinion is, "I do not like it when I vape indoors" Or, "I do not like it when other people vape indoors." That's opinions. But you step outside of opinion and into reasonable debate when you assert, "no one should vape in a hospital because it is wrong to do so." That is not an opinion. Try to pass it off as one and then claim later that you were merely expressing your humble opinion, plus feign hurt feelings because someone addressed that assertion with direct reasoning, and perhaps you'll see the distinction between mere opinion and misguided assertions.

I don't expect to be allowed to vape everywhere, but that will not change my current position and advocation for vape everywhere, because I really do care about politics of vaping, and how that pertains to basic principles of liberty.

And reason I keep harping on this particular issue which is around 3rd most important on my personal scale of critical vaping issues is because this one is able to take vapers and have them shame fellow vapers. And it is the shaming aspect that is worse, IMO, than the legality aspect. Smoking is (for the most part) still legal, but it is highly shameful. I am outright saying that the shaming of an activity is worse than the legalities of the same activity.

It is also clear from opposition's tactics, seeing that they are losing on the science of this particular issue, that shaming is the tactic they have chosen to run with. Go read any of the post in Media section that bring up what opposition is saying today, or yesterday, about vaping. Almost all of it is geared toward shaming and guilting vapers into quitting or curtailing their usage. I would say ALL current usage bans are based ENTIRELY on the shameful aspect of vaping, and not on something dealing with reasoning, science or current reality. I mean even on these type of threads for a fellow vaper to make it seem palatable that an indoor ban make sense, we have to resort to hypothetical reality of 20+ vapers in a tiny enclosed, poorly ventilated space, for it have any chance of making some sense as to why not to vape in that hospital room. Thus, even vapers (of the anti-indoor usage variety), can't deal with current reality where it is 1 vaper in a place causing literally no issue with their vapor.

Timmy may not be allowed to vape in Target (even while Timmy still could, but that's another matter) because those around Timmy have been sold a pack of lies. That vapor is plausibly dangerous. Akin to secondhand smoke. That secondhand vapor contains evil nicotine, and lots of other toxins (like stuff they put in antifreeze!) and thus if you see Timmy in Target vaping, bust him! He has done gone acted uncivilly, and must be called out for his shameful actions. Once you agree to this, then hopefully you'll realize this is why we need to raise insurance rates on these shameful users of this shameful product. This is why this particular activity needs a sin tax associated with it. This is why we need to deny employment to these uncivilized people.

If you believed us on the lies we sold you about smoking and secondhand smoke, then heck we ought to have no problem swindling your feeble mind into the dangers of vaping. I mean no one knows for sure what's in those things which that alone is reason enough to shame them and to continue pointing out how dangerous they probably are. We don't know they are, but they probably are, cause nobody know they aren't.

Bonus points (to us) if you are a vaper and you buy into our lies. Makes our job around 50 times easier. Oh and thank you to all you ex-smokers for shaming current smokers for their entirely uncivilized actions. You are like a god-send to us!
 

wv2win

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The third assertion contradicts the second one. If Timmy can't vape in Target, when reality shows that he can, but is forbidden from doing so, it is precisely because something has happened to suggest that Timmy NOT BE ALLOWED TO vape at Target. Reality is, Timmy can still do it, and that if Timmy is a wee bit wise to how vaping works, no one will even notice.

But, as people are getting "wise" to vaping, they are also getting fear mongered themselves. You wanna go on record here in this thread and say that no one in the general public is believing bad (highly inaccurate) things above vaping? I'd love to see you go in that direction. Especially considering we have vapers who believe highly inaccurate information about vaping indoors.

It's one thing if an opinion is, "I do not like it when I vape indoors" Or, "I do not like it when other people vape indoors." That's opinions. But you step outside of opinion and into reasonable debate when you assert, "no one should vape in a hospital because it is wrong to do so." That is not an opinion. Try to pass it off as one and then claim later that you were merely expressing your humble opinion, plus feign hurt feelings because someone addressed that assertion with direct reasoning, and perhaps you'll see the distinction between mere opinion and misguided assertions.

I don't expect to be allowed to vape everywhere, but that will not change my current position and advocation for vape everywhere, because I really do care about politics of vaping, and how that pertains to basic principles of liberty.

And reason I keep harping on this particular issue which is around 3rd most important on my personal scale of critical vaping issues is because this one is able to take vapers and have them shame fellow vapers. And it is the shaming aspect that is worse, IMO, than the legality aspect. Smoking is (for the most part) still legal, but it is highly shameful. I am outright saying that the shaming of an activity is worse than the legalities of the same activity.

It is also clear from opposition's tactics, seeing that they are losing on the science of this particular issue, that shaming is the tactic they have chosen to run with. Go read any of the post in Media section that bring up what opposition is saying today, or yesterday, about vaping. Almost all of it is geared toward shaming and guilting vapers into quitting or curtailing their usage. I would say ALL current usage bans are based ENTIRELY on the shameful aspect of vaping, and not on something dealing with reasoning, science or current reality. I mean even on these type of threads for a fellow vaper to make it seem palatable that an indoor ban make sense, we have to resort to hypothetical reality of 20+ vapers in a tiny enclosed, poorly ventilated space, for it have any chance of making some sense as to why not to vape in that hospital room. Thus, even vapers (of the anti-indoor usage variety), can't deal with current reality where it is 1 vaper in a place causing literally no issue with their vapor.

Timmy may not be allowed to vape in Target (even while Timmy still could, but that's another matter) because those around Timmy have been sold a pack of lies. That vapor is plausibly dangerous. Akin to secondhand smoke. That secondhand vapor contains evil nicotine, and lots of other toxins (like stuff they put in antifreeze!) and thus if you see Timmy in Target vaping, bust him! He has done gone acted uncivilly, and must be called out for his shameful actions. Once you agree to this, then hopefully you'll realize this is why we need to raise insurance rates on these shameful users of this shameful product. This is why this particular activity needs a sin tax associated with it. This is why we need to deny employment to these uncivilized people.

If you believed us on the lies we sold you about smoking and secondhand smoke, then heck we ought to have no problem swindling your feeble mind into the dangers of vaping. I mean no one knows for sure what's in those things which that alone is reason enough to shame them and to continue pointing out how dangerous they probably are. We don't know they are, but they probably are, cause nobody know they aren't.

Bonus points (to us) if you are a vaper and you buy into our lies. Makes our job around 50 times easier. Oh and thank you to all you ex-smokers for shaming current smokers for their entirely uncivilized actions. You are like a god-send to us!

Excellent analysis on the "shaming tactic" and how it relates to the ultimate goal of both legal vaping bans and self (shaming) vaping bans. I can see some on ECF thinking, "oh, heck, Jman really understands our main tool for manipulation. We must find a way to eliminate him from posting!"
 

stevegmu

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The third assertion contradicts the second one. If Timmy can't vape in Target, when reality shows that he can, but is forbidden from doing so, it is precisely because something has happened to suggest that Timmy NOT BE ALLOWED TO vape at Target. Reality is, Timmy can still do it, and that if Timmy is a wee bit wise to how vaping works, no one will even notice.

It looks like smoking, which is why little Timmy can't vape at Target or the courthouse... If vaping everywhere and anywhere is the be all end all issue with the extremists, they are in for a rude awakening. Maybe there is a law against vaping in public in some areas. So what? Suddenly former smokers who could wait for an appropriate time and place to smoke suddenly can't wait to vape? Is vaping more addictive than smoking?
 

VapieDan

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"It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace²but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"

Patrick Henry March 23, 1775

It seems history does indeed repeat itself and yes there is a high cost for liberty. Are we willing to accept the toll for freedom?
 

wv2win

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It looks like smoking, which is why little Timmy can't vape at Target or the courthouse... If vaping everywhere and anywhere is the be all end all issue with the extremists, they are in for a rude awakening. Maybe there is a law against vaping in public in some areas. So what? Suddenly former smokers who could wait for an appropriate time and place to smoke suddenly can't wait to vape? Is vaping more addictive than smoking?

Way to miss one of the main points of Jman's response. The more relevant point is whether taking away current liberties is addictive. Is allowing individuals and property owners to make their own decisions on what activities are appropriate more important or should the government make these decisions for us. Or absent scientific proof of harm, should opponent's use manipulative shame tactics to force your beliefs on others if possible. Why do you believe that you and the government should be the arbiter of what is appropriate behavior for a non-harmful activity?
 
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VapieDan

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Yes, I am a little concerned with what might be the final outcome to the e-cig industry ... But I am just as worried about what the government is going to do with people (like myself) that own one of these:

RtSide3.jpg



Or one of these:

Trigger2.jpg




Basically, I am fighting two battles right now ... The E-cigs and the semi-auto guns!

I noticed immediately the liaison between 2nd Amendment rights advocates and Vaper's rights followers. I fear both are lost causes. When a government becomes so large and so strong there is no recourse but the replacement of such a government by either peaceful or more dire methods. The foe of both causes is the apathy which has been so well instilled.
 

stevegmu

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Way to miss one of the main points of Jman's response. The more relevant point is whether taking away current liberties is addictive. Is allowing individuals and property owners to make their own decisions on what activities are appropriate more important or should the government make these decisions for us. Or absent scientific proof of harm, should opponent's use manipulative shame tactics to force your beliefs on others if possible. Why do you believe that you and the government should be the arbiter of what is appropriate behavior for a non-harmful activity?

What country do you live in, if you think the erosion of liberty and freedom hasn't happened already, and by design?
 

wv2win

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What country do you live in, if you think the erosion of liberty and freedom hasn't happened already, and by design?

I will take that, appropriately so, as a "white flag" to my response to your post. You can roll over and play dead if you choose, some of us prefer the "good fight" regardless of the opponent's strengths and manipulative tactics.

Thank goodness you were not around in 1776.

(thanks, VapieDan for reminding me!)
 
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