What state is the ECA registered in as a Business League?

[JustJulie]

Babachoo--I guess there's a lot of confusion about 501(c) status. The business owners who join the ECA will be able to deduct their contributions as business expenses, but there is no deduction available to non-business folks who might contribute.

In this case, "not for profit" basically means that the ECA won't be paying income taxes unless it has unrelated business income.

And, yes, there is often a significant lag time between the filing of necessary paperwork and when the application gets approved. In fact, unless things have changed substantially over the last several years (and I doubt it has), it often takes months for applications to even show in the records that they've applied.

Finally, the Chairman of the Board is often viewed kind of like the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court--the first among equals, with only one vote like the rest of 'em.

 

[Babachoo]

Babachoo--I guess there's a lot of confusion about 501(c) status. The business owners who join the ECA will be able to deduct their contributions as business expenses, but there is no deduction available to non-business folks who might contribute.

In this case, "not for profit" basically means that the ECA won't be paying income taxes unless it has unrelated business income.

And, yes, there is often a significant lag time between the filing of necessary paperwork and when the application gets approved. In fact, unless things have changed substantially over the last several years (and I doubt it has), it often takes months for applications to even show in the records that they've applied.

Finally, the Chairman of the Board is often viewed kind of like the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court--the first among equals, with only one vote like the rest of 'em.

How would any business be able to deduct membership fees as business expenses if the ECA is not a proven registered 501c6 though? I'm aware of delays, but if they aren't even a registered 501c6, then don't you think it's highly unethical to be asking for donations before their application has even been considered by the proper authorities? Personally, I wouldn't even donate money to a church that hasn't made public their 501 status, MUCH LESS a business league, even if they said they had already applied. I wouldn't contribute a single penny unless they could prove that they were accepted and in good standing as a 501 organization first.

Speaking of the Chairman, exactly who elected the board of directors? How were they chosen? Or were some founding members just adamant about what position they wanted, so they got it, or what? Nobody has answered any questions about how the board was selected, so that would be nice to clear up too. And since by your logic, all board members are equal, would Jack Leadbeater have a problem giving up his chair position if the general consensus was against him being in that position?

 

[JustJulie]

How would any business be able to deduct membership fees as business expenses if the ECA is not a proven registered 501c6 though? I'm aware of delays, but if they aren't even a registered 501c6, then don't you think it's highly unethical to be asking for donations before their application has even been considered by the proper authorities? Personally, I wouldn't even donate money to a church that hasn't made public their 501 status, MUCH LESS a business league, even if they said they had already applied. I wouldn't contribute a single penny unless they could prove that they were accepted and in good standing as a 501 organization first.

Honestly, I don't know all the ins and outs, but the bottom line is that, no, it's not terribly uncommon for organizations to solicit funds after application but before approval (and sometimes even before application). A disclosure is made to donors that the application is pending.

There are all sorts of rules associated with deductions of contributions by businesses to 501(c)(6) organizations, and I suspect that the savvy business owner will fully explore those before committing huge sums of money towards this venture. If I had any concerns as a business owner looking to join the ECA, I think I'd probably be having those types of discussions privately and not necessarily on a public forum.

For the average individual like me, someone who doesn't have a business and who won't get a tax deduction, I simply don't care. And honestly, I think this portion of the forum, the one open to the public, isn't really intended for the business owners who are interested in joining--there's a private forum for that, I believe, and I suspect there's a fair amount of discussion going on in there.

Speaking of the Chairman, exactly who elected the board of directors? How were they chosen? Or were some founding members just adamant about what position they wanted, so they got it, or what? Nobody has answered any questions about how the board was selected, so that would be nice to clear up too. And since by your logic, all board members are equal, would Jack Leadbeater have a problem giving up his chair position if the general consensus was against him being in that position?

Again, I personally don't care because I can't join the organization and become a member. In answer to your question, though, there's got to be an initial board for the entity to form, and the way it typically happens is those who are involved at the time simply come to a consensus. Yup, it really is that simple. If the people who are involved at the time don't like it, then they take their ball and go home.

Now, for people coming onboard AFTER the organization has formed, what they typically are concerned about is how the board and officers are selected going forward. And if one is interested in becoming a member, I think that would be a fair question to ask.

As for whether the present Chairman of the Board would be willing to step down, how in the heck would I know? That's just kind of silly.

 

[Babachoo]

Julie,

Firstly, thanks for trying to answer questions, you seem like a really helpful person and I appreciate your time here. But seeing as you don't represent the ECA, I'm still hoping for official answers from them, because I'm even more confused now. The ECA has made claims that they are indeed a 501c6, meaning that they have applied and were accepted, I think I even saw that maybe they initially applied for a 501c3 but were granted a c6 instead. But seeing as they haven't been able to post a link to their accepted 501c6 status, and it appears that you seem to be conceding that they haven't been granted 501 status at all, it just makes me wonder why people (probably not many, but still some) are donating at this point when they're basically (if the above is true) just handing money to people who are only claiming to have nonprofit status, but could legally go out and buy a new car with the "donations" at this point since they (still assuming above is correct) still have no legal status with the secretary of state or office of the secretary in D.C.

You would think that this glaring fact, that until they prove that their application was granted they're basically taking donations that are equivalent of handing some random person off the street a bunch of money just because that random person says that they will spend your hard earned money wisely.

The rest of the questions I had would best be answered by the ECA as well, but thank you for doing your best despite not being a representative of theirs. And as far as the "keep it all private" sentiment, I couldn't disagree more. So far there has been little to no transparency, so even less would kill off any chances they have at fundraising. I still can't believe that people have donated anything at all without some sort of proof that they are recognized by the government as a 501c6 like they claim they are.

 

[Angela]

The bottom line is, they are forming a trade association and it is purely up to the members to sort out how it is run etc. In short, as consumers, you do not have a say in it.

Questions / constructive criticism / positive suggestions - fine, but quite frankly this reads like a witch hunt.

Yes they have asked for outside donations for this particular fight. If you are happy to give, then give.... if you're not, then don't! No-one is forcing you one way or the other.

 

[JustJulie]

You're right, Babachoo--I don't speak for the ECA, and, frankly, I have no more knowledge of its inner workings than any other non-member. I just have a fair working knowledge of how not-for-profits in general tend to operate. So ECA may or may not have received its exemption. I simply don't know.

But again, for the average guy, the status doesn't really make any difference. I mean, it doesn't matter if ECA is or isn't tax exempt--it won't make any difference to me in terms of my contribution.

until they prove that their application was granted they're basically taking donations that are equivalent of handing some random person off the street a bunch of money just because that random person says that they will spend your hard earned money wisely.

I guess I just don't see it that way. I am familiar with some of the suppliers who have joined and/or supported ECA, and those whom I know, I feel pretty darned confident about their integrity. So, no, it's not like donating to a random person on the street.

You've obviously got a problem with ECA, and I appreciate that it's not an organization that everyone is going to feel comfortable supporting, but I guess I just don't know why you seem so relentless about this.

Didn't you say at one point that there's nothing ECA could say to change your mind? (That might be a faulty paraphrase, but I'm just going on memory here.) If so, why waste time on this? I don't know . . . it just seems like such a waste of time and passion to be over here beatin' on this particular drum.

But it's your time and passion.

 

[Babachoo]

You're right, Babachoo--I don't speak for the ECA, and, frankly, I have no more knowledge of its inner workings than any other non-member. I just have a fair working knowledge of how not-for-profits in general tend to operate. So ECA may or may not have received its exemption. I simply don't know.

But again, for the average guy, the status doesn't really make any difference. I mean, it doesn't matter if ECA is or isn't tax exempt--it won't make any difference to me in terms of my contribution.



I guess I just don't see it that way. I am familiar with some of the suppliers who have joined and/or supported ECA, and those whom I know, I feel pretty darned confident about their integrity. So, no, it's not like donating to a random person on the street.

You've obviously got a problem with ECA, and I appreciate that it's not an organization that everyone is going to feel comfortable supporting, but I guess I just don't know why you seem so relentless about this.

Didn't you say at one point that there's nothing ECA could say to change your mind? (That might be a faulty paraphrase, but I'm just going on memory here.) If so, why waste time on this? I don't know . . . it just seems like such a waste of time and passion to be over here beatin' on this particular drum.

But it's your time and passion.

I just don't understand why they can't even answer our questions if they have nothing to hide. What if I was a supplier whose sales were through the roof right now and I had a few very inside connections in D.C. that could easily influence 22 senate votes if they were presented with solid paperwork to review? You never know who you're talking to and who is listening, or in the case of forums, watching. I've given them plenty of chances and time to straighten up their act and present themselves in a professional manner. Thus far, they have failed to do so, so yes, I am researching alternatives at this point.

But despite my personal feelings, it is my right to point out the gaping holes in their ship to make everyone else aware before making decisions with their hard earned cash, and to neutrally notify the organization that there are some things that need addressed before full confidence can be won. I charge nothing for my education services, nor ask for anyone to condemn nor blindly accept anything. I just make people aware of things that are very pertinent for them to make their own decisions. And if the ECA doesn't like that type of thing, which they clearly don't up to this point, then it further informs the general public about what type of people they are handing their money to.

 

[Angela]

What if I was a supplier whose sales were through the roof right now and I had a few very inside connections in D.C. that could easily influence 22 senate votes if they were presented with solid paperwork to review?

Well, if you are, you are breaking forum rules already. Plus, if you were, I'm sure you would have the sense to contact them in a more traditional and formal manner rather than on a public forum.

 

[Babachoo]

Well, if you are, you are breaking forum rules already. Plus, if you were, I'm sure you would have the sense to contact them in a more traditional and formal manner rather than on a public forum.

Why is it that those of you in the minority that approve of the ECA in its current state insist that keeping everything private is so sensible? When asking questions of an organization that is claiming to be a nonprofit but cannot provide any proof of it, for the sake of transparency, I would think it would be quite sensible for them to quickly answer these questions and prove to everyone that they are legitimate, so that the questionable issues could be laid to rest for good and their efforts could earn the respect of those who have asked questions and have more people on their side, thus increasing fundraising and word of mouth advertising for them. Methinks that it's your logic that is flawed and your sensibilities that are tainted.

 

[Boston George]

When asking questions of an organization that is claiming to be a nonprofit but cannot provide any proof of it, for the sake of transparency...

Look Babachoo, we get it, you dont like the ECA and are deeply paranoid about its intentions. I still don't understand why this is the case but I have giving up trying to understand your motivation.

They have said time and time again that the paperwork has been submitted and is being processed. How about you chill for a week and stop repeating the same post over and over.

Or is waiting for a week too long?

Furthermore, I want you to state that you will drop this Crusade against the ECA once they show you proof that it is infact a nonprofit. Fair?

 

[Babachoo]

Look Babachoo, we get it, you dont like the ECA and are deeply paranoid about its intentions. I still don't understand why this is the case but I have giving up trying to understand your motivation.

They have said time and time again that the paperwork has been submitted and is being processed. How about you chill for a week and stop repeating the same post over and over.

Or is waiting for a week too long?

Furthermore, I want you to state that you will drop this Crusade against the ECA once they show you proof that it is infact a nonprofit. Fair?

If you don't understand my motive, perhaps you should simply reread my last couple of posts where they were clearly stated. And yes, once it is proven that they are already registered as a nonprofit who will have to spend the donations they have already received in a responsible manner conducive to their stated mission to lobby for the rights of Ecig suppliers, then I will cut them some slack in regards to that issue. I don't have a crusade against them, but I find it a bit strange that they wouldn't want to win as many hearts and minds as they could as quickly as possible by providing proof that they're not making any more false statements (in this case by stating that they are a registered nonprofit, if in fact they are not).

But there will still remain many issues that have been brought up by myself and others that have still not been addressed, like why some of their official documents and posts here on the forums look like they were typed by someone using Babelfish with no spellchecker. But substantiating their claims one by one with proof, and by answering questions directly rather than avoiding them altogether, attacking those asking the questions and questioning their motives, or sending their thugs and lackeys to do the attacking, this can only improve their standing with users here at the ECF and with the general public abroad. And for me to continue harping on issues that have been properly addressed would be completely illogical and would therefore not happen since I'm not here to make myself look like a fool. I'm just here to talk about ecigs and help make sure that people aren't being mislead by self-elected "officials".

 

[Angela]

Why is it that those of you in the minority that approve of the ECA in its current state insist that keeping everything private is so sensible? When asking questions of an organization that is claiming to be a nonprofit but cannot provide any proof of it, for the sake of transparency, I would think it would be quite sensible for them to quickly answer these questions and prove to everyone that they are legitimate, so that the questionable issues could be laid to rest for good and their efforts could earn the respect of those who have asked questions and have more people on their side, thus increasing fundraising and word of mouth advertising for them. Methinks that it's your logic that is flawed and your sensibilities that are tainted.

Babachoo: You have quoted me and stated "you in the minority that approve of the ECA in its current state": I have repeatedly stated (but you must have missed) that I am not in full support of the ECA and that yes, it is right to ask questions / offer constructive criticisms / helpful suggestions... what I am opposed to is the general harranguing, badgering and hassling nature in which this witch hunt is being pursued.

 

[nycsublimegirl]

I did not read through what has conspired on the thread since my last post, so I am not commenting on anything that has been said... Just wanted to give an update on the filing.

It will take 4-6 months for the 501c6 listing to appear in the public listings This is the normal turn around time from the government. That being said I should have the actual documents to post tomorrow.

 

[iiimathman24iii]

LOL

some people just HATE anything with a 3 letter acronym...

FBI, CIA, DEA, ATF, FDA, TNT, CBS, ABC, BBC, IRS, etc...

you all should have went with a 4 letter acronym like...

ECAA - electronic cigarette association of America... that would silence the TRI-BASHERS!!! but then again you would have to worry about the QUAD-HATERS... you can never win... i like what you all are doing though personally... any respectable trade has some sort of association that governs it and puts its "SEAL" of approval on products or outlets or... whatever...

CHILL OUT MAN...(sarcasm to follow) that sniper that's had his sights on you from your neighbor's tree who is part of the underground Russian mafia running drugs for Ted Bundy's sister is probably sleeping on the job because he got bored watching you post...

PEACE

 

[Babachoo]

I did not read through what has conspired on the thread since my last post, so I am not commenting on anything that has been said... Just wanted to give an update on the filing.

It will take 4-6 months for the 501c6 listing to appear in the public listings This is the normal turn around time from the government. That being said I should have the actual documents to post tomorrow.

Thanks for an official answer, though I'm still confused about in what capacity you represent the ECA. Are you a board member or just a member or what? I assume a board member but not sure what position you hold. Maybe changing your sig or custom title to say "ECA Vice President" or whatever title you hold would make things easier for everyone. But thanks for the reply and I look forward to seeing you post the documents tomorrow, that should clear everything up regarding your status as being an accepted and recognized 501c6, and clear the way for more donations.

 

[Terraphon]

ok...I haven't read this whole thread but I have been given a heads up by people that have.

I cordially invite the mods / admins to trace the IP of the person that some people think may be me. Look for proxy servers, look for originating IP addresses.

Do it...NOW.

Once it is proven that I have nothing to do with this thread or any fallout thereof, I expect a full and public apology from the people using my name and making accusations.

Period...end of report.

Make it happen.

EDIT : While we're at it, let's make sure that all of the people here are legit. Let's make sure that nobody is using a second account to post anonymously. If this is the case, I expect bans to happen most rikki tik.

 

[Walrus]

Well cursory examination shows Babachoo using AT&T internet services in Plano, TX with Terraphon using Cox out of Phoenix, AZ.

Too early in the morning for anything in-depth.

 

[SpaceCadet]

I have no idea why anyone though babachoo was terraphon! Good to see ya back T, I was missing the ridiculously cute avatar too!

 

[Kate]

That's the problem when people use multis to kick up trouble, it creates paranoia and nobody knows who they can trust.

Some multis have been used against ECA but I've not seen anything to suggest Terraphon has been involved in anything dishonest.

 

[Babachoo]

I wouldn't mind an apology either. Not only for the insinuation that I have another account or am Terraphon or whoever, but for the idiots who jump in when Person A asks Organization B a question and Person C destroys the thread like a bull in a china shop, throwing insults and accusations all over the place. It makes the ECA look bad, as though they hire goons to come and to discredit anyone who has simple questions about their organization.