Which is less harmful for health?

[PeterKay]

The TRUE reason why I might come across as if vaping for me borders a spiritual experience is quite simple. It's because everyone who shares my personal views and personal preferences in vaping even just a little bit has left this place after systematically having been teargassed by the wattage police. As for humans being able to sense harm, I'm sure it doesn't apply to vaping when it comes to the long-term effects of inhaling food flavorings. But when it comes to the harm caused by overheating juice, which is what I was referring to when talking about localized heat buildup inside a coil, it does apply to me. I am hypersensitive to the characteristics of what vapor I get when juice overheats. It's all part of what makes me HSP. You read up on HSP you'll find the answers.

I don't think you should give up on this place man. Because you have a lot of knowledge and experience that should be shared, and vapers with different styles shouldn't separate themselves from one another. Besides the folks who aren't too happy about the things you write about, and the folks that are simply not interested , there is always going to be a few that are willing to learn and try new things, and versatility and progress in vaping should never die out, otherwise everything that happened in vaping world so far will be lost. The evolution (and revolution) that took place in under 2 decades that is. I gotta go to bed, night

 

[PeterKay]

he TRUE reason why I might come across as if vaping for me borders a spiritual experience is quite simple. It's because everyone who shares my personal views and personal preferences in vaping even just a little bit has left this place after systematically having been teargassed by the wattage police.

Oh yeah before I go to bed, just to clarify. I wasn't talking about the way you refer to mtl vaping, I was talking about the way you describe your vaping experience, pretty extraordinary I'd say. Night

 

[dripster]

Could you not though (theoretically speaking), having an appropriate setup, achieve a similar vape quality at low wattage compared to high wattage? If you used an mtl rda, low nic and good quality liquid or nic salt liquid, and a microcoil that would match the quality and complexity of the sophisticated coils build for normal-sized RDA's? In other words- high wattage vaping on a micro-scale to match different vaping style? I imagine to copy some of the coplex coils, and make a micro version of them, wouldn't be posible for human eyes and hands. But what if it was machined?

Vape quality is part science, part subjectiveness. Human perception of inhaled vapor, the characteristics of the vape that we can taste and feel, is skewed by cross-modal sensory processing, as well as is skewed by our memory, also including imprints we have kept within our memory that we aren't consciously aware of keeping. Personal preferences are personal, and you can't just tell a person to change his/her own preferences about vaping styles. That would be like claiming blue is obviously a much nicer color than green... meet the color police. Oh yea, oops...

 

[evan le'garde]

The question is "Which is less harmful for health?".

 

[Skunk!]

Either way it's safer than smoking.
As far as MTL/DTL, I like both.

.16 ohm octocore under the hood.

 

[dripster]

All that energy could be used to fight the common enemy:

They ARE fighting a common enemy: high wattage vaping, and anything that smells like it could be about high wattage vaping.

 

[dripster]

The question is "Which is less harmful for health?".

It depends.

 

[440BB]

They ARE fighting a common enemy: high wattage vaping, and anything that smells like it could be about high wattage vaping.

My vaping style is shared by few here but I understand that the majority of vapers don't prefer it, just as the majority of vapers don't go to 90+ watts. It is foolish to expect a general vaping forum to focus on my particular preference.

Claiming all the high wattage vapers left ECF and that there are high wattage police is just petty whining as far as I'm concerned. There are plenty of all types of vapers here. Not too long ago low wattage vapers were regularly chastised as being obsolete.

Our common enemy is those who want to constrict vaping, as well as those who choose to divide us.

 

[dripster]

My vaping style is shared by few here but I understand that the majority of vapers don't prefer it, just as the majority of vapers don't go to 90+ watts. It is foolish to expect a general vaping forum to focus on my particular preference.

I DON'T expect a general vaping forum to focus on my particular preference. Instead, in a place like this, I expect the wattage police to systematically keep teargassing anything that even smells like it could be about high wattage vaping, and, so far, my expectation has never been wrong.

Claiming all the high wattage vapers left ECF and that there are high wattage police is just petty whining as far as I'm concerned. There are plenty of all types of vapers here. Not too long ago low wattage vapers were regularly chastised as being obsolete.

Yea, just keep denying it... just like I had EXPECTED.

Our common enemy is those who want to constrict vaping, as well as those who choose to divide us.

 

[dripster]

Health impact of electronic cigarettes and heated tobacco systems

Studies have shown that reduced risk nicotine products have much reduced biological impact and considerably lower level of combustible toxicants biomarkers compared to cigarettes, but their impact with respect to substantiation of their reduced risk potential or harm reversal in long-term real-life use is virtually unexplored. In trying to address this knowledge gap, Newland et al. [25] have recently designed and launched an ambitious randomized, multi-centre, controlled clinical trial. Their working hypothesis is that following a 1-year switch from cigarettes to a heated tobacco product, participants are expected to experience favorable changes in health effect indicators associated with smoking-related disease development. Data from this study will be a valuable addition to the growing body of evidence on reduced risk nicotine delivery systems in general and heated tobacco products in particular. But we will have to wait until 2020 until the trial is scheduled to be completed.

Statistical analysis plan for “A randomised, controlled study to evaluate the effects of switching from cigarette smoking to using a tobacco heating product on health effect indicators in healthy subjects” - ScienceDirect

Intention to publish date: 2 December 2020

FDA's intention to ban virtually all vaping products: 9 September 2020.

Good luck...

 

[PeterKay]

Statistical analysis plan for “A randomised, controlled study to evaluate the effects of switching from cigarette smoking to using a tobacco heating product on health effect indicators in healthy subjects” - ScienceDirect

Intention to publish date: 2 December 2020

FDA's intention to ban virtually all vaping products: 9 September 2020.

Good luck...

Look at who funded this study, makes me think that the timing might be intentional

 

[Doffy]

Health impact of electronic cigarettes and heated tobacco systems


Statistical analysis plan for “A randomised, controlled study to evaluate the effects of switching from cigarette smoking to using a tobacco heating product on health effect indicators in healthy subjects” - ScienceDirect

Intention to publish date: 2 December 2020

FDA's intention to ban virtually all vaping products: 9 September 2020.

Good luck...

That is not vaping. It is heat not burn, like iqos and the likes

 

[PeterKay]

That is not vaping. It is heat not burn, like iqos and the likes

Hey Doffy, both are discussed in the first paper. But you're right, the second paper is not about vaping whatsoever, vaping is only mentioned in the introduction lol! I briefly scrolled through and missed that
So.. looks like Big Tobacco is looking for a replacemnt for vaping once it gets banned?

 

[PeterKay]

I could bet money that this was all planned a long time ago

 

[PeterKay]

I'm never, ever EVER EVER EVER going to go back to smoking, or in fact putting even a penny inside these .......s' pockets! Never!

 

[evan le'garde]

I would agree with Dripster if he were talking about the "industry" and not the vaping community focusing their attention on high powered hardware. But one obvious fact to me is that the industry is positively focused on Sub Ohm Atomizers and has been for a year or two now. 90% or so of the atomizers being manufactured are either Drippers (RBA) or Sub Ohm Tanks. My A-Z is full of them: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/atomizers-a-z.877969/page-34 . They are dominating the market and are mainly all i find when researching new atomizers.

Maybe Dripster should take that into account and consider the possibility that the existing vaping community he speaks of knows it and doesn't like it. And that's probably why he see's the veteran vaping community advocating low powered vaping. Low powered vaping needs to be advocated at this time.

If what Dripster is saying is accurate then the industry wouldn't be manufacturing such a huge selection of Sub Ohm Tanks and RBA's.

So in fact the actual "reality" is the exact opposite of Dripster's virtual one.


And just to reiterate my first post in this thread:
"If vaping is 90% less harmful than smoking, which it is, then what does that other 10% do to a vapers health ?. So if vaping is that harmful, then the more vapour the more harmful. Right ?."

And i think that answers the OP's question right there.

 

[dripster]

I would agree with Dripster if he were talking about the "industry" and not the vaping community focusing their attention on high powered hardware. But one obvious fact to me is that the industry is positively focused on Sub Ohm Atomizers and has been for a year or two now. 90% or so of the atomizers being manufactured are either Drippers (RBA) or Sub Ohm Tanks. My A-Z is full of them: https://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/threads/atomizers-a-z.877969/page-34 . They are dominating the market and are mainly all i find when researching new atomizers.

Maybe Dripster should take that into account and consider the possibility that the existing vaping community he speaks of knows it and doesn't like it.

Have you considered the notion that, maybe, just maybe, the industry caters heavily to high wattage vapers simply because there are a serious lot more high wattage vapers out there than the wattage police so desperately keep wanting everyone to believe?

And that's probably why he see's the veteran vaping community advocating low powered vaping.

The REAL reason why I can see it is because virtually anyone with an internet connection can see it too.

Low powered vaping needs to be advocated at this time.

It doesn't. Instead, what needs to be advocated at this time is that the constant spreading of falsehoods about high wattage vaping is exactly what makes the ANTZ (Anti Nicotine and Tobacco Zealots) love the living snot out of the wattage police and all the flagrant lies that they profess.

If what Dripster is saying is accurate then the industry wouldn't be manufacturing such a huge selection of Sub Ohm Tanks and RBA's.

They manufacture a huge number of these types of products because a huge number of people want to buy these types of products. That's because a huge number of people like these products. What's terribly wrong with that? Do you want people to buy more products that they don't like? I mean, seriously? The reason so many high wattage vapers have left this place is because they wanted people like you out of their face. Get out of my face.

So in fact the actual "reality" is the exact opposite of Dripster's virtual one.

Keep dreaming. You might get popular on here.

And just to reiterate my first post in this thread:
"If vaping is 90% less harmful than smoking, which it is, then what does that other 10% do to a vapers health ?. So if vaping is that harmful, then the more vapour the more harmful. Right ?."

Wrong. There is no scientific evidence to support the claim that vaping is 90% less harmful than smoking. Instead, there is overwhelming evidence to support the claim that the hazard to health arising from long-term vapor inhalation from the e-cigarettes available today is unlikely to exceed 5% of the harm from smoking tobacco. That's an important difference right there, and, no, there is no scientific evidence to support the claim that vaping products that produce more vapor per puff are inherently more harmful. Keep living the dream.

And i think that answers the OP's question right there.

And I think it should be amazingly very clear by now the fact that, at the time when I tried to point out that I can fairly accurately sense the level of harm, the wattage police jumped on me for my being unable to provide any substantial evidence to back up my claim, when the reality is that I didn't make my claim until AFTER the wattage police had already failed to back up theirs. I think that answers the relevant question of who here is the pot that's calling the kettle black. And, if I may be so bold to say so Sir, I've got better things to do than hang out with a bunch of obvious hypocrites because, like I previously said, I am a realist. Like most vapers are.

 

[englishmick]

They manufacture a huge number of these types of products because a huge number of people want to buy these types of products. That's because a huge number of people like these products. What's terribly wrong with that?

I haven't seen a lot of info on who buys what. I do recall reading that a large majority of what people use is pods and Juul type gear. Don't know if that's true, but I could easily believe that rebuildables and the stuff that gets talked about here is a small hobby end of the total market, and that most vapers want something they can just buy and stick in their mouths. A bit like cameras. Most people want point and click. A small group get into the fancy gear.

A lot of the vendor emails I get these days are full of pod stuff. For a long time most of them were for high power gear. I had to put in some effort to find the low power gear I like.

I like to tootle around with a KFL on a Provari or an old Silver Bullet. I know I'm a part of a tiny subgroup of vapers. When I was working in a hotel there were a lot of young vapers working in the kitchen who all used high powered devices. But I maybe have known 20 other vapers in real life. Not a big sample. Are there any reliable numbers out there?

 

[DaveP]

For me, my former smoking habit is something negative. Why would I want to match my vaping to something negative, when, clearly, vaping isn't? I mean, wouldn't that be detrimental to my vape experience? Had the vape experience not been noticeably more pleasurable to me than smoking, I would still be smoking. Possibly I would be dead as a consequence of not having stopped smoking. Vaping trying to mimic smoking is a recipe for disaster. A lot of times vapers suggest that the low wattage, restricted DL vaping style more closely matches smoking. You should see the look on their face when I reply to them, "How many smokers do you know are sucking on their cigarette for like 7 whole seconds?" Whereas with a true MTL setup, all I get is sheer nic harshness with almost no flavor. So then, I match my vaping to vaping, not smoking. Because I am a realist.

Matching my former smoking habit would involve vaping like I once smoked. I can vape in places where I couldn't smoke. So, I find myself vaping much more often. I could probably transition back up to 24mg juice, but would I soon be vaping much more often than I smoked, just because I could?

It's worth a try. If I end up vaping way too much nic I can always cut back. At 3mg nic strength my vape is in my hand or my pocket all the time.

Back on topic, I think that vaping is pretty much harmless as a substitute for smoking.

 

[DaveP]

More ejuice with less nicotine sub ohm,or less ejuice with more nicotine and using pod system?

Personally, I think mouth to lung at 10W is safer than direct to lung at high wattage. Mouth to nose is probably better than either of the other methods.