Which is less harmful for health?

[evan le'garde]

It's called a vaping hobby for a reason. Some (or most) people just want to vape and that's basically it, they care about convenience and cost so they aren't as picky about the vape experience, or they don't notice that much of a difference in the vape experience, if any.

I can't imagine it getting any better. I use great RTA's.

A dark liquid, i mean a liquid that's been sitting around for months dark, will kill a wick before the tanks empty (4/4.5ml). Whereas a much lighter almost clear liquid will kill a wick after about four times that. It's never any bother though. I mean it's routine. I just don't want it to be complicated and time consuming. I simply don't have the time for it. What i do now may well be routine but that's just a small part of a regular day which is normally routine from the moment i wake up until i go to sleep. Everything i do throughout the day is routine. I'd never get anything done if it wasn't.

 

[englishmick]

It's called a vaping hobby for a reason. Some (or most) people just want to vape and that's basically it, they care about convenience and cost so they aren't as picky about the vape experience, or they don't notice that much of a difference in the vape experience, if any.

Yeah. I've been using the same 1.2 ohm 3.0 kanthal coils at 10 to 14W since I started. Same coil in KFLs Lemos STMs, mods and mechs. Didn't try many different tanks. It's simple and you can't go far wrong.

However I just got a BB and made a scary leap onto the dark side with a 0.9 coil running at 18W. Nice tasty vape so far. Maybe I've started on the slippery road to ruin.

 

[dripster]

I dunno but you did (why are you asking me anyway, don't you even know what you wrote. ). But your attitude is that MTLers are doing it wrong because they should be DTLing.

Absolutely not! This is purely a matter of personal preference. My point was that those who are new to vaping should be encouraged to find out what their own personal preferences truly are like, as opposed to be encouraged to stick with low wattage vaping per se. High wattage vaping isn't the holy grail, but that doesn't also mean that low wattage vaping is the holy grail. It isn't, and, those who are new to vaping shouldn't be told all kinds of pertinent mistruths about high wattage vaping. The assertion that high wattage vaping will ALWAYS give you a hot vape is a prime example of such a pertinent mistruth. The assertion that big clouds can NEVER be about high end flavor performance is yet another prime example.

 

[evan le'garde]

Official? There's nothing 'official' about it, just when people talk about high wattage vaping, typically what they are referring to is DL at something like 90 watts or higher, could be a lot higher than that, could also be a tad less depending who you ask, but certainly not a lot less.

There's a distinction between MTL higher wattage vaping and DTL high wattage vaping and are two diferent categories of vaping. I understand that.

 

[evan le'garde]

Absolutely not! This is purely a matter of personal preference. My point was that those who are new to vaping should be encouraged to find out what their own personal preferences truly are like, as opposed to be encouraged to stick with low wattage vaping per se. High wattage vaping isn't the holy grail, but that doesn't also mean that low wattage vaping is the holy grail. It isn't, and, those who are new to vaping shouldn't be told all kinds of pertinent mistruths about high wattage vaping. The assertion that high wattage vaping will ALWAYS give you a hot vape is a prime example of such a pertinent mistruth. The assertion that big clouds can NEVER be about high end flavor performance is yet another prime example.

When you talk about how wrong people are for advocating MTL low wattage vaping, a novice may quite understandably automatically conclude that you are singing the praises of high power sub ohm vaping. Unless you are prepared to go into all the necessary details in a long drawn out post, one which they're prepared to read, then you run that risk. If everything could be explained in a concise way then you'll stand a good chance for them to understand.

 

[dripster]

I can't imagine it getting any better. I use great RTA's.

A dark liquid, i mean a liquid that's been sitting around for months dark, will kill a wick before the tanks empty (4/4.5ml). Whereas a much lighter almost clear liquid will kill a wick after about four times that. It's never any bother though. I mean it's routine. I just don't want it to be complicated and time consuming. I simply don't have the time for it. What i do now may well be routine but that's just a small part of a regular day which is normally routine from the moment i wake up until i go to sleep. Everything i do throughout the day is routine. I'd never get anything done if it wasn't.

I find that cleaning and rewicking an RDA takes less effort and time than cleaning and rewicking an RTA. In the flavor department, with the vast majority of juices I like, the best RDAs that I own perform noticeably better than my Reload RTAs (I own four of them) and my Isolation RTA. Only with some juices I like, it is the opposite (e.g., Jam Monster). The reason why I don't own any other RTAs is, either they give worse flavor, or the flavor is on par if I wick them so lightly that they start to leak. The RTAs are great for when I only want to use one hand, but that almost never happens so, neither my RTAs nor my squonkers get used often. (I'm a lot lazier than you might think.)

 

[evan le'garde]

I find that cleaning and rewicking an RDA takes less effort and time than cleaning and rewicking an RTA. In the flavor department, with the vast majority of juices I like, the best RDAs that I own perform noticeably better than my Reload RTAs (I own four of them) and my Isolation RTA. Only with some juices I like, it is the opposite (e.g., Jam Monster). The reason why I don't own any other RTAs is, either they give worse flavor, or the flavor is on par if I wick them so lightly that they start to leak. The RTAs are great for when I only want to use one hand, but that almost never happens so, neither my RTAs nor my squonkers get used often. (I'm a lot lazier than you might think.)

If i need to re-wick, regardless of whether i have any juice in the tank i'll open it up, rinse the base and the deck under the tap quick, dry it, dry burn it, then re-wick and maybe clean the tip. And a Prime is a lot easier to wick than what i've been using which is a K4. All told maybe ten minutes. And then i'll top it off. As i said before, it is routine and not something i can't be bothered to do.

 

[dripster]

When you talk about how wrong people are for advocating MTL low wattage vaping, a novice may quite understandably automatically conclude that you are singing the praises of high power sub ohm vaping. Unless you are prepared to go into all the necessary details in a long drawn out post, one which they're prepared to read, then you run that risk. If everything could be explained in a concise way then you'll stand a good chance for them to understand.

In a place that is persistently being overrun by the wattage police, it is next to impossible to have a meaningful, in-depth conversation about the various pros and cons of high wattage DL and of DIY complex coil building specifically for high wattage DL. They'll just deny that they're the wattage police, even after everyone with an internet connection can see that they are recommending MTL or highly restricted low wattage DL while systematically knocking on both high wattage DL and complex coils... till hell freezes over twice. Case in point: it's not about "if they turn out to be the wattage police", but instead, it's about "if it turns out that high wattage DL is more harmful". See? Classical-old ANTZ behavior. In practically every discussion thread that even smells like it could be about wattage, no less.

 

[PeterKay]

Omg I was going to reply but with so many posts... I'm not sure where to start

 

[smacuser]

 

[dripster]

I dunno but you did (why are you asking me anyway, don't you even know what you wrote. ). But your attitude is that MTLers are doing it wrong because they should be DTLing.

You don't know where I wrote it? Do you want me to tell your where I wrote it? Okay, I'll tell you where. Nowhere.

 

[PeterKay]

My gut tells me that the surface temperature of a coil is not homogenously spread, and that temperature control doesn't work because it only measures an averaged number that isn't very representative of all the various different temperatures that occur, e.g., the center of the coil generates the most heat so the cooling effect caused by airflow characteristics in cohort with evaporation (that's right, evaporation causes cooling, and a freezer uses evaporation of a liquid coolant exactly because of it...) and juice flow characteristics are among critical factors. So, meticulously tweaking these factors and all the other factors each one of which is part determining these factors, is the way to go, when the fast vapor production of high wattage vaping on complex coils that I can build myself by using a cordless drill and some swivels is what enables me to actually FEEL, in the most direct sense of the word FEEL, what goes on with temperature and with the localized buildup of heat, thereby allowing my brain to outweigh the pros and cons engendered by these differences and changes. My gut feels.

Bottom line: I prefer to use mech mods with powerful intricate coil builds that are specifically designed to help clear the path toward my tactile senses. After all, the tactile senses are important for identifying touch, pressure, pain, temperature and texture so, going with my gut is the equivalent to the direct path only a mech is capable to provide, while at the same time also acknowledging the fact that the human ability to detect and accurately identify the aforementioned stimuli is linked logically to the intensity, or power so that's why James Watt also plays an important part... despite I happen to be HSP in such a particular way that I possess a magnified level of susceptibility to this specific type of stimuli I believe are at the core of the human species' naturally developed ability to detect and identify harm, intuitively, i.e., by going with your gut when being in absence of any additional data points. Sensing harm.

I'll maybe start down here. You're pretty crazy man in a good way though. Seems that vaping for you borders a spiritual experience. I'm nowhere near as passionate about vaping myself, for me it was initially a tool to get me off the cigarettes, but somehow now the whole concept evolved and is turning into a hobby. I have other hobbies though to which I sacrifice more time, so I need to balance it out.
For example, I've decided that I will not be building my own coils. The time and resources needed to perfect this skill: I would rather use for other things I'm keen on. Like, for example, aquascaping, crafting my own fishing lures and making fishing riggs etc. I will stick to buying pre-made coils as there is a good selection out there made by pros. Maybe in the future I'll change my mind and get passionate about it, who knows.
"Sensing harm" being at the core of the human species: I have to disagree. It may apply to simple stuff, but when it comes to vaping, it's impossible for the human body and brain to detect dangers. The vape you inhale is complex, especially the multi-flavored juices, there is little knowledge about how exactly it affects the human body, and at the same time it often tastes divine, yet there might be harmful compounds within it. Human brain and body are easy to cheat.
A good example of that is simply the modern food: a piece of quality meat is nearly impossible to distinguish from a piece of same quality small meat pieces glued together into one piece with meat glue. Sweet, artificial, delicious, and widely available food: people find themselves very attracted to it, and it's implications, like obesity, combined with related diseases, are moder-era plague. Somehow a great proportion of human race fails to detect that what is essentially tasty, appealing, and looks great and 100% palatable, is a slow and silent killer.
Because of the technology and modern lifestyle, we've drifted far away from the environment in which the natural instincts and defensive mechanisms you describe could thrive, and the only weapon we have is to learn what is good and what is bad for us. There just wasn't enough time for humans to develop new mechanisms that would allow us to use our senses again to keep us away from modern dangers.
In case of all the things unknown or not enough learning sources available, you can only attempt to use common sense, and this is what I meant when I used the expression "going by the gut".

 

[dripster]

I mean forget about the variables of low or high wattage. There are a multitude of social barriers to overcome. These inhibitions are kind of hard, if not impossible, to shake off.

Try telling it to the wattage police. THEN, you'll soon find out for yourself how impossible it is to shake off the wattage police.

 

[PeterKay]

Whereas with a true MTL setup, all I get is sheer nic harshness with almost no flavor. So then, I match my vaping to vaping, not smoking. Because I am a realist.

Could you not though (theoretically speaking), having an appropriate setup, achieve a similar vape quality at low wattage compared to high wattage? If you used an mtl rda, low nic and good quality liquid or nic salt liquid, and a microcoil that would match the quality and complexity of the sophisticated coils build for normal-sized RDA's? In other words- high wattage vaping on a micro-scale to match different vaping style? I imagine to copy some of the coplex coils, and make a micro version of them, wouldn't be posible for human eyes and hands. But what if it was machined?

 

[PeterKay]

The reason why I ask: I'm keen on trying new things. I can see myself trying high watts in the nearby future. Got a Cthulhu Azathoth RDA coming my way as we speak that I purchased for a very reasonable price, and after watching some reviews I decided to make it an atty I'll be practicng on. Just need to get a decent squonk mod to play with it, the one I have now, eleaf pico, only reaches 100W (dripping isn't for me for practical reasons).
But I still like the MTL style and I can't see myself abandoning that style. I really love tobacco flavors and it's hard for me to imagine high-wattage squonking on a tobacco-flavored juice. So I will try my best to also experience the best flavors possible in my mtl setups. And I can see how many other MTL vapers would be keen on improving their flavor experience.

 

[PeterKay]

Whereas with a true MTL setup, all I get is sheer nic harshness with almost no flavor. So then, I match my vaping to vaping, not smoking. Because I am a realist.

Also I forgot to mention. What's harsh for you isn't necessarily harsh for others. I know I'm pretty resistant to higher nic in my juices, 18mg for MTL is absolutely no problem. I can vape 10mg-13mg liquid at 60-70W from an RDA, no problem. Even higher: 2 days ago I accidentally filled my RTA with my liquid for MTL, 60/40 VG/PG, 18mg nic (I mixed 2 juices with identical name, one for MTL, one for DTL, hence the mistake, grabbed a wrong bottle lol). I decided not to pour it out and just vape on. 60W, quite harsh at the start, but then I got used to. I've nearly finished 8ml tank by now. Took a little longer than the usual juice I vape on, can't deny

 

[PeterKay]

Another reason why I will stick to mtl (although this is more collateral): I can't blow massive clouds at work (once I start working again after lockdown...). I work in construction and vaping is strictly forbidden on the building sites here in UK. I would have to go to a designated smoking area and stand there in the wind and rain with a bunch of smokers, looking and feeling like an idiot. A stealthy MTL setup allows me to vape almost all the time. And even if I was caught blowing little tiny, barely noticable vapor clouds, the management would be more willing to turn a blind eye. I've seen folks losing their job becuase they were caught doing DL with a room full of vapor, while guys with little low-wattage devices were only told off or warned. That's the reality atm.

 

[dripster]

I'll maybe start down here. You're pretty crazy man in a good way though. Seems that vaping for you borders a spiritual experience. I'm nowhere near as passionate about vaping myself, for me it was initially a tool to get me off the cigarettes, but somehow now the whole concept evolved and is turning into a hobby. I have other hobbies though to which I sacrifice more time, so I need to balance it out.
For example, I've decided that I will not be building my own coils. The time and resources needed to perfect this skill: I would rather use for other things I'm keen on. Like, for example, aquascaping, crafting my own fishing lures and making fishing riggs etc. I will stick to buying pre-made coils as there is a good selection out there made by pros. Maybe in the future I'll change my mind and get passionate about it, who knows.
"Sensing harm" being at the core of the human species: I have to disagree. It may apply to simple stuff, but when it comes to vaping, it's impossible for the human body and brain to detect dangers. The vape you inhale is complex, especially the multi-flavored juices, there is little knowledge about how exactly it affects the human body, and at the same time it often tastes divine, yet there might be harmful compounds within it. Human brain and body are easy to cheat.
A good example of that is simply the modern food: a piece of quality meat is nearly impossible to distinguish from a piece of same quality small meat pieces glued together into one piece with meat glue. Sweet, artificial, delicious, and widely available food: people find themselves very attracted to it, and it's implications, like obesity, combined with related diseases, are moder-era plague. Somehow a great proportion of human race fails to detect that what is essentially tasty, appealing, and looks great and 100% palatable, is a slow and silent killer.
Because of the technology and modern lifestyle, we've drifted far away from the environment in which the natural instincts and defensive mechanisms you describe could thrive, and the only weapon we have is to learn what is good and what is bad for us. There just wasn't enough time for humans to develop new mechanisms that would allow us to use our senses again to keep us away from modern dangers.
In case of all the things unknown or not enough learning sources available, you can only attempt to use common sense, and this is what I meant when I used the expression "going by the gut".

The TRUE reason why I might come across as if vaping for me borders a spiritual experience is quite simple. It's because everyone who shares my personal views and personal preferences in vaping even just a little bit has left this place after systematically having been teargassed by the wattage police. As for humans being able to sense harm, I'm sure it doesn't apply to vaping when it comes to the long-term effects of inhaling food flavorings. But when it comes to the harm caused by overheating juice, which is what I was referring to when talking about localized heat buildup inside a coil, it does apply to me. I am hypersensitive to the characteristics of what vapor I get when juice overheats. It's all part of what makes me HSP. You read up on HSP you'll find the answers.

 

[PeterKay]

The TRUE reason why I might come across as if vaping for me borders a spiritual experience is quite simple. It's because everyone who shares my personal views and personal preferences in vaping even just a little bit has left this place after systematically having been teargassed by the wattage police. As for humans being able to sense harm, I'm sure it doesn't apply to vaping when it comes to the long-term effects of inhaling food flavorings. But when it comes to the harm caused by overheating juice, which is what I was referring to when talking about localized heat buildup inside a coil, it does apply to me. I am hypersensitive to the characteristics of what vapor I get when juice overheats. It's all part of what makes me HSP. You read up on HSP you'll find the answers.

I'm just reading about it. Never heard of HSP. I think I finally found out what's the deal with a person close to me which I could never figure out before.

It's pretty sad to see actually, being pretty new to vaping community, and watching people fight over pretty trivial problems. All that energy could be used to fight the common enemy: all the people that are doing everything to kill every form of vaping, worldwide.
Besides, I think that borth MTL and DTL styles of vaping could benefit from one another. Improving the flavor in MTL I mentioned earlier being a simple example. And DTL could become more accessible to new vapers if the patterns developed by MTL could be recognised and considered by high wattage community. Basically- how to better advertise it to masses.

 

[PeterKay]

When I bought my first device, beginning of 2016, I went online to research. 3 of the sites out of 3 I checked said that dripping, squonking, and sub-ohm vaping in general is only for experienced veterans and enthusiasts and shouldn't be attempted by a novice under no circumstances. So I bought an mtl starter kit. Once such idea is engraved into people's minds, it's really hard to erase it.