Whole Tobacco Alkaloid (WTA) now available at Aroma Ejuice

[davelog]

Welcome back, Jerry. Sorry to hear about your friends. I can only hope that when my time comes, it's while doing something that I love as well.

Peace and strength to you and yours.

 

[hittman]

Welcome back Jerry.

 

[emonty]

On the Alkaloid....I have heard that actually that is left out of the regular e-liquid because it is the "bad" part that is used in cigarettes. So my question is around the health aspect of Alkaloid, it that taken into consideration or not?

 

[Hellen A. Handbasket]

I'll take a stab at this since this has sat for a while this morning... The carcinogenic TSNAs (known as NNNs and NNKs) are what we want to look at (level wise) but are found in NRTs and snus/snuff, e-liquids, etc. all in varying degrees. This should be around the level of snus. Jerry is doing testing on batches. Alkaloids are what we've been missing and can be helpful for many of us to keep us from smoking. I think we only got nicotine in e-liquid because it had been believed that nicotine was the key for NRT. Latest studies (and failure of patches and gum) indicate otherwise.

The same minor tobacco alkaloids that you'll get in this WTA liquid (but not regular e-liquid) have also been developed and marketed by a few companies (outside of vaping) for use in quitting smoking. You'll see some products that are well known reduced harm alternatives made by this company Welcome » Star Scientific I think TropicalBob has been using some of these for quite some time.

Rock Creek is exploring processes for the extraction of alkaloids from zero-nitrosamine tobacco for the purpose of using those alkaloids in the development of a generic nicotine replacement therapy (NRT), as well as a potential non-nicotine nutraceutical product. The nutraceutical would supply a dietary supplement for adult smokers who seek to minimize nicotine craving using a non-nicotine product. These development efforts are based in part on earlier research cited as support for the patents Star Scientific previously obtained for the use of tobacco alkaloids in treating various neurological conditions, including depression.

I believe because the WTA is kept in it's original proportions as found in the tobacco leaf, it maintains the benefit we received when we smoked (and is similar to using Snus, which is a taste that not everyone wants to experience, LOL) and keeps risks low. There is no isolation of individual alkaloids (such as anatabine) in the WTA liquid. It's also my understanding that the WTA liquid is made from very clean natural organic tobacco.

Even more interesting are isolated alkaloids, which have gained more recent attention. Companies such as Rock Creek's studies show isolated alkaloids as a beneficial product for many things Rock Creek Pharmaceuticals Discloses Filing of Provisional Patent Application For Isolated Anatabine Isomer » Star Scientific so I for one think having it in our liquid in a dose similar to what CigRx is providing could be a good thing!
(also interesting: Monoamine oxidase (MAO) inhibitors and uses thereof - Regent Court Technologies, LLC )

Safety of long term use is unknown (as is vaping the ingredients in e-liquid), and you'll have to make up your own mind about risks of using WTA liquid at this juncture. That said, I'd think that Star Scientific wouldn't be putting tobacco alkaloid products out there if there was a problem. For me, knowing the FDA has given products like CigRx (which has isolated antabine and other natural MAOI ingredients such as Yerbamaté extract) a green light makes me feel better about putting WTA liquid in my daily rotation. By the way, The FDA has considered CigRx as a nutraceutical product that won't be regulated under Chapter IX of the FDCA.

I'd hope Dvap or Jerry will jump in here and if I've made an error or incorrect assumption.

 

[radiokaos]

On the Alkaloid....I have heard that actually that is left out of the regular e-liquid because it is the "bad" part that is used in cigarettes. So my question is around the health aspect of Alkaloid, it that taken into consideration or not?

Emonty,

I'm not sure I understand your question completely but will take a stab at it.

Nicotine is a alkaloid. That being said Nicotione is in most ejuice or eliquid out on the market. The exception to that rule is when someone is vaping zero 0 MG of nic along with VG or PG and maybe even some flavoring. Everything should be considered a health concern when you are introducing a foreign substance into your body. I can't make claims that regular Ejuice or WTA is healthy. It would be wrong to make those statements without real evidence and empirical data to back that up. Suppliers making those claims can set back the industry by doing so.

Below is a quote from Dvap who is a well respected member in the community. He has touched on this topic a few times here but let me repost them. It was also posted in this thread and in the FAQ. I hope this answers your question. Let me know if you have any other concerns.

....Folks... I've been posting a lot of wet-blanket stuff, you know, "stay away from WTA unless you're really fighting analogs!" One reason for this, I suppose, is that we have to remember that the whole realm of vaping is even now rather new, and we don't know as much as we sometimes think we do. I guess I'm big on safety, and for as much as we want vaping to be safe, we're really only persuaded that vaping is safer than smoking, and that smoking is probably a good bit safer than driving really fast with your eyes closed!

The whole discussion around vaping is really about nothing less than our lives. Who here doesn't think it would be great if smoking was actually safe? I'd do a carton a day, really. I'm the first to say that if I were given my choice, I'd not vape at all, be active, get back into shape, and do all those healthy things that make my doctor tell me I can have TWO lollipops when I leave my annual physical. But I can't put down the e-cigarette yet...

We believe in harm-reduction... the idea that we can come out net-positive by replacing one bad habit with another not-so-bad habit. We know smoking is really bad for our health and longevity, but we only believe that our chosen not-so-bad habit of vaping is less bad. I really don't want anybody here to say "Well, WTA is a lot safer than smoking because DVap said...". DVap didn't say. DVap did say to go find a mountain, a meadow, a seashore, an unspoiled place and breath the air. BUT... failing to do all those good things I should be doing, and still tethered to an e-cigarette, I am simply persuaded, like many, that vaping is safer than smoking. But I wouldn't want the first of you here to take *my* word for it. I feel similarly about WTA. I believe that WTA is a safer alternative than smoking, but I don't know this.

The only thing I really know about WTA is anecdotal via the folks who have had the opportunity to try it... that WTA does take the edge off for folks who still struggle with analogs while vaping. Then again, so does snus (The Swedish stuff), and I'm far more persuaded that snus is safe than I am about vaping nicotine or vaping WTA.

So, in the end, all I'm really saying is that each of us has to do our own thinking and put our health in our own hands. Don't take my word for it, when in doubt, breath the air.

Here is another quote about safety. This too was mentioned in this thread.

Many of the 4000 (more or less) chemicals in cigarette smoke are pyrolytic.. I.E., they are the result of combustion. In the case of WTA, we isolate the nicotine and nicotine-like chemicals (alkaloids) from tobacco and discard the source tobacco. The source of what we know as "tar" is absent from the e-liquid, which is vaporized at a temperature far below that at which combustion occurs.

The operative principle that vapers are exercising is something referred to "harm reduction". We vape because we believe that vaping is less harmful than smoking, but we don't (or at least we shouldn't) fool ourselves into believing that vaping is as safe as breathing clean mountain air.

Compared to an eliquid containing only nicotine, WTA is a more complex mixture. It stands to reason that WTA is not as safe as vaping nicotine only due to the increased complexity of the liquid. It is, however, this increased complexity that affords WTA the ability to help a struggling vaper not fall back to smoking analogs.

You either accept the idea of harm reduction or you don't. The anti-tobacco establishment tends to reject it with their "quit or die" attitude. Tobacco in all it's forms is, to them, unacceptable. Whether one form is less harmful than another is of no consequence... thus they would deny us less harmful alternatives to smoking, preferring that folks who might benefit from a less harmful alternative either "quit or die". Coincidentally, the anti-tobacco establishment is a big-money industry... and too bad that a lot of folks who simply can't quit, in the alternative, die.

 

[Ceegary]

These are good extensive answers. Though it's been mentioned, I feel it's worthy to accurately define the question first and possibly simplify the answers for those that overwhelmed by detailed ones.

There are a number of harmful or potentially harmful substances in tobacco smoke, caused by burning, extracts from tobacco and possible chemical reactions from additives. So is the question about the presence of substances created by or only released by combustion?... Vaping does avoid the substances caused by burning and WTA remains an e-juice. Considering that these are believed to be the main culprits that cause most of the harmful effects of smoking, these are avoided by regular and WTA juice equally.

The initial concept of vaping was to reduce e-juice to purely nicotine, which itself has poisonous properties but manageable at the lower quantities consumed by vaping. It was also conceived the experience of smoking and addiction to it was largely, if not wholly due to nicotine. In fact, it's still usually referred to as nicotine addiction, and surely nicotine far comprises the highest proportion of alkaloids that are found in tobacco leaf. Is the question related to the form or degree of nicotine in the WTA?...The actual nicotine content is the same in both e-juice and WTA at the same levels, except there will always be some amount of nicotine in WTA whereas it is possible to create 0 nic e-juice.

There are some substances that come primarily from tobacco being aged versus green. Is the question regarding these? It's believed they're present in both regular e-juice and WTA. Similar bases such as Propylene Glycol and Vegetable Glycerin are also used in both.

What differs WTA, is the other tobacco alkaloids that are in the leaf, delivered by combustion and products like SNUS but not in regular e-juice. Is the question are these harmful? ... No complete study has been done on this so it is assumed they add potential harmful effects but so does vaping high degree nic levels versus low. None of this is totally risk free, it's all a degree of manageable risk but then so is eating, drinking, exercising, etc.

Or is the question whether these alkaloids are the very substances we were originally trying to avoid by vaping in the first place?...No, that distinction is usually reserved for the 4,000 plus created by combustion.

Or is the question something else we've not covered?

 

[mopar]

Looks cool gonna try it forsure.

 

[JuniorNA]

i would def order a larger bottle and probably vape it straight, and test out my levels of vaping and how much it is reduced. I would treat WTA like regular analogs. Instead of vaping 24/7, I would vape WTA every hour or so, 5-7 drags and then put it down. When i need more nicotine, i would vape it straight again. I'm not into flavors that much, so I think i'd be fine with the WTA default taste.

 

[6pointprime]

Tonight on Click, Bang! I will be talking to Jerry from Aroma e-Juice to discuss Whole Tobacco Alkaloids.

9PM EST

You can call in to ask questions or make comments by dialing 347-308-8329

You can use the below link to listen to the show live - it will also work if you want to listen to the replay if you can't catch the show tonight.

Whole Tobacco Alkaloids 08/30 by kevbow | Blog Talk Radio

 

[radiokaos]

Tonight on Click, Bang! I will be talking to Jerry from Aroma e-Juice to discuss Whole Tobacco Alkaloids.

9PM EST

You can call in to ask questions or make comments by dialing 347-308-8329

You can use the below link to listen to the show live - it will also work if you want to listen to the replay if you can't catch the show tonight.

Whole Tobacco Alkaloids 08/30 by kevbow | Blog Talk Radio

It was a fun show. Did not expect someone surprises but it was fun. I really wanted to spread the word and educate.

 

[davelog]

I need to go back and hear the replay without the echo, but what I heard was informative and a little tense - but I think it was a fruitful discussion about what you're doing and where it can go.

 

[6pointprime]

Sorry for the issues tonight but the replay from tonight's show is up. There is some echo for the first three minutes of the interview but the rest of the show is fine after that. Sorry for the issues tonight folks!

Whole Tobacco Alkaloids 08/30 by kevbow | Blog Talk Radio

 

[radiokaos]

I need to go back and hear the replay without the echo, but what I heard was informative and a little tense - but I think it was a fruitful discussion about what you're doing and where it can go.

I'm here to answer questions, not make comments about someone who claims to be a supplier.

I won't pitch snake oil, Dehydrated water or make unfounded claims.

 

[Hellen A. Handbasket]

I just finished listening to it. Wow...

Nice job Jerry... considering it was disappointing that a competitor was allowed to call in and participate during your "interview" WTH!??? The show's host either totally lost control of everything or sat back hoping for fireworks.

Jerry, I think you handled it very well considering it was obvious you had no idea it was going to go like that and the show's host didn't do anything to stop it.

That kind of thing is what bugs me the most about these vaping radio shows. I don't understand how some of these guys treat people who are taking their time to come on their shows. It would have been fine for Russ to take that call and upon learning who it was, cut it short, and invite him to call back AFTER your interview.

Instead, Russ goads on the competitor by asking him "Do you disagree with anything that he's (Jerry) said so far?" and lets the guy rail on and on. Really??? Then Russ asks if there is some kind of "Back story" between Jerry and the supplier that calls in, and THEN pushes it even further when he asks the supplier who called in if he has a problem with Jerry... Sheesh.

To me, it sure looked like having that supplier call in was planned by the show's host for added entertainment.

This isn't the first time I've seen a vaping radio show host do something crass like mention other people's products or take calls from and essentially promote a competitor while their invited guest is on the air. After I got through listening, I was still shaking my head...

Sorry Russ, I won't bother to tune in again.

 

[hittman]

I listened also and thought that you handled yourself very well Jerry.

 

[Katya]

Good show, Jerry!

But I do agree with Hellen's assessment.

 

[Ceegary]

Agree with everything Helen said. I actually felt sorry for Jerry being ambushed like that, very distasteful. OTH, I find most members of the vaping community to be fairly savvy, bright people and I think that type of behavior will repel rather than attract most of us to both future radio shows and the competitor. Weak, underhanded attacks usually come from weak positions.

Having tested a few of Aroma's WTA juices I wanted to put in my 2c on the issue of flavor. Firstly, in their base form, not mixed with any other e-juice, they do have what I consider more of a "taste" than a flavor. To define it even further; it's more of a mouth feeling and aftertaste than a straight taste. There was a difference but I would prefer to categorize it as a mouth experience rather than a straight taste. (BTW, I'm not inexperienced in discerning flavors, when I smoked cigars I was a blind taste tester for Smoke Magazine. I was sent unbanded cigars to smoke and write a report, including not just the flavors but origin and type of each of leaf used).

I like to break my experience of WTA in the following categories with a suffix of "Experience" on each one; but I'm only going to define Mouth in this post.

A) Mouth: On inhaling I do get feelings on my tongue and palate to a different degree with most of the taste on the exhale. There is an aftertaste which is very reminiscent to an aftertaste of a cig, not quite ashtray but in that direction. However, I can't define a taste by saying this like.... If I were tasting it not knowing what it was at all, the only thing what would lead to even hint at a tobacco taste would be the aftertaste.

B) Throat. C) Immediate reaction. D) Physiological. E) Satiation. F) Duration:

I'd like to also say something about Aroma and Jerry. When I first read about WTA on the forums I was hoping someone would make it available, to see if it was what I was hoping for based on the reports. In my first few hits I knew it was. I then asked Jerry a lot of questions and was impressed with his approach, motivation, concerns, standards and plans.

There might be other competitors in the future but I hail Jerry for his effort in bringing WTA to those of us in the vaping community that can benefit from it and doing it in a way that incorporates the highest standards, testing and quality. Aroma will always occupy that first place to me and Jerry deserved more respect than being ambushed by a competitor through a radio host that thought he was Jerry Springer, rather than conducting an informative interview on this important subject.

 

[Quick1]

Good show, Jerry!

But I do agree with Hellen's assessment.

I don't. Unless no one knew Jerry was going to be on. Otherwise I would *expect* Ethan or the likes to call in. Just on the chance to promote his stuff and bash a competitor. Overall I think it was VERY damaging to Ethan. He called up unprepared and exposed with the sole message of "flavors, there shouldn't be any flavors in an extraction". Followed up by "no, I'm not a chemist, but I know one. No, I don't have or use a lab but the spare room is neat and tidy. No, I haven't tested anything I produce but it's an easy process. No I don't have a link to the study I'm referencing but a lot of people have talked about it. No, I have no experience as an e-cig vendor but I've almost got an online store setup. I've been vaping for 6 months. Half price!"...
Didn't inspire confidence in me personally.

I thought Jerry was very measured/constrained/professional (and kind) in his response. I would have jumped on the guy and held him to task on his claims and statements.

 

[Katya]

Hello, Quick!

I agree with your assessment too!

I really do.

 

[Ceegary]

I also agree with you Quick, except for the last part..

I would have jumped on the guy and held him to task on his claims and statements.

When you wallow with the pigs you also get mud on you. As you wisely pointed out we could all pretty much figure out who was who and what was what.