Why B&M stores have to be higher priced. Should Manufacturers have minimum pricing?

[NiNi]

B & M's are going to set their prices to what the current market of "walk in" customers are willing to pay. I would imagine they are "keystoning" their retail prices (100% markup from wholesale) + adding 10% for hardware because the bulk of that is being imported. I don't really know the current situation for customs and import tax, but that was SOP for my father who owned several Scandinavian retail import shops here in the States.
As far as juice made in house at a pretty steep price (or standard vape gear from over seas), if they don't provide the amenities of juice bar, tasting, etc., or have employees that are oblivious to customers, they're really setting themselves up for getting a bad rep of being over priced and not customer friendly. You might as well buy all your vaping needs on the internet, and most of those companies have customer support via online chat.

Let's face it, some people get into the B & M's to cash in on the current publicized wave of vaping. They're going to push the envelope to get the highest price for their products with the least amount of overhead and customer service. They will skimp on the normal business/building insurance, employ only part time employees to avoid paying minimum wage and fudge on employee taxes, FICA, etc., by paying a "cash per diem" instead of a paycheck or have their employees fill out a 1099.

Are some B & M's inflating their juice prices to cover their legitimate overhead that gear sales cannot sustain? Possibly, but that really wouldn't be a sound business practice. As more B & M's start up and the vaping population increases, a business's "staying power" or success will be contingent on all of their various products to sustain their own presence and their "set" monetary value on their own (Provari and other high end mods the exception).

Sorry about that ^^, my mind just had a flashback to "Small Business Management".

 

[Sucker_dad]

See a lot of this argument is from perspective, if you have a decent B&M you wouldnt feel the same way, I wish we did.. all the local stores here would make you change tunes very quickly paying 9-10 bucks for 10ml of china juice and 8-10 bucks for a CE4 clearo - watching suckers buy knockoff 650 egos for 45 bucks burns my a**

Hey it's a discussion, not an argument. The ego sets we get here are no namers and a 900 mah with a ce4 is $25 a replacement ce4 is $6 so I totally agree with what you are saying. I shop more online out of necessity. I wish I had an alternative and I would support it up to a point.

 

[Sucker_dad]

The whole point of this was that I want other people to understand that there is a reason that B&M stores charge more for products. Also if you have a good store in your area, you should support it when you can so you will always have a local store for when you need one. It frustrates me when I see posts from people who will buy online anytime something is 20 cents less. I understand it if you don't have any stores or your local store is out to screw you though. I was in one in Kansas City recently that the cheapest juice in store was $11 a 15 ml and some were $18.99 a 15 I did buy one that I liked very much but I won't go out of my way to go there again. I am just plain jealous of folks that have several stores to pick from.

 

[NiNi]

I don't have a problem spending about .50 per ml for an online vendor because I can't find anyone else that compares or a DIYer that can duplicate their juice. I keep going back to them (and I have tons of samples from many, many online juice vendors from a 2 month sample run) because:

Glass bottles (no plastic bottles with hand scribbled, barely legible labels with smudges)
100% survival rate in shipping
The Customer Experience (no bubble wrap envelopes with loose bottles, cheesy web site, mass production feeling)
Customer Service
Extras
Knowledge of their product

I could see them having a B & M, and they COULD duplicate their online experience in many ways, but if it was me, I'd pass on the added head aches of operating a B & M. The one "local" B/M (35 miles away) I have ordered from, never been in, but just kinda found their strip mall location and their juices, although original names, were duplicated in one form or another by other vendors and their gear is kinda sub par. They could have some really great employees, maybe a juice bar, but ultimately, it would be the juice I'd patronize them for. And, the juice is not all that and a bag of chips, and about the same price I am currently paying.

It'd be kind of interesting to get members to put up their favorite B/M store and just why they like it. Then maybe narrow it down to the Best of the Best. Setting the bar, so to speak, on what the current "ideal" B/M store encompasses.

 

[degnr8]

I agree the B&M is going to have to charge more since they have to pay for the B and for the M. Good customer service and knowledgeable staff will offset a lot of that for the consumer so that we don't really mind paying more if it's still reasonable. I think the markup they can get away with is also dependent on the product. People have talked about juice a bit, but I'd also point out that on the smaller items like attys or cartos/clearos for the folks that use 'em 100 or even 150% markup wouldn't be that big a deal because shipping costs would eat up most of that on an online order. No way in hell I'm paying that kind of markup on a mod though. My Reo/Rm2 combo was just short of $200 online. If my local shop had had it I would have probably been willing to go 250 but that would be about as much as I'd be willing to spend for instant gratification and to support the local business community. My local B&M seems to have this idea backwards. I first went in there for dripping attys, $5 each not bad. Their juice prices weren't terrible, if I remember right it worked out to about 60 cents/ml but the guy tried to sell me a Zmax for $200 :O ... dude?! I think to make it work they almost need to use mods as a loss leader and make their money on the small items. I would actually like to buy from these guys but other than Kanthal at $2/3ft they don't sell anything I want. No modding supplies and no DIY items. I'm hoping that stuff gets added as they expand. The other thing that B&Ms can do of course that the online vendors can't is create a fun social atmosphere. Vapemeets etc will get people in the door to see all the shinies.

 

[JulesXsmokr]

To survive being a Vaping Only B&M is an act of futility.
This industry is in it's infancy, and the Big Players have yet to jump in with both feet..
The small businessman and entrepreneur should know the existing rules and some foresight of what is coming before he ventures in.
With possibly only a 10% market in this country, it is a niche market.
So how do you survive??, make the fast buck on smokers trying to quit ??
Or delve into no mans land and play like a Big Boy selling hi-end gear and make and sell your really good home made juices??
Sure, service, quality, personalization, "location", all that and more is needed to compete either way..
Price fixing, that will back fire on these companies, unless the "regulators" make them the winners, not us the users..
There is way too much out there "wild west style" for a company to rule this market..
B&M owners have to be smarter than most other types of businesses to "succeed here in the long run"...
I believe it's not about pricing, as much as it is a niche market that serves the short haul..
Smokers used to spend 50 to over a 100 dollars a week to satisfy their urge. They can spend that again if they wanted to, and still be on top, because their health will have been gained..
Run your business as you see fit, garage, bathroon, store front, computer inventory, sales forwarding, whatever, it's open territory and great for the little man, as long as that's who we have to compete with.
I know as a consumer, I do know where to go for info on buying... Right here at ECF..

 

[glowplug]

Sorry if I am duplicating other posts. I don't have time to read all the previous posts...gotta head out to my local B&M to pick up stuff for a friend who isn't able to get there today!

I totally support the mark up and I am completely against any minimum pricing. This is supposed to be a free country despite what our President seems to think. Competition is GOOD. Free enterprise is GOOD. We have at least 6 stores in the Denver Metro Area that I know of. One of them charges outrageous prices on his hardware and juice. People pay it.

The one I frequent is a bit higher than online purchases. Their customer service is excellent and they are more than happy to spend time educating, explaining and fixing problems. I am happy to throw part of my business their way to support their endeavor. I gladly pay a little more because they have helped me so much and I like a hands on for some things. Who wants to pay $200 for a mod and not get to actually touch, try and see the colors? That store is called Vapor Leaf. If you are in the area, stop by and visit them. Limited hours is the only drawback.

Last and certainly not least, BUYER BEWARE. Do your homework. If an ego starter kit is about $30 online, don't let someone sell you one for $75!!! If you do, then you have only yourself to blame. I am sick and tired of blaming the wrong person in this country. People need to educate themselves and careful consumers. I have a small (very) trucking company. If I take a load for $1000 and find out the broker was paid $2000 for it, whose fault is it? The broker for 'raping' me or me for not negotiating the price correctly? The correct answer is ME! If I am not aware of the market and what I need to operate my equipment then I deserve to be 'raped'. If I am tickled with the $1000, then I have no reason to be angry with the Broker.

OK. I am done. My rant is over. Personal responsibility. Educated consumers. Yeah. That is all.

 

[Nunnster]

/start rant

This is how I see it. First off, to answer your question, I think a MSRP would be a good thing in the world of vaping when it comes to full kits. As for replacement parts and such, I think my B&M stores are fairly reasonable compared to other retailers so I have no issue with paying an extra buck for a replacement atty that I need NOW. I love my B&M stores, but when they are selling a ego or an ego clone kit for 80 bucks, I have to chime in to the prospective buyers and let them know that they can get the same thing for much much cheaper online. And don't get me started on how much they want to charge for mods. I understand that B&M stores often have other expenses they have to pay then a lot of online retailers, but I think a 40-100 dollar mark up is crazy for a kit. As for juice, I think this is where most of the profits should come from. That being said, I think the mark-up on juice in general is crazy. I can DIY a 30 ml bottle of juice for just under 3 bucks (that is on the high end of things), and I do not buy in bulk like most venders do. So I assume (could be wrong) that they are making juice for about a buck for a 30 ml bottle, and turn around and (around here anyways) sell it for 25 bucks. To me, that kind of profit margin is greedy. I think a 1000 % mark up (10 bucks) would still have enough profit to run any business. Even 15 bucks to me is reasonable, considering the 5 bucks you would pay in shipping if you were to get it online.

/end rant

 

[NiNi]

Personal responsibility. Educated consumers. Yeah. That is all.

That's it in a nutshell.

 

[tnt56]

I work in a B&M shop.. I'm the tech person. I can fully understand a "Reasonable markup". The overhead and expense is amazing to me.. First job I ever had in this kind of business.
What really ticks me off is when I hear of a B&M that sells junk and then refuses to realize it's junk.
Shops that don't tell customers anything about a product or even worse, they know it's junk but say it's the best thing since sliced bread..
Some customers consider me very rude. Others appreciate my honesty, and always come back for more knowledge.
Depending on the product I really do think some things are way overpriced. But I don't deal with numbers, Just people.
IMHO if I sell a customer a product that cost them 6 or 7 dollars and the first time they lose a tank of juice, or it runs out all over their nice clothes. I'll replace and fill it for them. So the shop lost a few dollars. In the long run My shop will gain a lot more than that, just for the service they are offered. If they buy a bottle of juice, and it's wrong. Then it's replaced. No charge..
I understand a little bit about the profit margin, but customers have to understand the expense the owner has to keep this kind of service running.
If they see someone vaping on an RBA and want the same "Big clouds of Vape". (geeze I get tired of hearing that.) And you buy one but don't know how to use it. It's not my fault. I'm not your Daddy/Momma.
I believe with all my heart that customers should be educated as well as possible. If they want more information. Then there is always CASAA and this fantastic forum.
If you want to vape a 0.2ohm RDA on a K100 or whatever and you don't know what your safety margin is or understand OHMS law, then learn. I can only go so far to help.
If you want me to build the coil and wick for you, it's a liability issue. I can't control what happens after you get home.
Don't ask the name of the shop as rules forbid it. And besides I've already been spanked more than once, by employer and ECF.
This forum is important to me and so is my job.
After all this is just an old man's
No name of shop will be provided due to rules.

 

[NiNi]

I'm really curious about the actual cost when you break it down, if anyone has a clue, for a 30 ml bottle, when factoring in:

Glass bottle w/ glass dripper (brown)
Pre printed label
Shrink wrapped around bottle top (ok, kill me for thinking tamper proof)
Nic extract
Flavor
PG
VG
Time (be generous, $10 an hour, unless my idea of a generous wage is old school )

Anyone want to take a stab at total cost? Not a DIYer but many of you are. Using brown glass specifically because of cross flavor whatever from plastics and light degrading......I understand you'd be taking this from bulk purchases and cutting it down to one 30ml bottle.

Anyone out there feel adventurous?

 

[DaveP]

B&M prices are all over the place and so are lots of retail pricing schemes. Just about any product will have a 30% variance depending on where you buy and whether it's an item that people pick up while they are there shopping for something else. Some will pay the premium just to save a stop on the way home.

My local B&M vendor made the decision to keep the prices on all items the same at their online store and the B&M store. I respect that. If they find that profits aren't what they expected, I'd accept a 10% increase just to keep the B&M convenience in place. It's nice not to have to worry about juice. I really like only one of their juices, but it's enough to keep me coming back here and there for a 30ml bottle at $16.99. I can and usually do keep some Dekang and Hangsen around that I pay $10.99 and $13.99 respectively, for 50ml online. I also like an online juice that's $8.99 for 16ml, so their 30ml price is reasonable.

I bought a Segelei Zmax for $74.99 in their store. The prices for that one vary from around forty something to what I paid. After I got home I noticed that the display was slanted. I took it back a week later and pointed that out and she reached under the counter and swapped it out at no charge. That's service and it's why I'll buy their 30ml $16.99 juice frequently. I buy their Kanger heads in boxes of 5 for $8.

It's also a place that does Vape Night and Swap Night here and there. They usually have a drawing for a nice piece of hardware on those nights. I've met some local vapers that way. They also have a juice bar with about 40 flavors in Vivi Novas. They give you a plastic drip tip and you swap it among the tanks and try all the juices before you buy. What a deal! I've spent lots on mail order juices that end up in the closet.

There's value in a B&M store if it's run right, especially if they can keep the prices reasonable.

 

[Nunnster]

NOOOOOOOOOO! I broke it down by each price for each item for you and had a long list of each price of each item did all the math per bottle and per ML, but my browser restated and it all got deleted! The priciest thing on the list was 60 cents, for your glass bottles. Its $1.77 per bottle bulk price including labor.

 

[PHXJESSICA]

I think that there is a place and role for both online retailers and storefronts. If you are going to evaluate both business solely on price then, yes, buy everything online. However the success of a business can be severely influenced by a multitude of other factors. Think about all the items you buy in person (besides perishable food) and I bet you that most of those items can be purchased online at a cheaper price. But you buy things in person for any number of reasons, maybe you want the product instantly or person helping you was attractive. The reason things cost more in a store is because you are buying more. When you shop in person you are paying for the environment, customer service and shipping all added onto the price.

So I think that both sides of the market fill a need and will thrive as the industry continues to grow.

 

[NiburianElf]

"It is impossible to compete on pricing with someone who has his entire inventory stored in his garage and the only overhead is the Bacon Double Cheeseburger Combo he bought for lunch."

Well if we are going to keep this intelligent... Let's say someone runs an online e-cig shop from their garage. Wouldn't the percentage of square footage dedicated to that home business account for their actual overhead. I believe this is how it would actually be accounted for on their taxes.

Although I agree it is probably much cheaper to operate "out of your garage" why wouldn't rent/mortgage payments, utilities, insurance, taxes, licensing and possibly an accountant or book keeper still apply to those home businesses?

The whole bacon double cheeseburger thing is a nice rhetorical element that seems to dumb down any seller who does not want to go through the hassle of operating a physical b&m.

This is a very new industry. It is pretty neat to see it operate without much regulation. It seems like it is helping the economy, giving people jobs...

I suppose there could be a system where a retailer could become a licensed retailer of a certain product and then the MAP system could be applied. But the thing with MAP, it almost seems arbitrary at times, with some products costing a retailer 50% of the map, and others costing 90%. Then you have different maps for different distributor-retailer relationships. Why complicate things?

I would prefer to see some kind of QC applied to all products as this stuff does pertain to our health. I am just reluctant to see the industry give away some of its freedoms, as it will surely be taken over by corporate America somehow...

Next tangent: I would love to see more quality B&M's pop up. A shop that is up to date with the latest trends, knowledgable, passionate, a wide-variety of high quality products. Unfortunately around my area there are quite a few B&M's that overall suck. One shop sells overpriced Chinese garbage, one shop sells extremely overpriced nice quality stuff in a very limited range of products, one shop has overly expensive prices with a decent selection, but still no real desire to go outside of that. I understand they can't just buy up everything and expect to turn a profit, but strictly as a consumer, I'd love to see a dream shop packed full of stuff at fair prices with people that don't assume I'm some idiot that is going to believe whatever comes out of their mouth so they can get a sale.

I know some of these online retailers are actually quite nice B&M's with a physical storefront someplace, just not in my town. If a B&M can offer fair prices with the right selection of products, people are willing to pay a little more for the convenience.

 

[Sucker_dad]

The whole bacon double cheeseburger thing is a nice rhetorical element that seems to dumb down any seller who does not want to go through the hassle of operating a physical b&m.

Fair Enough that is an unjust assessment of the situation for most of those small business owners. I was just illustrating a point and trying, unsuccessfully, to be funny. I apologize if I have offended any of those vendors who operate online businesses. I operated my own home remodeling business, ironically out of my garage. My second business was a restaurant. So I do know a little about the differences involved.

 

[suspectK]

This is supposed to be a free country despite what our President seems to think.

What you seem to think...

 

[30calSolution]

There's a B&M about a mile from my place. They are just now having a 1 year anniversary. They have opened 7 stores now in the area and here is why.

Since they opened they have been selling ego kits for $80-120 and they are not good Joye kits but the el cheapo stuff.

They just recently started carrying some higher end devices and accesories. They want $85 for an MVPv1, $100 for an SVD and $180 for the 134. Vamo bodies are $75, smok dct tanks are $15-25 depending on the type. I stopped by the other day and asked if they had any 510 to 510 shorties, the guy handed me a 510 to 510/ego adapter and he said it was $4.95+tax. Lol

Basically, they are preying on the people that are new to vaping. I sent them a nice email congratulating them on their 1 year anniversary and asked when they were going to start to give back to the community that has made them quite wealthy. I let them know that the boom is coming to an end and they may want to start being more competitive with their pricing because as soon as their customers find this new invention called the internet their going to have a problem.

Their prices are what I call a bit much, especially when it is lots of very low quality stuff.

 

[serenity21899]

The majority of the vape shops in my area keep the markup to a minimum for the most part. I will pay a bit more there because I do not have to pay shipping, nor do I have to wait for vapemail to arrive.

However, I was at a vape shop today that had a high markup. Why would I pay $70 for an MVP v1 or $100 for a Kamry (Tesla clone) in a kit? Fortunately, I know my prices and won't get ripped off.

Another store I frequent tried to sell me a steampunk mod for $325. I had seen the mod before and tracked it down to the modder who was happy to send it to me for $178.

So, I think some markup is fine, but ripping people off is not.

 

[Sucker_dad]

Let's keep politics out of the conversation.