FDA Why is there no hardware litigation?

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DC2

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are pipes currently regulated? if not, why not? they are intended to help people smoke tobacco arent they?
I haven't been following the pipe question closely, so I'm not sure.
But I could swear I heard that pipes WILL be regulated once the deeming regulations are in place.

Whether or not that is true, again, I'm not certain.
and if it is, then whether or not the FDA will bother to enforce anything in that regard is also uncertain.
 

Jman8

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I disagree as I pointed out above what is considered a 'tobacco product'. There is another quote by Zeller but I can't find it right now, but it's posted somewhere here, that he would consider ecig components as 'tobacco products' regardless of use. Maybe someone else has the quote more at hand than I.

Be that as it may, I understood edyle's point to be that there is no basis for establishing harm from hardware, or conversely, there would be no way to prove harm from hardware. Would need a finished tobacco product (eLiquid, with nic) for there to be a basis. Otherwise, advertiser of hardware has every reason to believe no harm would come to user given proper use of the product. Proper use equals vaping zero-nicotine. If user decides otherwise, that is not on manufacturer.
 

Kent C

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Be that as it may, I understood edyle's point to be that there is no basis for establishing harm from hardware, or conversely, there would be no way to prove harm from hardware. Would need a finished tobacco product (eLiquid, with nic) for there to be a basis. Otherwise, advertiser of hardware has every reason to believe no harm would come to user given proper use of the product. Proper use equals vaping zero-nicotine. If user decides otherwise, that is not on manufacturer.

If you can trade 5 Mercedes for a Slinky (Gutfeld), there isn't anything that the gov't can't do. We'll see.
 

the_vape_nerd

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I just want to thank everyone for hashing this out with me. In particular, DC2 and Kent C I have read you guys before and value your opinions.

I still think the hardware situation could and should be litigated, if for nothing else to delay the regs and who knows maybe a sympathetic judge like the one in the 2009 case sees reason and limits them to true tobacco products.
 

Catdumpling

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The only hardware I can possibly see being regulated (or at least attempted to be) are attys and VV/VW-type devices specifically made for vaping (like eGo batteries). Everything else (resistance wire, loose batteries, wick material, etc) is used by far too many other, completely unrelated, industries for the FDA to impose any kind of regulation on them, or to even consider them "tobacco accessories". Even things like DNA 30 chips couldn't fall under their regulation, because on their own they're just fairly basic DC-DC power regulators (something that most digital devices have in one way or another.)

Even mechanical mods would be difficult or impossible to regulate: no matter how shiny that copper Stingray is, at the end of the day it's just a threaded metal tube. Even if a vendor couldn't sell it whole, there's no way the FDA could stop them from selling the individual metal tubes, threaded endcaps and a dead-simple mechanical switch separately. In general, these are not complicated devices by any means. Can't sell a 510-threaded end cap? Okay, places will sell a cap with a hole in it and a tap-and-die set so you can thread it yourself. I'd imagine someone with a few tools around the garage could even build perfectly functional drippers at home without much technical knowledge. I suppose they could try to ban things like the VaporShark...but I don't see how they could ban selling the individual components (most of which can already be found at places like Mouser or Digi-Key). And they certainly couldn't ban PDF's of instructions on how to assemble it because that falls squarely under 1st Amendment protection. Ultimately the majority of devices and components fall way outside of the scope of the FDA, and most of them couldn't be banned or regulated simply because it would have a serious impact on hundreds of other industries.

I can't see how the vast majority of vaping hardware could be regulated by the FDA, and I suspect most of it will be removed from the final regulations. Keep in mind a lot of this stuff originally started somewhere else anyway. It was already around before vapers started cobbling stuff together, and a lot of it will continue to be available from its original source either way. I'm not saying we shouldn't worry about it (we should be concerned about everything the FDA proposes in regards to vaping), but their main focus will almost assuredly be eliquid (and especially the nicotine aspect) and purpose-made atomizers/clearomizers/your-topper-of-choice...maybe followed by the other stuff waaaay down at the bottom of the list if they really get desperate. If they even implied that they'd try to ban or regulate things like Kanthal or 18xxx batteries, they'd have dozens or hundreds of industries (like model/RC hobbyists, the aerospace industry, the computer industry, etc etc) banging down their door.

Keep in mind these are just my opinions, based on my own research and brainstorming on the matter.
 

Kent C

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The only hardware I can possibly see being regulated (or at least attempted to be) are attys and VV/VW-type devices specifically made for vaping (like eGo batteries). Everything else (resistance wire, loose batteries, wick material, etc) is used by far too many other, completely unrelated, industries for the FDA to impose any kind of regulation on them, or to even consider them "tobacco accessories". Even things like DNA 30 chips couldn't fall under their regulation, because on their own they're just fairly basic DC-DC power regulators (something that most digital devices have in one way or another.)

Even mechanical mods would be difficult or impossible to regulate: no matter how shiny that copper Stingray is, at the end of the day it's just a threaded metal tube. Even if a vendor couldn't sell it whole, there's no way the FDA could stop them from selling the individual metal tubes, threaded endcaps and a dead-simple mechanical switch separately. In general, these are not complicated devices by any means. Can't sell a 510-threaded end cap? Okay, places will sell a cap with a hole in it and a tap-and-die set so you can thread it yourself. I'd imagine someone with a few tools around the garage could even build perfectly functional drippers at home without much technical knowledge. I suppose they could try to ban things like the VaporShark...but I don't see how they could ban selling the individual components (most of which can already be found at places like Mouser or Digi-Key). And they certainly couldn't ban PDF's of instructions on how to assemble it because that falls squarely under 1st Amendment protection. Ultimately the majority of devices and components fall way outside of the scope of the FDA, and most of them couldn't be banned or regulated simply because it would have a serious impact on hundreds of other industries.

I can't see how the vast majority of vaping hardware could be regulated by the FDA, and I suspect most of it will be removed from the final regulations. Keep in mind a lot of this stuff originally started somewhere else anyway. It was already around before vapers started cobbling stuff together, and a lot of it will continue to be available from its original source either way. I'm not saying we shouldn't worry about it (we should be concerned about everything the FDA proposes in regards to vaping), but their main focus will almost assuredly be eliquid (and especially the nicotine aspect) and purpose-made atomizers/clearomizers/your-topper-of-choice...maybe followed by the other stuff waaaay down at the bottom of the list if they really get desperate. If they even implied that they'd try to ban or regulate things like Kanthal or 18xxx batteries, they'd have dozens or hundreds of industries (like model/RC hobbyists, the aerospace industry, the computer industry, etc etc) banging down their door.

Keep in mind these are just my opinions, based on my own research and brainstorming on the matter.

Agree 100%.
 

shelley cerata

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the_vape_nerd - Long story short, for a number of somewhat arcane if you don't study Administrative and Constitutional Law reasons, such a case couldn't be brought at this time. If you want to really go down the rabbit hole, read up on standing, ripeness and the Administrative Procedure Act. Even if we could handwave away the numerous justiciability issues, the APA sets a really high standard for the judicial review of rulemakings that would be difficult to meet.

Lawyer nerds, am I remembering all this correctly? Haven't practiced admin law in quite a while.
 

skoony

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Again, no. The FSPTCA was passed by Congress and signed by the President, and it is law.
And it says that a tobacco product is anything made of derived from tobacco.

Our nicotine is derived from tobacco, and it is going to be a tobacco product soon.
There is almost certainly no way of getting around that.

So that brings us to the hardware.

The definition of a tobacco product, as stated in the FSPTCA includes as a tobacco product...
Any part or component intended for use in a finished tobacco product

That is why rolling papers are currently regulated as a tobacco product.
that is because the paper is being consumed with the product.
to be used with the consumption of of a tobacco product.papers,glues,filters.
not,used to aid the consumption of a tobacco product.lighters,matches,pipes,cigarette holders.
regards
mike
 

zoiDman

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I for one have never really worried about whether or not the hardware is going to be regulated, nor if so, to what extent.
If the market for refillable liquid goes away, there won't really even be much hardware to regulate.

It would seem to Kill 2 Birds with 1 Stone.
 

Gato del Jugo

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...and the 'drug paraphernalia' as well.

And yet, I can still walk into any convenience store, gas station, tobacco shop or head shop, & legally purchase all sorts of contraptions sitting right up front in the glass display cases..

Mind you, I don't live in Colorado or WA, either...


If what you say is true, then explain how this is possible...
 

Kent C

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And yet, I can still walk into any convenience store, gas station, tobacco shop or head shop, & legally purchase all sorts of contraptions sitting right up front in the glass display cases..

Mind you, I don't live in Colorado or WA, either...


If what you say is true, then explain how this is possible...

There was a link in another thread.... I'm not going to look it up, but pretty sure whom I was addressing here knew. It wasn't a universal law, just incidents where people were picked up for paraphernalia only - no drugs.

eta: here
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cigarette-sellers-survive-4.html#post13282534
 
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Stosh

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And yet, I can still walk into any convenience store, gas station, tobacco shop or head shop, & legally purchase all sorts of contraptions sitting right up front in the glass display cases..

Mind you, I don't live in Colorado or WA, either....

I'm guessing you do not live in New Jersey either....:)

Google - Town Tobacconist v. Kimmelman, 94 N.J. 85 (1983)

On October 29, 1980, the Legislature passed a bill, commonly referred to as the Drug Paraphernalia Act (the Act), N.J.S. 24:21–46 to –53 ( L.1980, c. 133), supplementing the New Jersey Controlled Dangerous Substances Act. N.J.S. 24:21–1 to –53. The Act imposes criminal penalties for dealing in various ways with drug paraphernalia.

The NJ supreme court found
We affirm and hold the Act free of the asserted constitutional infirmities
 

DC2

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Here where I live in Vista they did a sweep through the head shops and confiscated everything.
This was, of course, before it became legal to smoke the herb.

I've heard similar posters offer similar stories from other places as well.
If someone decides to enforce these things, they will get enforced.

I also remember stories about the Love Rose...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/04/AR2006040401602.html
 

Kent C

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Here where I live in Vista they did a sweep through the head shops and confiscated everything.
This was, of course, before it became legal to smoke the herb.

I've heard similar posters offer similar stories from other places as well.
If someone decides to enforce these things, they will get enforced.

I also remember stories about the Love Rose...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/04/AR2006040401602.html

Good story. The Marion Barry comment was the cherry on top. :laugh: I hope it doesn't get that way with vaping but if it does, we now have some ideas.

"Keep the mosquitoes away with scented liquid for your patio torches"

796291p.jpg


"Just add a few drops to the wicking"

ejuice-300x300.jpg


"Many different flavors scents available"
 

Gato del Jugo

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There was a link in another thread.... I'm not going to look it up, but pretty sure whom I was addressing here knew. It wasn't a universal law, just incidents where people were picked up for paraphernalia only - no drugs.

eta: here
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...cigarette-sellers-survive-4.html#post13282534

Again, it falls under intent..

As long as it's not marketed as for use with "other stuff," it's perfectly fine..


Sell a ProVari & Nautilus alongside a bottle of zero-nic -- sorry, not a tobacco product...
 

Gato del Jugo

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I'm guessing you do not live in New Jersey either....:)

Huh..?


We currently have 4 convenient locations in New Jersey:

...

We make sure to take the extra time with out customers so that they understand what they are buying and how to use it. Our top priority is to provide our customers with utmost respect and excellent service. We sell everything from pipes, water pipes, tobacco, vaporizers, & hookahs. All our shops have products in easy to see Showcases. We will be adding new products regularly in order to keep our merchandise fresh and current, and carry the best quality products at the best available price in the area. We carry hand blown glass from local blowers, and encourage all glass blowers interested in selling their products at our store to contact us.



Been in business since 2008..

Lots of photos of their products, too...
 

Kent C

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Again, it falls under intent..

As long as it's not marketed as for use with "other stuff," it's perfectly fine..


Sell a ProVari & Nautilus alongside a bottle of zero-nic -- sorry, not a tobacco product...

Believe what you want. I just provided that link - not my 'opinion' - for someone on that thread. Stosh case tends to back it up, but again, whatever. lol
 
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