FDA Why is there no hardware litigation?
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Certain products have become as acceptable as vaping has become demonized. If states were enforcing each and every law on the books there wouldn't be anyone walking around free, including the police.
I'm just pointing out what has been litigated, found constitutional, and a similar law could be enforced if desired against vaping mods and toppers.
Well, they're certainly making it easy for them.. I found a nice little store locator with clickable links...
If it's so illegal, then why is law enforcement just sitting around??
Head Shops, Smoke Shops in New Jersey By City
Stores in Absecon, New Jersey
Stores in Asbury Park, New Jersey
Stores in Bayonne, New Jersey
Stores in Beachwood, New Jersey
Stores in Belmar, New Jersey
Stores in Bloomingdale, New Jersey
Stores in Brick, New Jersey
Stores in Butler, New Jersey
Stores in East Brunswick, New Jersey
Stores in East Hanover, New Jersey
Stores in Edison, New Jersey
Stores in Egg Harbor Township, New Jersey
Stores in Elizabeth, New Jersey
Stores in Englewood, New Jersey
Stores in Freehold, New Jersey
Stores in Glassboro, New Jersey
Stores in Glendora, New Jersey
Stores in Green Brook, New Jersey
Stores in Haledon, New Jersey
Stores in Hasbrouck Heights, New Jersey
Stores in Hoboken, New Jersey
Stores in Jersey City, New Jersey
Stores in Keyport, New Jersey
Stores in Lacey, New Jersey
Stores in Lawrenceville, New Jersey
Stores in Ledgewood, New Jersey
Stores in Little Falls, New Jersey
Stores in Lodi, New Jersey
Stores in Long Branch, New Jersey
Stores in Monroe Township, New Jersey
Stores in Montclair, New Jersey
Stores in Mount Laurel, New Jersey
Stores in New Brunswick, New Jersey
Stores in Newark, New Jersey
Stores in Northfield, New Jersey
Stores in Oaklyn, New Jersey
Stores in Paramus, New Jersey
Stores in Parsippany, New Jersey
Stores in Paterson, New Jersey
Stores in Pennsauken, New Jersey
Stores in Ramsey, New Jersey
Stores in Randolph, New Jersey
Stores in Red Bank, New Jersey
Stores in Scotch Plains, New Jersey
Stores in Seaside Park, New Jersey
Stores in Somerville, New Jersey
Stores in Toms River, New Jersey
Stores in Turnersville, New Jersey
Stores in Union, New Jersey
Stores in Union City, New Jersey
Stores in Voorhees, New Jersey
Stores in Westfield, New Jersey
Stores in Whippany, New Jersey
Stores in Woodbridge, New Jersey
Stores in Woodland Park, New Jersey
You would have to ask the NJ-DOJ, and the police, as long as it's on the books they can crackdown anytime the mood strikes them. May also inquire why some others aren't enforced, NJ has a boatload of useless laws...
Again, not sure what they're waiting for..
It took me 2 seconds to easily find a pretty large public directory of retail stores that carry these things.. Sort it by state, sort it by city, whatever you want...
The listings include the store name, the physical location, the website & phone #, the hours of operation -- even a little map so they can find it!
One could phone law enforcement & give them the exact time & place where a "crime" is being committed.. $100 says they still won't do anything...
Again, it comes down to intent, which even the FDA is going by..
A ProVari & a Nautilus are intended to use with zero-nic e-liquid, which is not a tobacco product...
Just as a glass (water)pipe is intended to use with something else, which is a legal product, even though 99.9% of end-users burn something else in there...
Same.. thing...
I'm not sure why this is such a stretch...
If you can't Google this, feel free to post/PM your city -- and I will find at least one nearby shop for any disbelievers, where they can stop by in person & peruse the wares for themselves with their very own eyes...
I'm not saying what you say about seeing them isn't true, just that in certain cases the some people have been indicted when no drugs were involved as stated in the wiki quote and elsewhere. You get last word
I'm not saying what you say about seeing them isn't true, just that in certain cases the some people have been indicted when no drugs were involved as stated in the wiki quote and elsewhere. You get last word
I'm not going to publicly post links here to these places, as I'm abiding to ECF rules..
But if you're interested, by all means, let me know which town/city works best for you & I'll PM you...
Head Shops, Smoke Shops in Ohio By City
Stores in Akron, Ohio
Stores in Ashland, Ohio
Stores in Athens, Ohio
Stores in Barberton, Ohio
Stores in Berea, Ohio
Stores in Blanchester, Ohio
Stores in Boardman, Ohio
Stores in Bowling Green, Ohio
Stores in Brunswick, Ohio
Stores in Canton, Ohio
Stores in Cheviot, Ohio
Stores in Chillicothe, Ohio
Stores in Cincinnati, Ohio
Stores in Cleveland, Ohio
Stores in Cleveland Heights, Ohio
Stores in Columbia Station, Ohio
Stores in Columbus, Ohio
Stores in Dayton, Ohio
Stores in Delaware, Ohio
Stores in Delphos, Ohio
Stores in Dublin, Ohio
Stores in Eastlake, Ohio
Stores in Elyria, Ohio
Stores in Fairborn, Ohio
Stores in Fairview Park, Ohio
Stores in Findlay, Ohio
Stores in Gahanna, Ohio
Stores in Garfield Heights, Ohio
Stores in Girard, Ohio
Stores in Grove City, Ohio
Stores in Hamilton, Ohio
Stores in Heath, Ohio
Stores in Holland, Ohio
Stores in Ironton, Ohio
Stores in Kent, Ohio
Stores in Lakewood, Ohio
Stores in Lancaster, Ohio
Stores in Lebanon, Ohio
Stores in Lewis Center, Ohio
Stores in Lima, Ohio
Stores in Lorain, Ohio
Stores in Loveland, Ohio
Stores in Mansfield, Ohio
Stores in Mayfield Heights, Ohio
Stores in Mentor, Ohio
Stores in Mentor On The Lake, Ohio
Stores in Miamisburg, Ohio
Stores in Mount Vernon, Ohio
Stores in Nelsonville, Ohio
Stores in New Carlisle, Ohio
Stores in New Philadelphia, Ohio
Stores in Niles, Ohio
Stores in Northwood, Ohio
Stores in Ontario, Ohio
Stores in Oxford, Ohio
Stores in Parma, Ohio
Stores in Piqua, Ohio
Stores in Ravenna, Ohio
Stores in Reynoldsburg, Ohio
Stores in Sandusky, Ohio
Stores in Sharonville, Ohio
Stores in Sidney, Ohio
Stores in South Euclid, Ohio
Stores in South Point, Ohio
Stores in Streetsboro, Ohio
Stores in Strongsville, Ohio
Stores in Tallmadge, Ohio
Stores in Toledo, Ohio
Stores in Union, Ohio
Stores in Wellington, Ohio
Stores in West Carrollton, Ohio
Stores in Wheelersburg, Ohio
Stores in Willoughby, Ohio
Stores in Wooster, Ohio
Stores in Yellow Springs, Ohio
Stores in Youngstown, Ohio
Again, not sure what they're waiting for..
It took me 2 seconds to easily find a pretty large public directory of retail stores that carry these things.. Sort it by state, sort it by city, whatever you want...
The listings include the store name, the physical location, the website & phone #, the hours of operation -- even a little map so they can find it!
One could phone law enforcement & give them the exact time & place where a "crime" is being committed.. $100 says they still won't do anything......
So by your logic, if I drive down the highway and 90% of the drivers are exceeding the speed limit, it means the speed limit has been removed and no one needs to be worried about being pulled over.
If one buys something over the internet and doesn't pay state sales tax, it means the sales tax is repealed everywhere?
Currently the "shops" are selling items that are considered "politically correct" in 2014, subject to change, the current laws can be enforced to shut them down tomorrow if it became a desired enforcement.
I understand the logic to mean that there is very little chance it would be fully enforced, and to think it would, is contrary to so many experiences with the law, that it is preposterous to consider the notions that all products will be gone, from existence, once these laws are put into place.
Arguably, everything Gato listed would be 'black market.' Yet, some here insist black market means going to dark side of town, where everyone is fully strapped, meeting in a back alley and talking to an ex-felon to obtain product. And who wants to do that? Therefore, the product will be nearly impossible to obtain and this is because they have found a magical choke point that will curtail industry down to next to zero product.
Almost every year from the moment I started smoking, that product was considered way worse than what eCigs are currently being portrayed as. And yet, kids have almost zero problem getting smokes. Wonder how many of them are going into worst possible places to get those smokes?
And all this that I write about relates to liquid, as much as it does hardware. But hardware is type of product in this equation that as post #13 rightfully notes, a toaster could become illegal for purchase under logic of some in this thread.
Depends on what you consider enforcement, going after individual shops or sellers is not the feds way. Operation Choke Point by the DOJ is targeting large swaths of LEGAL businesses, denying them bank access of any sort. The DOJ is including tobacco and "other shops" in their list of targets. It's much easier to crush socially unacceptable behavior by cutting their access to money through the banks, than going after each individual business.
To think that enforcement would be a problem, or easily avoided if mods or eliquid were deemed regulated is whistling past the graveyard.
Operation Choke Point has been defunded by the House. Senate still gets to weigh in, but main point here is that some powerful people vehemently disagree with choking which you are painting as easy schmeasy thing for authorities to do. This tangent which I am arguing about is letting you know it will be next to impossible for it to actually occur.
And to think enforcement would easily be able to keep up with the wide usage is burying your head in the graveyard while pretending like you have full scope on what's going on, all around you.
When people use head shops as an example, I wonder if they have considered...
Nobody with tons of money CARES whether or not people are selling drug-paraphernalia out in the open.
Sure, some people get a bug in their pants about it, but nobody with power and influence cares.
That will not be true when it comes to electronic cigarette paraphernalia.
If Big Tobacco and Big Pharma and Big Government decide that they don't want it happening, it seems to me it won't be happening.
Nobody with tons of money CARES whether or not people are selling drug-paraphernalia out in the open.
Sure, some people get a bug in their pants about it, but nobody with power and influence cares.
That will not be true when it comes to electronic cigarette paraphernalia.
If Big Tobacco and Big Pharma and Big Government decide that they don't want it happening, it seems to me it won't be happening.
And yet we have a very well known War on Drugs that has been waged for decades. But magically nobody cares about that item that taxpayers have spent a trillion or so dollars on.
If Big Crime decides they want it to happen, it'll happen.
Guaranteed.
If Big Crime decides they want it to happen, it'll happen.
Guaranteed.
I can't see Big Crime as finding this a very lucrative black-market industry.
Especially when there are cigarettes on every corner, and Big Tobacco electronic ones on every corner as well.
The only economist that I know of that even understands that there is an underground vaping movement is Bonnie Herzog.
And I don't think she is factoring us in very strongly with her economic predictions.
But I could be wrong about that.
It would be nice if someone on a vaping show would interview her.
I would definitely watch that.
Before I retired, I spent much of my working life in industries that were impacted greatly by new government regulations. For the record, none were under Food and Drug. One industry was a bit similar in that it had been unregulated and new regulations changes the entire makeup of it. MANY companies shut their doors. Some NEEDED to do that as they were...shall we say, less than honorable. Most however were doing exactly what they promised to do and because they had not made obscene amounts of money by being crooks, could not afford all that was now required and make their services affordable for consumers, must less keep their doors open. The "bad apples" -who were VERY bad, had made the entire industry a target for regulation. In both instances, things done BEFORE the law went into effect, as long as they were not in violation of laws existing at the time of their creation were exempt. If that holds out for this, I would think manufacturing will ramp up significantly before the law goes into effect. For consumers of e juice, I would think our best move would be to either stockpile the things we can and hope for the best.
I am OLD. it's one of the reasons I am learning DYI skills, I can probably stockpile enough nicotine to see me to my end. I believe that only the nic used in the juice will covered by regulations, not flavorings , PG or VG. As for equipment - pipes and items of that nature did not increase in costs in the same manner as cigarettes and tobacco.
The government has an endless supply of attorneys. They will win this battle. How harsh the rules will be is still an unknown. Once the dust settles, the industry that will benefit the most will be BIG TOBACCO. It is my opinion that big tobacco pushed for this, behind closed doors and by poking the bears. I have not seen reports of poisoned juice, recalls for bacteria or other things that would normally attract the feds. I believe big tobacco have their R & D people working now to replicate their brands and flavors into e-juice and creating more. It is likely their lobbyists are working hard at insuring the law is written in a manner beneficial to them. Again, I have seen that in action. A large portion of one of the laws I saw enacted was almost word for word taken from one of the opposing industries proposals.
Obviously, taxes and other costs will pass onto consumers. A bottle of e-juice is likely to be priced at a similar cost of a pack of analogs. Sadly, many of the flavors we have come to love will disappear as those who create them simply will not be able to afford to meet all that the law will require of them. And, if like analogs we will be unable to purchase them via the internet by mail, we will be limited to whatever is available in our own area. Stores will close. Sites will be closed. Many will lose their jobs.
I hope i am wrong. But, I've been there and seen that. I will pray for the best but prepare for the worst.
I am OLD. it's one of the reasons I am learning DYI skills, I can probably stockpile enough nicotine to see me to my end. I believe that only the nic used in the juice will covered by regulations, not flavorings , PG or VG. As for equipment - pipes and items of that nature did not increase in costs in the same manner as cigarettes and tobacco.
The government has an endless supply of attorneys. They will win this battle. How harsh the rules will be is still an unknown. Once the dust settles, the industry that will benefit the most will be BIG TOBACCO. It is my opinion that big tobacco pushed for this, behind closed doors and by poking the bears. I have not seen reports of poisoned juice, recalls for bacteria or other things that would normally attract the feds. I believe big tobacco have their R & D people working now to replicate their brands and flavors into e-juice and creating more. It is likely their lobbyists are working hard at insuring the law is written in a manner beneficial to them. Again, I have seen that in action. A large portion of one of the laws I saw enacted was almost word for word taken from one of the opposing industries proposals.
Obviously, taxes and other costs will pass onto consumers. A bottle of e-juice is likely to be priced at a similar cost of a pack of analogs. Sadly, many of the flavors we have come to love will disappear as those who create them simply will not be able to afford to meet all that the law will require of them. And, if like analogs we will be unable to purchase them via the internet by mail, we will be limited to whatever is available in our own area. Stores will close. Sites will be closed. Many will lose their jobs.
I hope i am wrong. But, I've been there and seen that. I will pray for the best but prepare for the worst.
Seeing as making zero nicotine liquid will be next to impossible to regulate short of making vaping illegal, and the fact that anyone can cobble together with perfectly legal items a device of some sort to vaporize that liquid, I find it difficult to envision a future without a core of vapors post any form of regulation.
By the time this all pans out I will be at zero nicotine, and if at all possible I will have enough hardware available to base future designs for creating my own RBAs or RDAs.
I assume there are more rush to buy consumers now, so it would be highly unlikely that any damages are occurring at this point of the process. Thus no real grounds for litigation that would be fruitful.
I would think at least.
Maurice
By the time this all pans out I will be at zero nicotine, and if at all possible I will have enough hardware available to base future designs for creating my own RBAs or RDAs.
I assume there are more rush to buy consumers now, so it would be highly unlikely that any damages are occurring at this point of the process. Thus no real grounds for litigation that would be fruitful.
I would think at least.
Maurice
Until the Senate concurs, it's fully funded and in operation. This program is attacking LEGAL businesses, with FDA restrictions and regulations, we may not have the luxury of legality.
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