FDA Why is there no hardware litigation?

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Gato del Jugo

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So by your logic, if I drive down the highway and 90% of the drivers are exceeding the speed limit, it means the speed limit has been removed and no one needs to be worried about being pulled over.

If one buys something over the internet and doesn't pay state sales tax, it means the sales tax is repealed everywhere?

Currently the "shops" are selling items that are considered "politically correct" in 2014, subject to change, the current laws can be enforced to shut them down tomorrow if it became a desired enforcement.

This has been taken off-course..


Once again, it comes down to intent..

The reason this "drug paraphernalia" is able to be legally sold throughout the country in plain view is because it is not labeled or marketed as such.. Instead, it's labeled/marketed/intended for tobacco use, which is not illegal..

Which brings up the question: Where do water-pipes, for example, fall in these FDA deeming regs? Could this also be considered a back-door attack on the "other stuff" industry?


Anyway, the reason these are legally sold in NJ, for instance, despite any laws on the books, is because these retail businesses are not saying, "Hey, come buy these to use with 'other stuff'!" -- even though 99.9% of the end-users do not burn tobacco in there...

There are no crimes being committed there, as tobacco is perfectly legal.. Hence, why they don't get busted..

And for those that do, there are usually other reasons why, perhaps despite their public claims of innocence..

I'm a little familiar with the Tommy Chong thing, which was mentioned somewhere.. But keep in mind, this happened 11 years ago, when times were a little different.. There were also apparently other factors in that case which ended up pushing it over that blurred line, making it a dark-enough shade of gray to get the place shut down & Tommy thrown in prison for a bit...


Bringing it back to vaping: I still fail to see how the FDA will be able to regulate my ProVari & various toppers, which are used to vape my zero-nic non-WTA e-liquid -- without any kind of lawsuits putting them back in their rightful place & rightful jurisdiction..

Again, none of this set-up is a tobacco product.. despite arguably members of Congress & BP's insistence that it is, causing Zeller to state that "it's complicated" against a back-drop of the FDA throwing everything at the wall & hoping at least some of it sticks over the longer-term...
 

Stosh

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This has been taken off-course..


Once again, it comes down to intent..

The reason this "drug paraphernalia" is able to be legally sold throughout the country in plain view is because it is not labeled or marketed as such.. Instead, it's labeled/marketed/intended for tobacco use, which is not illegal..

The NJ Supreme Court addressed intent as used by the defendants in Town Tobacconist v. Kimmelman
The phrase "used or intended for use", that appears a dozen times renders the definition of drug paraphernalia unlawfully vague. It is impossible for any retailer to know whose use or whose intention he must be aware of.

The court found that....
rejected the trial court's finding that the statute's definition of drug paraphernalia was vague and concluded that none of its challenged substantive provisions violated the Constitution. We granted certification. 91 N.J. 248 (1982).

We affirm and hold the Act free of the asserted constitutional infirmities.

But, but, but, it's labeled for <whatever> use only, the court said...
It looks like a duck, it quacks like a duck, it's a duck...

Lax enforcement does not preclude any possibility of enforcement. An attorney general get a bug up their .... by the local ANTZ and all the B&M in the neighborhood gets shut down, stock seized. Relying on intent is a false hope that's already been addressed in the legal system.
 

Gato del Jugo

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The NJ Supreme Court addressed intent as used by the defendants in Town Tobacconist v. Kimmelman

That was the ruling of the Appellate Division of the NJ Superior Court -- it didn't go to the NJ Supreme Court..

Their decision was based on the US Supreme Court case back in 1982, which the decision was reached as the NJ case was being heard.. Hoffman Estates v. The Flipside, Hoffman Estates, Inc., 455 U.S. 489 (1982)..

Hoffman Estates v. The Flipside, Hoffman Estates, Inc. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


This part is interesting..

Drug paraphernalia is still sold today, but in a legal gray area. Congress passed a federal ban in 1986; in all states save West Virginia (which just requires a license) paraphernalia is prohibited as well. Often they are accompanied by signs that remind purchasers they are meant for legal purposes only; retailers will also deny any sale where a customer mentions illegal use. Many sellers have moved to the Internet, where the industry has once reached, according to a 2003 estimate, a billion dollars in annual sales.

Hoffman Estates v. The Flipside, Hoffman Estates, Inc. - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Check out that photo!)


And I bet that actual amount of annual revenue is a lot bigger in 2014..

Again, of course it comes down to intent.. The bulk of that industry is safe -- it's only when some stupid few start pushing the envelope a little too much for the authorities to ignore, that they get busted.. It's what makes the news... Meanwhile, at least a billion in annual revenue quietly continues in plain sight, year after year after year, without a hiccup...


Relying on intent is a false hope that's already been addressed in the legal system.

Intent, i.e., zero-nic, is false hope?

One could easily argue that it's the vaping industry's best hope.. Zero-nic is the glue that ties together everything vape-related that's not nic base, from PVs to toppers to flavors...
 

bigdancehawk

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Both Congress and the FDA have done a horrible job specifying or, more accurately, failing to specify to what extent (if at all) PVD hardware might fall under the FDA's regulatory authority. Some attempts on ECF to paraphrase how the statute and the proposed regulations define "tobacco products" have not been accurate. So, it's important to first look at the exact language before trying to figure out what a "tobacco product" is. Here is the statutory definition:

SEC. 101. AMENDMENT OF FEDERAL FOOD, DRUG, AND COSMETIC ACT.
(a) DEFINITION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS.—Section 201 of the
Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 321) is amended
by adding at the end the following:
‘‘(rr)(1) The term ‘tobacco product’ means any product made
or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption,
including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product
(except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing
a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product).
‘‘(2) The term ‘tobacco product’ does not mean an article that
is a drug under subsection (g)(1), a device under subsection (h),
or a combination product described in section 503(g).
‘‘(3) The products described in paragraph (2) shall be subject
to chapter V of this Act.


The terms "component," "part," "accessory" are not defined.

The FDA has made an attempt to interpret what these words mean (I've bolded the most relevant portions):

FDA considers accessories of
proposed deemed products to be those
items that are not included as part of a
finished tobacco product or intended or
expected to be used by consumers in the
consumption of a tobacco product, and
we expect that they will not have a
significant impact on the public health.
In addition, FDA considers accessories
to be those items that may be used in
the storage or personal possession of a
proposed deemed product. Therefore,
items such as hookah tongs, bags, cases,
charcoal burners and holders, as well as
cigar foil cutters, humidors, carriers,
and lighters would be considered
accessories and would not fall within
the scope of this proposed rule.
Section
201(rr) of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C.
321(rr)), as amended by the Tobacco
Control Act, defines the term ‘‘tobacco
product’’ to mean ‘‘any product made or
derived from tobacco that is intended
for human consumption, including any
component, part, or accessory of a
tobacco product (except for raw
materials other than tobacco used in
manufacturing a component, part, or
accessory of a tobacco product).’’ 1
Products that meet the statutory
definition of ‘‘tobacco products’’ can
include
currently marketed products
such as certain dissolvables, gels,
hookah tobacco, electronic cigarettes,
cigars, and pipe tobacco. Components
and parts of tobacco products, but not
their related accessories, would also be
included in the scope of this proposed
rule. Components and parts are
included as part of a finished tobacco
product or intended for consumer use in
the consumption of a tobacco product.

Components and parts that would be
covered under this proposal include
those items sold separately or as part of
kits sold or distributed for consumer use
or further manufacturing or included as
part of a finished tobacco product. Such
examples would include air/smoke
filters, tubes, papers, pouches, or
flavorings used for any of the proposed
deemed tobacco products (such as
flavored hookah charcoals and hookah
flavor enhancers) or cartridges for ecigarettes.

The proposed rule also deems
any future tobacco products that meet
the statutory definition of ‘‘tobacco
product’’ except accessories of such
product to be subject to FDA’s
authorities under chapter IX of the
FD&C Act. For example, FDA envisions
that there could be tobacco products
developed in the future that provide
nicotine delivery (e.g., via dermal or
buccal absorption), similar to currently
marketed medicinal nicotine products,
but which are not marketed for
therapeutic purposes. would be ‘‘tobacco products’’ and
subject to FDA’s chapter IX authorities
should the deeming rule be finalized.

So is an empty tank a "component, part or accessory"? An atomizer? A mod? How does a mod with a tank screwed onto it differ conceptually from a pipe?

The statutory definition of "tobacco product" doesn't provide clear answers to these questions. The FDA's inclusion of cartridges for electronic cigarettes appears to be based on the mistaken assumption that all such cartridges are pre-filled. This is evidenced somewhat by the fact that the FDA's other examples of "components and parts" appear to be consumable goods. Pipes aren't mentioned, nor are atomizers, tanks and mods. From reading other sections of the statute, it seems likely that "components" refers to such things as additives, e.g., flavorings and other things that are added to the tobacco itself.

As I've said before, the statute wasn't written with e-cigarettes in mind. It specifically addresses analog cigarettes, cigars, little cigars, snuff, chewing tobacco, all other kinds of smokeless tobacco, loose and roll-your-own tobacco, and so forth. There is nothing in the statute to suggest that Congress gave even a passing thought to e-cigarettes/PVDs. The FDA is now trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

It is entirely possible that a federal court looking at the statute would determine that the definition of "tobacco product" doesn't cover things like mods, tanks and the like. After the comment period is over, the regs are finalized, and after whatever administrative processes are exhausted, it will be possible to litigate this issue before the regulations go into effect.
 

Gato del Jugo

ProVarinati
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{MODERATED}

D'oh! Sorry..

Okay for a summary?


A few months ago, a YouTube prankster (VitalyzdTv) & a couple friends walked around a city (Columbus, OH, I believe) while smoking tobacco from a water-pipe..

Obviously cops on-the-beat stop them to investigate.. Hilarity ensues..

Once they deterimine it's only tobacco, they let them off...


It's arguably funnier than I described it.. :D

Interesting watch, IMO...
 

DaveP

PV Master & Musician
ECF Veteran
May 22, 2010
16,733
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This entire issue boils down to competition between the big tobacco companies and the mom and pop ecig industry. BT wants ALL of the 4 billion dollar business model or as much as they can get. The BLU and its BT counterparts aren't going to enable them to take over the entire industry. Backing the FDA and the CDC by encouraging control over what kind of juices and devices are sold will enable them.

I can see mods with VV and VW capabilities being regulated in terms of wattage ranges they can produce. I wouldn't be surprised if the FDA didn't regulate or at least require mods to be approved. Of course, one could include a 510 thread LED flashlight head on a Provari or Zmax and call it a variable brightness flashlight. We've kicked that around here before.

Without juice there is no market for delivery devices. Without nicotine base there is no DIY capability. There are many ways the government could regulate the market and leave only no nic products to buy. I don't see that happening because that would kill the BLU and other tobacco corporation products.

If you dig deep enough I'm sure you'll find big tobacco at the heart of this action. Stopping Chinese imports of ecig related items would bring vaping to an idle at least. There would only be USA made liquids available.
 
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Jman8

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Jan 15, 2013
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The statutory definition of "tobacco product" doesn't provide clear answers to these questions. The FDA's inclusion of cartridges for electronic cigarettes appears to be based on the mistaken assumption that all such cartridges are pre-filled. This is evidenced somewhat by the fact that the FDA's other examples of "components and parts" appear to be consumable goods. Pipes aren't mentioned, nor are atomizers, tanks and mods. From reading other sections of the statute, it seems likely that "components" refers to such things as additives, e.g., flavorings and other things that are added to the tobacco itself.

As I've said before, the statute wasn't written with e-cigarettes in mind. It specifically addresses analog cigarettes, cigars, little cigars, snuff, chewing tobacco, all other kinds of smokeless tobacco, loose and roll-your-own tobacco, and so forth. There is nothing in the statute to suggest that Congress gave even a passing thought to e-cigarettes/PVDs. The FDA is now trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

Because the statute wasn't written with eCigs in mind, it is implausible to think that what we advanced vapers know to be vaping paraphernalia will surely be included. While entirely plausible to realize that eJuice will likely be included. And yet, even with eJuice, it will be a little tough in the case where it contains zero nicotine, or no ingredients that are derived from tobacco. It seems entirely reasonable that they must first get a handle on that aspect, otherwise they could be spread way way way too thin trying to keep up with an industry that even gurus on ECF can't exactly keep up with.

Because kids are vaping 0 nicotine, it does make sense to go after devices, if you have issue with kids vaping 0 nicotine. I do not, and here on ECF, I'm always glad to challenge fellow vapers who do have issue with kids vaping 0 nicotine. But going after devices in my estimation sounds really simple whereas reality is that sort of enforcement could go on for a hundred years and still be way behind the curve. It's not like vapers vaping nicotine invented vaping. And in an industry taking off in many directions, where vaping nicotine need not be the predominant item of use, a regulatory body would best be served to not include this in the tobacco act. As that is the case right now, and demonstrates how far behind they actually are, it bodes well for vapers in the foreseeable future.
 

Catdumpling

Full Member
May 30, 2014
69
113
Colorado, USA
Both Congress and the FDA have done a horrible job specifying or, more accurately, failing to specify to what extent (if at all) PVD hardware might fall under the FDA's regulatory authority. Some attempts on ECF to paraphrase how the statute and the proposed regulations define "tobacco products" have not been accurate. So, it's important to first look at the exact language before trying to figure out what a "tobacco product" is. Here is the statutory definition:

SEC. 101. AMENDMENT OF FEDERAL FOOD, DRUG, AND COSMETIC ACT.
(a) DEFINITION OF TOBACCO PRODUCTS.—Section 201 of the
Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act (21 U.S.C. 321) is amended
by adding at the end the following:
‘‘(rr)(1) The term ‘tobacco product’ means any product made
or derived from tobacco that is intended for human consumption,
including any component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product
(except for raw materials other than tobacco used in manufacturing
a component, part, or accessory of a tobacco product).
‘‘(2) The term ‘tobacco product’ does not mean an article that
is a drug under subsection (g)(1), a device under subsection (h),
or a combination product described in section 503(g).
‘‘(3) The products described in paragraph (2) shall be subject
to chapter V of this Act.


The terms "component," "part," "accessory" are not defined.

The FDA has made an attempt to interpret what these words mean (I've bolded the most relevant portions):

FDA considers accessories of
proposed deemed products to be those
items that are not included as part of a
finished tobacco product or intended or
expected to be used by consumers in the
consumption of a tobacco product, and
we expect that they will not have a
significant impact on the public health.
In addition, FDA considers accessories
to be those items that may be used in
the storage or personal possession of a
proposed deemed product. Therefore,
items such as hookah tongs, bags, cases,
charcoal burners and holders, as well as
cigar foil cutters, humidors, carriers,
and lighters would be considered
accessories and would not fall within
the scope of this proposed rule.
Section
201(rr) of the FD&C Act (21 U.S.C.
321(rr)), as amended by the Tobacco
Control Act, defines the term ‘‘tobacco
product’’ to mean ‘‘any product made or
derived from tobacco that is intended
for human consumption, including any
component, part, or accessory of a
tobacco product (except for raw
materials other than tobacco used in
manufacturing a component, part, or
accessory of a tobacco product).’’ 1
Products that meet the statutory
definition of ‘‘tobacco products’’ can
include
currently marketed products
such as certain dissolvables, gels,
hookah tobacco, electronic cigarettes,
cigars, and pipe tobacco. Components
and parts of tobacco products, but not
their related accessories, would also be
included in the scope of this proposed
rule. Components and parts are
included as part of a finished tobacco
product or intended for consumer use in
the consumption of a tobacco product.

Components and parts that would be
covered under this proposal include
those items sold separately or as part of
kits sold or distributed for consumer use
or further manufacturing or included as
part of a finished tobacco product. Such
examples would include air/smoke
filters, tubes, papers, pouches, or
flavorings used for any of the proposed
deemed tobacco products (such as
flavored hookah charcoals and hookah
flavor enhancers) or cartridges for ecigarettes.

The proposed rule also deems
any future tobacco products that meet
the statutory definition of ‘‘tobacco
product’’ except accessories of such
product to be subject to FDA’s
authorities under chapter IX of the
FD&C Act. For example, FDA envisions
that there could be tobacco products
developed in the future that provide
nicotine delivery (e.g., via dermal or
buccal absorption), similar to currently
marketed medicinal nicotine products,
but which are not marketed for
therapeutic purposes. would be ‘‘tobacco products’’ and
subject to FDA’s chapter IX authorities
should the deeming rule be finalized.

So is an empty tank a "component, part or accessory"? An atomizer? A mod? How does a mod with a tank screwed onto it differ conceptually from a pipe?

The statutory definition of "tobacco product" doesn't provide clear answers to these questions. The FDA's inclusion of cartridges for electronic cigarettes appears to be based on the mistaken assumption that all such cartridges are pre-filled. This is evidenced somewhat by the fact that the FDA's other examples of "components and parts" appear to be consumable goods. Pipes aren't mentioned, nor are atomizers, tanks and mods. From reading other sections of the statute, it seems likely that "components" refers to such things as additives, e.g., flavorings and other things that are added to the tobacco itself.

As I've said before, the statute wasn't written with e-cigarettes in mind. It specifically addresses analog cigarettes, cigars, little cigars, snuff, chewing tobacco, all other kinds of smokeless tobacco, loose and roll-your-own tobacco, and so forth. There is nothing in the statute to suggest that Congress gave even a passing thought to e-cigarettes/PVDs. The FDA is now trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

It is entirely possible that a federal court looking at the statute would determine that the definition of "tobacco product" doesn't cover things like mods, tanks and the like. After the comment period is over, the regs are finalized, and after whatever administrative processes are exhausted, it will be possible to litigate this issue before the regulations go into effect.

And that's why I think a good portion of the non-liquid stuff will be thrown out or ignored; there's just too much overreach and crossover into other industries/hobbies/etc for the FDA to bother with most hardware (most, but probably not all). Given the snail's pace in which they already work, it would take them ten years just to figure out what actually constitutes the majority of vaping "accessories" and hardware. Even the flavorings, PG and VG on their own are too widely used in so many other industries (not to mention being pretty innocuous on their own anyway.) I still think their main focus is going to be nicotine-containing liquids, as well as some purpose-made hardware (like prefilled carts and maybe stick batteries.)

As with anything in this discussion, these are just my opinions. But I think one of the reasons it took them so long to get around to ecigs in the first place is because they most likely know they have little authority over most aspects of it. Of course, as someone else already pointed out, nicotine is something they do have authority over and if they heavily restrict that much of the industry would automatically fall.
 

Gato del Jugo

ProVarinati
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And that's why I think a good portion of the non-liquid stuff will be thrown out or ignored; there's just too much overreach and crossover into other industries/hobbies/etc for the FDA to bother with most hardware (most, but probably not all). Given the snail's pace in which they already work, it would take them ten years just to figure out what actually constitutes the majority of vaping "accessories" and hardware. Even the flavorings, PG and VG on their own are too widely used in so many other industries (not to mention being pretty innocuous on their own anyway.) I still think their main focus is going to be nicotine-containing liquids, as well as some purpose-made hardware (like prefilled carts and maybe stick batteries.)

As with anything in this discussion, these are just my opinions. But I think one of the reasons it took them so long to get around to ecigs in the first place is because they most likely know they have little authority over most aspects of it. Of course, as someone else already pointed out, nicotine is something they do have authority over and if they heavily restrict that much of the industry would automatically fall.

The FDA is certainly shooting for the stars..

Whether they'll be happy just hitting the moon is another story..

They are a business trying to pull in that revenue (from BP), after all...
 

the_vape_nerd

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Why is there no hardware litigation?

If you are Referring to a Lawsuit, I believe you have to have an Injured Party First.

This is often true, but not always.

A litigant can sue or bring an action for likely future harm. It is done all the time in the federal courts you can file a petition for declaratory judgment. You can file suits for mandamus (i.e., to have the courts order some federal agency or official to do or not do a thing). You can file for injunctions preventing a person or agency from doing a thing if you can prove that such actions will likely result in substantial harm to a person or group of persons.

The state courts have similar procedural remedies.
 
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