wire wool?

[trog100]

the pic isnt an old dead atomizer.. just one i had been using for week.. the magnification makes it look more yucky than what it is.. for example look how clean the white ceramic pot looks..

it was taken just to show folks what the business end of an e cig looks like.. not to show how yucky the little heater coil looks..

but this forum has been around for over a year.. many many thousands of posts have been made on it.. what i find interesting and even frustrating is how little we seem to have learned in all this time and why..

it used to have around 20 or so active users all seeing themselves as experimenters into a new thing that nobody knew much about.. theorizing was the order of the day.. now its hundreds and theorizing is still the order of the day..

but after all these posts and all this time some of this theorizing should have materialized into something vagueing resembling factual information.. a few well written stickies and a simple FAQ should tell most of what folks need to know..

but it dosnt seem to have done.. as a fun and addictive place to be this place is fun.. as a place for suppliers to promote their line of products it works well.. as a place just for like minded folks to pass time it works well...

but as a dispenser of valid and factual information its an utter failure.. sorry guys and gals but after all this time we should know not still be blundering in the dark as we are..

this place is here to put bums on seats.. it has done this remarkably well.. but as somewhere to visit and quickly learn its f-cking useless.. he he

i am kind of addicted to this place.. perhaps we all have addictive personalities dunno.. i feel i have to come here just to keep abreast of whats going on in the general e cig world... i do find it very frustrating to try and pass on anything i have learned over the past year tho.. its mostly disagreed with or ignored.. or simply goes off the front page for the same question to be asked over and over again..

i think a lot of the old timers have given up trying to pass on what they have learned simply because no one here listens..

just my thoughts on this place.. make of them what you will..

trog

 

[Sun Vaporer]

You can even do a mini test of placing a tissue around the cart and drawing through the tissue. No discolouration after use...

Doostin--I have tryed that and you are right---

You can make a *very scientific* experiment

Take a pieces of withe fibre and exhale uninhaled vapor throw it and see what residual gets into the fibre, now (if you can stand the oddor) take a cigarette and do the same with uninhaled smoke and see what it's left in the fibre, the results are pretty amazing!

Lithium--It is amazing and that smell of the cigarette was nasty--

If you really want to know what the inside of your lungs look like when vaping, just take an empty clear jam jar and keep vaping into it without inhaling --you will find their is not much to see--actually very boring at the same time as being very enlighting. You are not going to get any black gunk even if you sit there doing it for a month straight---Sun

As for the Glass Jar--what I do not see speaks volumes--so I could be wrong--but I am not buying that what is on that coil is anything more than unvaporated e-liquid--whether their is also core material in it is still an issue to be decided after using 2 atomizers (one pure dripping and one pure cartridge use) for a week and then have a good 10 power look---Sun

 

[surbitonPete]

Hey Trog I guess pretty much all the problems are still just the same as when you pioneers started ......I know you resolved most of them by building your screwdriver....It's a pity you can't also find a simple cheap way to build a long lasting atomizer and cart... that would pretty much solve everything. ....but we sure wouldn't have much to talk about any more though.....

 

[Sun Vaporer]

but this forum has been around for over a year.. many many thousands of posts have been made on it.. what i find interesting and even frustrating is how little we seem to have learned in all this time and why..

it used to have around 20 or so active users all seeing themselves as experimenters into a new thing that nobody knew much about.. theorizing was the order of the day.. now its hundreds and theorizing is still the order of the day..

but after all these posts and all this time some of this theorizing should have materialized into something vagueing resembling factual information.. a few well written stickies and a simple FAQ should tell most of what folks need to know..

but it dosnt seem to have done..
but as a dispenser of valid and factual information its an utter failure.. sorry guys and gals but after all this time we should know not still be blundering in the dark as we are.....
just my thoughts on this place.. make of them what you will..

trog

Trog--I welcome your comment and respect what you are trying to say, but there is a very good reason that we "Theroize", just as Doctors do--as their is no black or white answers with many issues--and when you think you have one and post it--10 people will post that "it does not work for me"--which may very well be as some theories will not work for everyone on every device. There is very little that is definative here. Even the name of the device is not definative---so give a little slack to those of us that are stepping up to the plate and doing some work to troubleshoot problems that have not been tackeled yet.

Most members here are open to suggestion and are very good at reporting feedback of different ideas. Your quest for pure facts, as much as we would all like that, is just not practical on many issues and I do not find this Forum to be, as you say:

"is a dispenser of valid and factual information [that is] an utter failure." While I have great respect for the many posts I have read by you and the Screwdriver you produce out of a flashlight--I can not concur that every idea posted should either be black or white or not discussed and that this Forum is an utter failure at dispensing valuable information to its Members---Sun

 

[surbitonPete]

I am with you sun ...there is always a chance that a slight variation on a tried, tested and finally dismissed idea might make a world of difference......that's why it's all still worth talking about......the forum would be redundant if all problems were already solved.

 

[exogenesis]

...but after all these posts and all this time some of this theorizing should have materialized
into something vagueing resembling factual information.. a few well written stickies and a simple FAQ should tell
most of what folks need to know...

Isn't that what the wiki was set up for ?,
but I agree a few informative FAQ type stickies would be good as well...
Perhaps some of the 'best threads' should be chosen & highlighted somehow.


Just about to do my 2nd complete dismantle of a 'working' but consistently yecckh tasting atomizer.
I have it in mind to try that truly effective organic matter remover -
conc. sulphuric acid (but very carefully).

The idea is that syrupy strength acid is not so metal corrosive, but very organics dissolving,
still it might weaken the coil wire though.
Hopefully I'll see a black gunged coil turn clean & bright & shiny - maybe without completely dissolving it.

Doubt if I'll get this one back together again in a working state tho.,
need a pictorial tutorial on how to completely dis-assemble & re-assemble one to a working state.

Also going to try balled-up fine stainless steel wire (0.15mm diam) as a cart filler,
and see if I can get as good results as TribbleTroublewith the balled up steel atomizer mesh

TribbleTrouble did you use all the mesh from an atomizer, or just some of it?

This is what I get out og one atomizer (minus one small circle):


Very strange formation that mesh: very open, but 'spikey', almost sintered-looking.
Fairly poor piccy with webcam & magnifying glass lashup:

 

[smokindeuce]

I'm inclined to go with Trog and Kates theory on this one that the liquid is largely responsible for the crud....

Pete - I used 2 epipes at one point last year and I exclusively dripped - no contact whatsoever with cart wool. Anyway, like most of the atomisers out there vapour production eventually started to diminish and I would get that 'burnt taste' as the crud built up. I don't think the glycerine homebrew mixes I used helped too much with speeding up their demise, but inevitably it was the liquid that killed them. I believe that the thinner and purer (ie. clearer) the liquid, the longer you'll get from your atomiser.

That's not to say that having loose strands of cart fibres melting onto the wire mesh helps at all because it clearly can't. So the best way to improve atomiser longevity IMO is to tentatively drip smoke (2-3 drops) ensuring never to flood the atomiser and don't thicken the liquid more than necessary.

I just dug up an old email from a customer who used some of the cleaning solution we sell to good effect-here is the email he sent me:

'Soaked 3 901 atomisers last night in your cleaning fluid and hot water. Two were well under par and one had given up the ghost a long time ago.
This morning I dried them and tried them on my usb battery. WOW!!!! all back to full strength after SOAKING the atomiser with e-liquid.

This is necessary 'cos the cleaning fluid really dries out the atomisers.'

Now I haven't personally tried this myself, but it seems at least he got some good results from it... I will test this theory out later and let you know how it goes.

 

[TribbleTrouble]

Also going to try balled-up fine stainless steel wire (0.15mm diam) as a cart filler,
and see if I can get as good results as TribbleTroublewith the balled up steel atomizer mesh

TribbleTrouble did you use all the mesh from an atomizer, or just some of it?

I used just enough to fit snug at the open end of my cart. I left the poly wool in the cart, and put the steel mesh at the very end on top of the wool. It is still working great, and it doesn't seem like I have filled the cart as often as I usually do on a regular day. I don't know if it will work for everyone, but it is certainly working for me.

 

[KoS]

Seeing the close up picks I am almost positive the mesh is tripple ott steele wool or stainless mabey. Could be finer than tripple ott but I doubt it. Going to the hardware store tomorrow and I will see if it is a match. Been ahwhile since I used it so I could be comletley off.

 

[Terraphon]

Gonna put an end to this "debate" and theorizing once and for all...stand by...

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Gonna put an end to this "debate" and theorizing once and for all...stand by...

Thanks Terraphon--Will look foward to what you find!!!---Sun

 

[KoS]

K here is what I was talking about:
Steel Wool

Here is another posibility. How fine do yo want it?
Micronic wire mesh data,prices, helpful information

 

[Terraphon]

I already know the answers because I've done the testing in the past. I just had to capture the results on film...Uploading now. Will post the results when done.

 

[Kate]

How can you know the answers, I don't even know what the question was?

 

[Terraphon]

ok, kids...here's the deal.

Juice DOES leave a residue...That residue is comprised of carbon and dissolved solids of various types (particles that are too heavy and heat resistant to become vaporized under flash-heating). Those particles WILL stick to an atomizer and to the mesh if they are heated enough.

Here's a video showing proof of this. I placed some liquid in my handy-dandy residue-o-matic and let fly with the heating...Check it out.

YouTube - Smoke juice residue test

Notice how the liquid goes in clean, vapes off and then leaves a brown spot? That's the same sh.t that ends up on your coil. Over time this will build up and, if your mesh gets hot enough, it can start to build up there, as well.

As for the stuffing...It's not melting to the mesh...trust me. If it was, you'd know it upon inspection.

I guess it's time for me to go and get a proper digital camera because I'm stuck using my cell camera which is a huge piece of crap and can't focus on anything less than 3 miles away so this pic looks crappy BUT...what you're looking at is a piece of factory stuffing. I sacrificed a brand new cart, dried out the wool, heated up a paperclip and touched it to the wool...It BARELY melted it and what DID melt turned in to black blobs of melted wick...What I'm saying, here, is that if the stuffing was melting, it would be obvious by simply looking at it...you'd SEE the melted bits.

See the black spot(s)? That's the melted part.

R.I.P. - Concerns...

 

[kinabaloo]

Thinking over this, I seem to remember when i have been doing my research on better fluid flow to the atomiser that the dreaded burning smell occurs as the juice is running out as opposed to after. I will check that later. If this is a correct observation, this suggests that the fluid is responsible for the bad smell by getting burnt - poorly burnt. Which is bad news indeed, because the products of poorly burnt glycerine include carbon monoxide and and acrolein (which is caustic and toxic). And, ultimately some carbon, which backs the idea that the deposit is carbon from the fluid. It is much more likely that the carbon is from glycerine than other components, although caramel (already partially burnt sugar) would play a part if it was in the fluid. Similar result perhaps with PG.

I am sure some will say the temperature ids not high enough to burn glycerol. Yes, to burn it cleanly requires a high temperature but for it to smoulder to some extent would be a lot lower - the temperature the coil would get when insuficient fluid is present (which keeps the coil cooler).

Note that I am not saying any of this is true, but i offer it as a possibility; and if it is the case, we have more worries than just atomiser life; it would require that the design of the vaporiser should be extended to cut-off if a dry / hot condition is detected. Really a pity in a way to get extra complexity, but the bad smell suggests something toxic and we (the manufacturers ultimately) need to address it. We need to capture the gasses in the bad smell and analyse to see what's in there.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

ok, kids...here's the deal.

Juice DOES leave a residue...That residue is comprised of carbon and dissolved solids of various types (particles that are too heavy and heat resistant to become vaporized under flash-heating). Those particles WILL stick to an atomizer and to the mesh if they are heated enough.

Here's a video showing proof of this. I placed some liquid in my handy-dandy residue-o-matic and let fly with the heating...Check it out.

YouTube - Smoke juice residue test

Notice how the liquid goes in clean, vapes off and then leaves a brown spot? That's the same sh.t that ends up on your coil. Over time this will build up and, if your mesh gets hot enough, it can start to build up there, as well.

As for the stuffing...It's not melting to the mesh...trust me. If it was, you'd know it upon inspection.

I guess it's time for me to go and get a proper digital camera because I'm stuck using my cell camera which is a huge piece of crap and can't focus on anything less than 3 miles away so this pic looks crappy BUT...what you're looking at is a piece of factory stuffing. I sacrificed a brand new cart, dried out the wool, heated up a paperclip and touched it to the wool...It BARELY melted it and what DID melt turned in to black blobs of melted wick...What I'm saying, here, is that if the stuffing was melting, it would be obvious by simply looking at it...you'd SEE the melted bits.

See the black spot(s)? That's the melted part.

R.I.P. - Concerns...

Terraphon--Thanks for the full clarification here--as it would make no sense that the cartridge poylester would only be on the coil when there is nothing on the Bridge that is above and over it---That is enough for me---Sun

 

[kinabaloo]

Terraphon - thanks for doing the test and the video.

The 'brown patch' left was a residue and not a discoloration of the vessel (common if the vessel is metal)? What juice did you use? What if you repeat the experiment with only a VG/water mix?

Just because the deposit is from the juice, doesn't mean we have nothing to worry about. And as i explained in a previous post, the worry is not so much about atomiser life as it is about what, if any, toxic gasses we are breathing when the deposits are gradually burned to carbon? The 'bad smell' tells us something is burning. It has a burning-plastic like smell but seems not be the wicking. I think it might be the VG/PG.

 

[Terraphon]

Yes, it's definitely residue because I can wipe it off...I've used that same vessel for several tests like this.

That was done with TW M/Boro but I've done it with most of the juices I have here including JC, E-smokey, Puresmoker and TW...same basic results across the board.

Yes, I would be more than willing to do this test with a U.S.P. VG / Water mix...It will have to wait until I can run to the store and get some distilled water, though. I won't use anything else for scientific purposes.

 

[kinabaloo]

Actually, it doesnt matter about VG/water test - it will not leave a deposit; the test situation will simply evaporate it. I think the VG can get burned by the heater coil when there is only a little liquid present - because it will reach a higher temperature. A dry atomiser, i predict, will not poduce the famous bad smell. it happens just as the fluid is almost run out.

Bu burned i mean something like how i can char a piece of paper by holding it near a flame - without it actually catching on fire.

Why doesn't the fluid just evaporate before it gets burned (charred)? Not sure, but somehow because the heat is so fast i guess and it is trapped in the coil wick - gets burned before it has a chance to evaporate. This suggest s solution - have a slower heat up. Not so slow that the user would notice - something like 0.25 seconds might be enough. It would also help the atomiser coil live longer. If such a small change helps avoid toxins and helps the atomiser live longer, it's well worth implementing.

Expansion stresses, especially if quick, are a life limiting factor for a heating coil; and so would be deposits, which raise internal operating temperature. I theorise that a slower heat up time could help in both these factors.

It might also be a good idea to make the coil core solid rather than a wick-like material. I think the wick here is not essential (but might be wrong).