Actually, I do think there's a chance that the VG may caramelize / carbonize...I'm very interested to do this, now.
wire wool?
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I just tried straight glycerin and couldn't get it to cook off...I couldn't even get it to BOIL...I burned my hand before it got hot enough to do anything.
SOOOO...I went ahead and cleaned it out and then put some TW Marb cut with glycerin in there.
Here's what I know.
Liquid cut with glycerin take a LOT more heat to cook off. I mean a LOT more heat...And it goes slow. It also leaves a LOT more carbon / residue than straight liquid.
I'll be happy to record the process if anyone wants proof but...It's safe to say that cutting with glycerin / using VG based liquids is going to foul an atomizer a LOT faster than will using straight PG liquid.
Be prepared to do a LOT more maintenance if you're using VG to cut and know that JC's VG based liquids are probably a bad scene for atomizers.
I just tried straight glycerin and couldn't get it to cook off...I couldn't even get it to BOIL...I burned my hand before it got hot enough to do anything.
SOOOO...I went ahead and cleaned it out and then put some TW Marb cut with glycerin in there.
Here's what I know.
Liquid cut with glycerin take a LOT more heat to cook off. I mean a LOT more heat...And it goes slow. It also leaves a LOT more carbon / residue than straight liquid.
I'll be happy to record the process if anyone wants proof but...It's safe to say that cutting with glycerin / using VG based liquids is going to foul an atomizer a LOT faster than will using straight PG liquid.
Be prepared to do a LOT more maintenance if you're using VG to cut and know that JC's VG based liquids are probably a bad scene for atomizers.
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"Liquid cut with glycerin take a LOT more heat to cook off. I mean a LOT more heat...And it goes slow. It also leaves a LOT more carbon / residue than straight liquid."
An interesting and unexpected result.
An interesting and unexpected result.
You can't replicate the flash heating that i fear might be leading to some toxic by products through burning. But the dry residue results are inteesting too.
Why would a cut with VG cause more deposits when VG itself leaves none?? Are you really sure about this Terraphon? It's a real head-scratcher (but then if i am over-lloking the obvious, it is 4:30 am here!)
Why would a cut with VG cause more deposits when VG itself leaves none?? Are you really sure about this Terraphon? It's a real head-scratcher (but then if i am over-lloking the obvious, it is 4:30 am here!)
One would expect fractional evaporation, alcohol, first then water ... But perhaps emulsions can behave wierd. Then there is glycerins affinity for water.
Hmm, on the face of it, we have not just a dry deposit - but also either a burning or reaction taking place under heating (forced evaporation).
Hmm, on the face of it, we have not just a dry deposit - but also either a burning or reaction taking place under heating (forced evaporation).
Terraphon--All I use is DYI with VG--this may explain my high atomizer failure rate--compare atomizers coming out to you with those you have and see if you notice a larger volume of buid up--I have only used PG a few times---Sun
I just did a bit of research online and, as I suspected, glycerin WILL caramelize when heated since it is a sugar.
Sooooooo...VG liquids are going to nuke atomizers faster than non VG unless they're cleaned very thoroughly and very regularly, I'm afraid. (Who wants to bet that's where the carbon deposits on a lot of these atomizers are coming from?)
Sooooooo...VG liquids are going to nuke atomizers faster than non VG unless they're cleaned very thoroughly and very regularly, I'm afraid. (Who wants to bet that's where the carbon deposits on a lot of these atomizers are coming from?)
hehehe...I was typing my last post out as you were posting, Sun (finalizing my searching whilst in a post window).
I think we have ourselves a culprit.
I think we have ourselves a culprit.
I just tried a similar test with VG / water / isopropanol / strawberry flavor.
I saw fractional evaporation. The VG last and as you said, it takes a lot of heat. One teaspoon, 3 drops, 2 minutes. No deposit.
I saw fractional evaporation. The VG last and as you said, it takes a lot of heat. One teaspoon, 3 drops, 2 minutes. No deposit.
History being made perhaps 
We coulld try to tabulate users atomiser lifetimes with their most oft used juice - PG or VG. But PG is chemically similar.
It's not the end of the world in terms of atomisers - luckily thay are not too expensive.
I'm just worried what else might be produced when the carbon is. BTW, in my test, no smell as well as no deposit (but that's a very slow heating in open air, not flash heating inside a fibreglass wick).
We coulld try to tabulate users atomiser lifetimes with their most oft used juice - PG or VG. But PG is chemically similar.
It's not the end of the world in terms of atomisers - luckily thay are not too expensive.
I'm just worried what else might be produced when the carbon is. BTW, in my test, no smell as well as no deposit (but that's a very slow heating in open air, not flash heating inside a fibreglass wick).
minty-menthol 24mg juice. Seems PG based as less vapor. Also reuired a lot of heat. Seemed to evoprate more calmly that the VG mix. Menthol more or less last to evoprate. Not sure about deposit - because this spoon too coffee stained. Nothing wipes off.
I did my test with 75% TW M/boro, 25% USP Glycerin.
I'm not sure why you would use isopropanol, though since it's a light-weight solvent. That could tend to break down any dissolved solids in the mixture. While I know that standard sugar isn't soluble in isopropanol, I'm curious as to the solubility/stability of glycerin in isopropanol, as well.
I'm also curious as to the solvent action on whatever deposits may have been left behind...I don't believe using isopropanol in this experiment was scientifically sound.
Facts, however, don't lie...
Fact : Glycerin is a sugar.
Fact : Sugars caramelize under heat.
Fact : When I cooked off the e-liquid / glycerin mixture, it left a LOT of residue. (Again, I'll happily repeat the experiment...I'll even go so far as to mix the solution on cam if my results are in question).
I think the results speak for themselves.
I'm not sure why you would use isopropanol, though since it's a light-weight solvent. That could tend to break down any dissolved solids in the mixture. While I know that standard sugar isn't soluble in isopropanol, I'm curious as to the solubility/stability of glycerin in isopropanol, as well.
I'm also curious as to the solvent action on whatever deposits may have been left behind...I don't believe using isopropanol in this experiment was scientifically sound.
Facts, however, don't lie...
Fact : Glycerin is a sugar.
Fact : Sugars caramelize under heat.
Fact : When I cooked off the e-liquid / glycerin mixture, it left a LOT of residue. (Again, I'll happily repeat the experiment...I'll even go so far as to mix the solution on cam if my results are in question).
I think the results speak for themselves.
I just wonder why there is more deposit when VG in the mix. Dont you think that strange ? It's like the VG holds onto something else causing it to burn when it would normally have already evaporated.
Not doubting you, just want to get the data straight before analysing it.
Re isopropanol - i just fully reporting what i did. It's in the strawberry flavouring. It can't make a dry deposit disappear anyway.
Not doubting you, just want to get the data straight before analysing it.
Re isopropanol - i just fully reporting what i did. It's in the strawberry flavouring. It can't make a dry deposit disappear anyway.
Perhaps the answer lies is VGs viscosity - after the alcohol and water have evaporated, what remains is very thick. Something else left in there can't easily evaporate and gets burned. That's my suggestion.
[a few minutes later] yes, i think this explains it. But not sure what is is in the nicotine juices that is getting burned.
Wouldn't it be absurd if it turned out to be nicotine! I know glycerine has an affinity for it; and it would explain why tropicalbob and some others report no nicotine hit from vaping. possible, i guess. It would also help explain why NRT doesnt work. The addiction is much more to the act ( and the smoke/vapor) than to the drug.
[a few minutes later] yes, i think this explains it. But not sure what is is in the nicotine juices that is getting burned.
Wouldn't it be absurd if it turned out to be nicotine! I know glycerine has an affinity for it; and it would explain why tropicalbob and some others report no nicotine hit from vaping. possible, i guess. It would also help explain why NRT doesnt work. The addiction is much more to the act ( and the smoke/vapor) than to the drug.
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Terraphon--I think you hit it right on the head--these atomizers were designed for PG--not VG and VG is almost as bad as using damn sugar or oil--the manufacturer designed them for PG---Sun
I don't think it's strange, no...If the sugars in the glycerin caramelize when heat is applied, the carbonizing process (caramelization) will, by necessity, create a residue...That's carbon.
The same thing will happen if you make a sugar solution and cook off the water. It will caramelize, then crystallize then turn to carbon deposits. We're seeing the exact same process.
Are you 100% sure that isopropanol won't break down carbon deposits? I think you'll find that since carbon is a non-polar molecule, it is EASILY soluble in isopropanol. I understand that the isopropanol cooks off first because of the low evaporation threshold but I'm not sure that it's not breaking down the carbon in the glycerin / sugars as it goes...this would, in all likelihood, serve to remove some (or all) of the depositable solids.
This could also explain why some people have had some luck with soaking in isopropanol.
The same thing will happen if you make a sugar solution and cook off the water. It will caramelize, then crystallize then turn to carbon deposits. We're seeing the exact same process.
Are you 100% sure that isopropanol won't break down carbon deposits? I think you'll find that since carbon is a non-polar molecule, it is EASILY soluble in isopropanol. I understand that the isopropanol cooks off first because of the low evaporation threshold but I'm not sure that it's not breaking down the carbon in the glycerin / sugars as it goes...this would, in all likelihood, serve to remove some (or all) of the depositable solids.
This could also explain why some people have had some luck with soaking in isopropanol.
just did another test. Mixed USP glycerine with isopropanol (appx 1:1). The isopropanol evaporated readily, leaving a sputtering boil of glycerine (which tells me that it modified it) which then broke down and left no residue.
Problem is, none of the juices *I* have experience with contain isopropanol and mixing that in to liquids would be, I assume, dangerous.
EDIT : Also, cooling the vaporizing vessel with pressurized diflouroethane made some interesting noises...just FYI.
Problem is, none of the juices *I* have experience with contain isopropanol and mixing that in to liquids would be, I assume, dangerous.
EDIT : Also, cooling the vaporizing vessel with pressurized diflouroethane made some interesting noises...just FYI.
I use pg / vg -- 50 / 50
to dilute my liquid.
I clean my attomizers by soaking o'nite in isopropanol,
then boiling -4 minutes -
then add mint essence and let soak in boiled water -to clear any residual taste.
I have had very good results.
Di .......
to dilute my liquid.
I clean my attomizers by soaking o'nite in isopropanol,
then boiling -4 minutes -
then add mint essence and let soak in boiled water -to clear any residual taste.
I have had very good results.
Di .......
Terraphon--Are we talking isopropanol alcohol as in rubbing alcohol and if so how would you use that to clean or would you as you can not digest that so I would think you would not want to vape it?--Thanks---Sun
I fully believe that the reason this works is because the isopropanol is dissolving the carbon. I'm assuming you do this on a regular basis which means that deposits won't have enough time to build up to the point that the isopropanol can't fully break it down before losing efficacy.
This also leads me to believe that ultrasonic cleaners will be a MAJOR help if used to blast atomizers every few days or so. Just drop them in overnight and let the cleaner blast off the small bit of carbon that will be there. I have supreme confidence in this as a regular maintenance process.
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