wire wool?

[Terraphon]

Terraphon--Are we talking isopropanol alcohol as in rubbing alcohol and if so how would you use that to clean or would you as you can not digest that so I would think you would not want to vape it?--Thanks---Sun

Yessir...isopropanol is AKA isopropyl alcohol.

I would not, personally, feel comfortable vaporizing and inhaling it but it does evaporate VERY quickly so I don't think it would be an issue.

I think I would tend to let an atomizer sit for several hours after an iso bath, though.

 

[kinabaloo]

Terraphon - You said VG leaves no deposit and i verified that. But you also said that the deposit left by a nicotine juice was greater after diluting with VG. THAT is what is interesting. This suggests that it is NOT VG that is being caramelised (though a reasonable thought, I have often thought that too), but something else in the nicotine juice that gets trapped in the thick viscous VG, cant all evaporate and gets burned.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Yessir...isopropanol is AKA isopropyl alcohol.

I would not, personally, feel comfortable vaporizing and inhaling it but it does evaporate VERY quickly so I don't think it would be an issue.

I think I would tend to let an atomizer sit for several hours after an iso bath.

Terraphon--might be good to break these atomizers down again that are coming as you can actually see what is going on like last time --and hopefully find some answers so you do not have to guess as to what, if anything will break up the residual of VG---Sun

 

[Terraphon]

Terraphon - You said VG leaves no deposit and i verified that. But you also said that the deposit left by a nicotine juice was greater after diluting with VG. THAT is what is interesting. This suggests that it is NOT VG that is being caramelised (though a reasonable thought, I have often thought that too), but something else in the nicotine juice that gets trapped in the thick viscous VG, cant all evaporate and gets burned.

nono...I said VG leaves no deposit when it's mixed with isopropanol.

I couldn't get it to cook off by itself. I'm going to have to try another method that doesn't involve me having my hand right there with my flesh boiling off.

 

[Terraphon]

Terraphon--might be good to break these atomizers down again that are coming as you can actually see what is going on like last time --and hopefully find some answers so you do not have to guess as to what, if anything will break up the residual of VG---Sun

Well, we know that the carbon is soluble in cola (phosphoric acid, not carbonic...that was an over-sight on my part). Also, as odd as it may sound I still have the little chunks of carbon that broke off the atomizer I destroyed.

I think I'll drop them in some alcohol and see what happens

 

[kinabaloo]

Terraphon - I tried just VG / water - no deposit. That's why SO strange that MORE deposit from juice when VG is in the mix. Although VG is chemically similar(ish) to PG it is far more viscous.

ps : even if alcohol could dissolve carbon, which it cannot - it would be left behind when it evaporated. Alcohol has nothing to do with what is going on here.

pps : although i dont think the deposits are caramelised VG (not sure, but doubt; though VG is responsible for something else that is in the nicotine mixes getting burned, and probably PG too though perhaps to a lesser extent), i do think that the 'bad smell' in atomiser conditions is the VG / PG breaking down (burning) - because i get this with the plain VG and water mix i use while testing other things. As i said before, i don't think the smell is from a part of the atomiser because it occurs only when there is insufficient juice, not when there is none. It is widely known that glycerine produces some nasty toxins when not burned cleanly. There is some badish smell with no fluid, kind of metalic taste. But the really foul smell is just as the juice runs out.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Well, we know that the carbon is soluble in cola (phosphoric acid, not carbonic...that was an over-sight on my part). Also, as odd as it may sound I still have the little chunks of carbon that broke off the atomizer I destroyed.

I think I'll drop them in some alcohol and see what happens

Terraphon--what is the theory of the alcohol--does it break down carbon?--Sun

 

[Terraphon]

I'm doing more research, now. It looks like PG and VG are miscible...if this is the case it makes very good sense that there would be more of a deposit with PG as opposed to isopropanol because the iso is a solvent to the VG whereas PG appears miscible...effectively suspending the VG and freeing it to break down more fully.

More reading...

 

[Terraphon]

Terraphon--what is the theory of the alcohol--does it break down carbon?--Sun

We know that isopropanol acts as a solvent on nonpolar molecules. We also know that carbon is nonpolar.

I think we can very safely assume that it will, to a point. There will be a point at which the solvent is overwhelmed and unable to dissolve a compound.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

We know that isopropanol acts as a solvent on nonpolar molecules. We also know that carbon is nonpolar.

I think we can very safely assume that it will, to a point. There will be a point at which the solvent is overwhelmed and unable to dissolve a compound.

Terraphon--will a kick with the cola, then a jam with the alcohol do anything--just thinking here?---Sun

 

[Terraphon]

That's a good question...I'm tempted to say "no" but...If the carbon is broken down to the point that the isopropanol isn't overwhelmed, that very well may work.

 

[kinabaloo]

Carbon is very inert. You cant dissolve it or hardly react with it. Might be possible to break it off, but likely not effective as chance of damaging the wire. The focus should be on where it comes from and what else is produced during the reactions/breakdowns that we are inhaling.

 

[Terraphon]

Carbon is very inert. You cant dissolve it or hardly react with it. Might be possible to break it off, but likely not effective as chance of damaging the wire. The focus should be on where it comes from and what else is produced during the reactions/breakdowns that we are inhaling.

uuhm.

Well.

We have had great success removing it from atomizers with cola soaks...Many posters have reported that atomizers which were useless are restored to 100% after a good RC bath.

The phosphoric acid / carbonic acid combination makes one hell of a carbon remover.

We also know that isopropanol is solvent to carbon as a nonpolar.

We KNOW where it comes from, in my opinion. I think I've demonstrated that e-liquids form carbon deposits when they are vaporized. Those deposits seem to be worsened by VG.

So...I don't think the issue, anymore, is why. I think the issue is how to control the issue.

Also, as far as what is produced during the vaporization process, this has been tested. I don't know where the link is but it's been done and, so far, there's been no reports of anything known to be harmful.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

uuhm.

Well.

We have had great success removing it from atomizers with cola soaks...Many posters have reported that atomizers which were useless are restored to 100% after a good RC bath.

The phosphoric acid / carbonic acid combination makes one hell of a carbon remover.

We also know that isopropanol is solvent to carbon as a nonpolar.

We KNOW where it comes from, in my opinion. I think I've demonstrated that e-liquids form carbon deposits when they are vaporized. Those deposits seem to be worsened by VG.

So...I don't think the issue, anymore, is why. I think the issue is how to control the issue.

Also, as far as what is produced during the vaporization process, this has been tested. I don't know where the link is but it's been done and, so far, there's been no reports of anything known to be harmful.

Terropon--the issue is narrowed down now to one of control--here are the latest results again from Ruyan (double click on image to enlarge)--Sun


Results For Propylene Glycol
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120052241578.jpg
Results For Chemical Reaction When Cartridge is Atomized
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120052835906.jpg
Results For Zero Nicotine Cartridge and Temperature
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120051915593.jpg
Results For Nicotine in Cartridges
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120052713875.jpg

 

[kinabaloo]

Terraphon - I agree it is from the liquid; i mean what part of it, what might we be able to change.

Re possible harm - i agree that under normal circumstances vaping produces no toxins. I mean when the fluid begins to run dry and we get that bad smell. I think that is the time the deposits are created, and that time might also be creating some toxins.

 

[Sun Vaporer]

Terraphon - I agree it is from the liquid; i mean what part of it, what might we be able to change.

Re possible harm - i agree that under normal circumstances vaping produces no toxins. I mean when the fluid begins to run dry and we get that bad smell. I think that is the time the deposits are created, and that time might also be creating some toxins.

Kin--if we can find away to clear the residue--any issue of toxins becomes mute--stick with trying to get rid of it---only makes sense?-Sun

 

[kinabaloo]

SunVaporer - No i dont agree it is just a matter of control. To get carbon there must be other products. We need to know what, from where, when and why. This is not just about atomiser life, it is about our lives too. We all know that acrid smell. We know now pretty much that this is not from the plastics in the atomiser but from the liquid. This doesn't mean it is no longer a concern. Glycerine when burned can produce toxins as bad as plastics. If this is the case we must address it. At least we need to ascertain if this is the case.

ps : sunvaporer - the deposits are not toxic, but there might be toxic gasses produced at the same time as the carbon is produced - the rest of the molecules, after losing some carbon atoms, are going somewhere ...

 

[Sun Vaporer]

SunVaporer - No i dont agree it is just a matter of control. To get carbon there must be other products. We need to know what, from where, when and why. This is not just about atomiser life, it is about our lives too. We all know that acrid smell. We know now pretty much that this is not from the plastics in the atomiser but from the liquid. This doesn't mean it is no longer a concern. Glycerine when burned can produce toxins as bad as plastics. If this is the case we must address it. At least we need to ascertain if this is the case.

We where only headed down the save all for the atomizers--take a look at the atomizer combustion analysis done by Ruyan--I do not think there is an issue there--the bad taste we get is rectified if we can control the residual build up--heavy duty studies like this one need to be done and that is out of our league. ---Sun

See--

Results For Chemical Reaction When Cartridge is Atomized
http://www.ruyan.com.cn/UploadFile/20081120052835906.jpg

 

[Terraphon]

We haven't yet ascertained the most likely source of the carbon?

I thought we had figured out that the rapid decomposition of the constituents found in the liquids creates carbon (the video I did) and that the process seems to be exacerbated by the addition of vegetable glycerin.

Also...after making a 1:1 mix of isopropanol and glycerin, when the glycerin finally decomposed it made the acrid smell I think you're talking about (I've never smelled it with my evo...probably because of the difference in atomizers but there was an easily discernible smell (and taste) when I fired up the atomizer sent to me by Sun, after re-vamping it.).

I have used that pen style atomizer several time but have never let it get close to running dry so that smell / taste hasn't returned. I'm fairly convinced that this smell / taste you're talking about IS due to the rapid decomposition of VG under [nearly] dry atomizer conditions and the accompanying chemical reactions (creation of carbon monoxide / carbon dioxide / propylene carbonate / etc...)

I think the best course to take is to back off the amounts of VG and see if the problems persist...as I said, I haven't experienced them but I haven't hit the thing that hard.

 

[kinabaloo]

Just to be clear, I am not myself worried about a bit of toxin. We live in a soup of toxins. Perhaps a few drags of bad smell is no worse than 1/2 an analog. But what if the regulators find this before we do something about it.

The deposits do not come from VG itself. So are you not interested in what part of nicotine juice it is coming from? Maybe something unnecessary, or maybe nicotine ! Something whose decomposition temperature is not far above its boiling point. We should try to pinpoint what that is.

This is all good cut and thrust; i appreciate you guys