WTA is the future

[Mr.Mann]

Do you know who is doing these extractions with these two vendors? What constitutes qualified? I think the qualifications is whether or not you know how to. I know how to add flavorings to a nic base (maybe not very well), but that also is part of the reason why I like the specialized vendors-- it's something greater than the larger scale equivalent of what I can do.

I know you were just voicing your opinion and that is cool. I am saying that a juice vendor is in a different arena than we are. That is why I asked you if you tried WTA or NETs--I wanted to bring the notion of you being a consumer into this as well. For instance, do you vape other vendors juices? I love talking to my favorite vendors about how good others are; one of my vendors absolutely loves BWB. I think that is awesome, because it lets me know that he is also a consumer, therefore, like me. Lastly, you said you decided not to do it (I am assuming WTA and NETs), does that mean you know how? I am just curious.

Thanks for answering my question about vaping the NETs and WTA, and for hangin' in there throughout this. Did you like the NET?

 

[JG1980]

I'm a little curious on the whole WTA thing. I don't feel like I need anything extra when I vape, I would just like to see if I feel any sense of relaxation or something.

 

[Mr.Mann]

I'm a little curious on the whole WTA thing. I don't feel like I need anything extra when I vape, I would just like to see if I feel any sense of relaxation or something.

I will put it to you like this: when I vape standard nic all day, I have reached heart rates of up to 10bpm+ my normal rate. My at rest heart rate is about 64-66bpm. I have tested this (obviously with some margin of error), but vaping WTA at the same nic levels my rate barely ticks up. I clocked it today at 67 (been vaping WTA 24mg all day), and yesterday while I solely vaped standard juice at 18mg it got up to 78bpm (and that was after an hour). I don't particularly like to feel speedy, and WTA is the antithesis to that! YMMV

It really is a no-brainer for me.

 

[kristin]

Regardless of whether or not e-cigarettes are associated with tobacco, if they contain nicotine, they are associated with addiction and recreational nicotine use. Unless you change public perceptions of nicotine use, you face the same prejudices, regulations and discrimination as tobacco (which ANTZ view as simply another addictive nicotine product.) Even if you eliminated 100% of the health risks, the ANTZ will still claim addiction is bad and that any kind of nicotine use will lead to smoking.

By trying to distance e-cigarettes from even low-risk, smoke-free tobacco products, we reinforce the belief that there is no safe tobacco use and therefore, no safe nicotine use and no place for recreational nicotine products. It also discredits the whole argument for tobacco harm reduction - e-cigarettes would only be allowed as a short-term treatment to wean smokers from nicotine addiction. Truthful science shows that nicotine, while addictive, carries the same health risks as caffeine use (as both are stimulants.) If recreational caffeine use is acceptable with its health risk, then recreational nicotine use should also be acceptable. If electronic cigarettes are acceptable as a low-risk nicotine source, then modern, low-risk smoke-free tobacco should also be acceptable. Studies of snus have proven that the greatest health risk is the low risk from nicotine. Therefore, if you argue against smoke-free tobacco products (including WTA liquids) as an acceptable nicotine source, then you are basically arguing against electronic cigarettes, as well.

We cannot support the ANTZ rhetoric and propaganda about low-risk tobacco products without supporting their same rhetoric and propaganda about electronic cigarettes.

 

[kristin]

I am not arguing against smoke free tobacco products.

You are arguing that it is bad to be associated with tobacco products in general. Same thing.

 

[rothenbj]

Boy this became a flash fire quickly. What's NET? I guess I'm getting dated again.

 

[Mr.Mann]

Boy this became a flash fire quickly. What's NET? I guess I'm getting dated again.

Wowzers! Flash fire? Yup!

NET=Naturally Extracted Tobacco

 

[radiokaos]

Wowzers! Flash fire? Yup!

NET=Naturally Extracted Tobacco

How do you define Naturally Extracted Tobacco...?

 

[PoliticallyIncorrect]

Wowzers! Flash fire? Yup!

ECF situation normal: You like/dislike WTAs, DCs, a PV not of my choosing? That can only mean you're stupid/foolish/misinformed. And I'm not.

 

[Mr.Mann]

How do you define Naturally Extracted Tobacco...?

Uhh...How would I define Naturally Extracted Tobacco? Uhh...as NET? haha. I don't really know how to define it, though I can discern it upon tasting...I guess it is a flavor component of the tobacco leaves that a tobacconist extracts to his/her liking? I don't know, Radio! Why are you asking tough questions? LOL

 

[rothenbj]

Thanks MM, I probably could have searched for it but, at this point, I really don't want to get involved with to much depth in an "new developments". I'm pretty happy with where I am today.

 

[jayvolt]

I have my 2cents to throw in to the mix, and you can take it or leave it.

WTA is to dangerous a substance that should not be administered in "human trials" until further research is done. PERIOD. There are chemical compounds in WTA juice that are fine in small quantities, but can also prove "not so safe" in larger quantities. Several compounds in the "other" alkaloids that are found in tobacco have anti depressant and anti anxiety qualities. Any drug (and the WTA's AND Nicotine are both drugs by Websters definition) that has ANY measurable effect on the human brain is not to be taken lightly. ESPECIALLY in such a light hearted way as I have seen in this thread. The very least that ANY of you could do is go through the original thread about WTA that was posted by DVAP and later helped along by KIN, and come to terms with the simple fact that:

A) We as a group have no IDEA what the ramifications of daily use of WTA is.
B) The TRUE extraction process for WTA is HIGHLY toxic, and MUST be overseen by a qualified Bio-Chemist.
C) WTA's Burn at differing rates, the extraction process theoretically extracts 100% of the WTA and Nico from the tobacco solids. This means thats the WTA to Nico mix is possibly WAYYYYYY off.


The FANBOY nature of this and everything else in Vaping tends to throw off logical thought only to replace it with invalid arguments and uneducated guesses. Every one here has a right to do whatever the flying marbles they want to. You smoked Ciggies for god only knows how long and you did it with reckless abandon ( so did I ). But this does NOT mean in any way that there are not OTHER things that are JUST AS BAD or potentially WORSE than that. Take it or leave it BUT until the day they run inhaled smoke through a Gas Chromatograph and equalize the mixture, I will just stick to the devil I know.

Remember too that there is a VERY small group of juice makers that use clean-rooms and an even smaller percentage that actually operate out of a food grade or chem grade lab. Do you really want to trust something with such dire potential to "Buck" in his kitchen?

Before all the fanboy's jump in and try to run spears through any of this, I could not possibly care less what any of you think. I think it's travesty enough that we don't have proper testing on what we consume, and even more so that "manufacturers" are not held to a MUCH HIGHER standard than they are now.

 

[rothenbj]

Okay Jayvolt, thanks for your opinion. Move along now, nothing to see here.

 

[jayvolt]

MMMMMHMMMM thats exactly what I am talking about. Thank you SO VERY MUCH for proving my point.

 

[rothenbj]

MMMMMHMMMM thats exactly what I am talking about. Thank you SO VERY MUCH for proving my point.

And mine. Opinions are like, well you know.

 

[kristin]

MMMMMHMMMM thats exactly what I am talking about. Thank you SO VERY MUCH for proving my point.

Honestly, I'm not trying to be snarky here, but I'm not sure what kind of response you expected after telling them that you "could not possibly care less what any of you think?"

 

[Mr.Mann]

I have my 2cents to throw in to the mix, and you can take it or leave it.
I could not possibly care less what any of you think.

MMMMMHMMMM thats exactly what I am talking about. Thank you SO VERY MUCH for proving my point.

I thought your point was that WTA has a dangerous extraction process and that we have no idea what we are doing. It also seems like you are vehemently against WTA based on the information in a thread that many of us have read...and that is fine. Are you trying to inform us? For a second (aside from the tone) I thought you were, but if your "point" that was proven was that we would disregard your post, then that is different. I am willing to hear you out, but it doesn't have to start like this.

 

[jayvolt]

My point is that I am tired of in fighting, and moreso that I am tired of this being a community that buries its head in the sand. How many juice vendors have just popped up with no regulation at all. While I can somewhat trust a person to mix a regulated amount of nicotine (and really I don't, I order from 2 of the companies that produce a Lab quality juice, and have a certified chemist on staff to oversee it) I cannot and will not trust a person to properly extract alkaloids from plant matter outside of a VERY controlled laboratory, with strict oversight by a certified and well trained bio-chemist.

Maceration is not WTA extraction. And if a product is being sold as extracted WTA, when in fact it is a maceration, then all of the buyers are being ripped off. If it IS in fact alkaloid extraction, it needs to be overseen. The extraction process uses caustic chemicals to remove the alkaloids from the plant material, and in turn the caustic chemicals MUST be properly removed to make it a safe mixture (relatively speaking). Then it must be tested for Nicotine content to properly mix down to safe usable levels. I have some of DVAPS WTA that was sent for testing. If I could I would take a sample of this and put it side by side with any other WTA on the market, in a gas chromatograph, but I sadly don't have an extra 12 or so grand to hire a lab.

My comment about not caring what people think is moreso aimed at people in this thread, and others, that simply will not listen to reason. I see it in APV's, Juices, and other subjects as well. How many health threads have YOU read in the past where a persons legitimate concerns were shot right down cause there is NO WAY vaping could have caused it. How many GREAT chances have we had to expand knowledge about the medical properties of vaping? I am sorry it came out quite like that but I am p'ed off at the "don't question anything" and " regulation is terribad" state of mind that A LOT of people seem to have. That kind of thinking will only serve to slow true progress and safety.

I stand behind my opinion. WTA needs some REAL clinical testing to measure the effects on psychology and physiology before it's served up wholesale to the public. Information is a weapon against rhetoric and sensationalism. Food for thought. DVAP, when making a properly extracted WTA, said on multiple occasions that to do it right the price of the end product would be anywhere from 70-100 per 30ml at 20'ish mg. Ask yourself how you are getting this pure WTA for the low prices they are being offered for?

 

[radiokaos]

My point is that I am tired of in fighting, and moreso that I am tired of this being a community that buries its head in the sand. How many juice vendors have just popped up with no regulation at all. While I can somewhat trust a person to mix a regulated amount of nicotine (and really I don't, I order from 2 of the companies that produce a Lab quality juice, and have a certified chemist on staff to oversee it) I cannot and will not trust a person to properly extract alkaloids from plant matter outside of a VERY controlled laboratory, with strict oversight by a certified and well trained bio-chemist.

Maceration is not WTA extraction. And if a product is being sold as extracted WTA, when in fact it is a maceration, then all of the buyers are being ripped off. If it IS in fact alkaloid extraction, it needs to be overseen. The extraction process uses caustic chemicals to remove the alkaloids from the plant material, and in turn the caustic chemicals MUST be properly removed to make it a safe mixture (relatively speaking). Then it must be tested for Nicotine content to properly mix down to safe usable levels. I have some of DVAPS WTA that was sent for testing. If I could I would take a sample of this and put it side by side with any other WTA on the market, in a gas chromatograph, but I sadly don't have an extra 12 or so grand to hire a lab.

My comment about not caring what people think is moreso aimed at people in this thread, and others, that simply will not listen to reason. I see it in APV's, Juices, and other subjects as well. How many health threads have YOU read in the past where a persons legitimate concerns were shot right down cause there is NO WAY vaping could have caused it. How many GREAT chances have we had to expand knowledge about the medical properties of vaping? I am sorry it came out quite like that but I am p'ed off at the "don't question anything" and " regulation is terribad" state of mind that A LOT of people seem to have. That kind of thinking will only serve to slow true progress and safety.

I stand behind my opinion. WTA needs some REAL clinical testing to measure the effects on psychology and physiology before it's served up wholesale to the public. Information is a weapon against rhetoric and sensationalism. Food for thought. DVAP, when making a properly extracted WTA, said on multiple occasions that to do it right the price of the end product would be anywhere from 70-100 per 30ml at 20'ish mg. Ask yourself how you are getting this pure WTA for the low prices they are being offered for?

Do you think DVAP consulted for a certain company that might be making WTA?

Who is supplying pure WTA?

Due to TOS, I can't discuss too much here but you are welcome to come by my form to discuss your concerns.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[jayvolt]

PM me and I will talk in private. DEF don't want to cause any TOS issues for you. My concerns would not end with you, sadly. Whatever your extraction process and whoever YOUR tech/Chemist is, there are more out there that don't have that working for them. My concerns are with regulation. I would prefer self regulation or an elected body that remains neutral, to keep government mostly out of it, but something. I am sure that if you are doing proper extraction you understand my concerns. And I am hoping your name is a tribute to Waters man, that album (and all the rest of his solo stuff) is awesome.