FDA Zeller Actually Lets the Truth Slip Out - Let's Pay Attention

[zoiDman]

And why wouldn't BT want to upgrade?

...

Because they Have Revenue which comes from Other Sources. And People like njoy doesn't.

Also, Realistically, who many Exsmokers are going to buy an eGo that is Made by the Same People who Make Cigarettes?

BT can't shed the Image that for Decades they were Allowed by the FDA to put ALL KINDS of Chemicals into Cigarettes. And that was In a Regulated Market.

BT is playing this just as they Should. Stay Quite. Let things Unfold while they sit back and Patiently wait.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

NO! It's not a step up at all! The first clearos I ever had were those awful topcoil iClear16 kind, and they SUCK!

And 650 mAh? That's a joke! My iTaste vv3 is 800 mAh and THAT is too short! If it didn't have pass-thru, it really wouldn't be all that usable at all.

I've got some 18650s with 2250 mAh, and even that seems a bit insipid next to 2 stacked '350s!

Andria

Hey, don't be knocking the iClear16.. I picked up my 1st e-cig a year & a half ago, and to this day you'll still sometimes find an iClear16 atop my ProVari..

They're hard to beat at the overall level in terms of price, value, flavor, vapor, portability, maintenance, performance, longevity, quality control, etc..


NJOY's appears to be a CE4, which isn't as good in various ways compared to an iClear..

But compared to a cigalike? Most definitely a step up.. Have ever vaped from a refilled blu cartridge?

And you might laugh at a 650 mAh.. But what is blu at, 200-250?

Again, definitely a step up from a cigalike...

 

[DC2]

May 13, 2014

NJOY Retools E-Cig Line, Adds Vaping

SCOTTSDALE, Ariz. -- Electronic cigarette maker NJOY has announced that it is refreshing and expanding its product line by introducing a rechargeable line of e-cigarettes and a "high-vapor" product or vapor-tank-mod (VTM), according to Bonnie Herzog, managing director of beverage, tobacco and convenience store research for Wells Fargo Securities LLC, New York.

NJOY also plans to introduce a new-and-improved disposable NJOY King.

The Scottsdale, Ariz.-based company expects to roll out its new lineup to between 35,000 and 40,000 retail outlets in July and August.

NJOY Retools E-Cig Line, Adds Vaping | CSPnet

To me, this is HUGE news, and it kind of changes my outlook on things.

 

[tombaker]

Ok, apologies, I'm coming rather late to this thread, and haven't yet had the opportunity to read through the replies.

On this specific quotation, notice the emphasis - "completely switch". It's important to note the language, because there is a strong Tobacco Control current of argument which says:

1. Dual use (i.e. cutting down) is not desirable, since it represents the perpetuation of smoking behavior (which otherwise would have disappeared?).

2. E-Cigarettes are only any good for dual use.

The MAJOR problem the US faces is that there is no credible population-level study which shows what is actually going on with smokers transitioning to vaping.

In the UK the Smoking Toolkit and a nationwide survey by ASH UK are demonstrating beyond argument that gateway concerns are not a concern; that a huge number of smokers have migrated fully to vaping; and that smoking prevalence is being reduced in all socio-economic groups. Similar data is coming out of France.

The CDC cannot be trusted to collect this data - so who might be? I believe that the best course of action is to try to persuade one or other of the alphabet soup to fund Robert West to run a US version of the Toolkit. It's not expensive - the UK version is funded by Cancer Research UK and costs about £125k ($170k approx) per year (it rolls out continuously to pick up trends quickly).

The data in the "Smoking Toolkit" is very interesting, actually excellent. http://www.ncsct.co.uk/usr/pub/e-cigarette_briefing.pdf What I am unclear on is, why it is thought that it has to be replicated in the USA? If the science is good in the UK, and it should be, this data can be used as it stands within the USA as a proper citation to the FDA.

Plenty of science is done throughout the world, and regularly accepted by the FDA. Its the essential part of the peer reviewed system.

That report as it stands, could easily be part of a submission to the FDA, by numerous companies, without any need to replicate it, or having the associated costs of doing it over again, with people in the USA.

Similarly if the Speculation that a single application takes a gigantic amount of time, it does not then follow that subsequent applications would take nearly the same amount of time, as the change from one similar item to the next is trivial. Whilst also ignoring multiple items per unique application availability.

Long story short.....this is a great study/survey, that can be used as is, without redoing it, or paying for it again.

Specifically the above PDF should be submitted to the FDA as part of the comment period, in answering their specific question from the Deeming. That is "We also welcome any health and behavioral data about the effects of using e-cigarettes."

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Because they Have Revenue which comes from Other Sources. And People like NJoy doesn't.

Also, Realistically, who many Exsmokers are going to Buy an eGo that is Made by the Same People who Make Cigarettes?

BT can't shed the Image that for Decades they were Allowed by the FDA to put ALL KINDS of Chemicals into Cigarettes. And that was In a Regulated Market.

BT is playing this just as they Should. Stay Quite. Let things Unfold while they sit back and Patiently wait.

Patiently await? For what? Some of these guys to swipe the non-cigalike market away from them..?

List of private equity firms - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The vaping market is apparently around $2 billion in revenue, as of 2013 year-end.. Slap a 3x-sales multiple on that, and any one of those top 50 PE firms above could, alone, swallow up the entire market -- and some at the top several times over...


BT sitting on their hands would be suicide..

The FDA will certainly help them in all this -- but they won't save them...


Honestly, the Big 3 of BT might decide someday to give up the hardware manufacturing side & write off their losses, and instead capture the liquid nic market, as many before me have mentioned.. Might make a lot more corporate sense for them..

With all that raw tobacco material already passing through their hands, switching over to huge nic extraction operations isn't much of a stretch -- and let the others duke it out in the vape gear biz...

 

[zoiDman]

Your position is Based on the Concept that the FDA is Going to Approve Better e-Cigarettes than the Cig-A-Likes that BT Currently has. And I just don't see that Happening in the Near Future.

I could be Wrong on this. I have been Told that I was Wrong when I called BP's Nafarious Plot to Flim-Flam the e-cigarette Market away from BT (with the help of the FDA) Crazy. No Reason I Can't Be Wrong on the FDA Limiting the e-Cigarette Market to Cig-A-Likes.

And Maybe the FDA is going to Approve an 30W 18650 VV/VW 510 Threaded Tube Mod right quick.

But my gut Tells me, No. That is just Wishful Thinking.

 

[Bobbilly]

I bet you BT is working on the paperwork for new products right niw

 

[zoiDman]

Brief Intermission:

If you want to see Someone who Did more than Just Talk About Things, and Actualy Took Matters into his Own Hands to Do Something, Check out this Thread...

http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...really-easy-people-do-something-positive.html

Maybe People could Pop in to Say "Good Job". Or even Get Active and do Something Similar?

End of Brief Intermission:

 

[sonicdsl]

BTW< Looks like Mistic is getting in on the trend as well (non cigalikes):

Haus™ Personal Vaporizer Now at Walmart Stores in Oklahoma | Business Wire

 

[zoiDman]

BTW< Looks like Mistic is getting in on the trend as well (non cigalikes):

Haus™ Personal Vaporizer Now at Walmart Stores in Oklahoma | Business Wire

I Don't Know Why somebody Wouldn't want to sell eGo Clones in Walmart? Or Any of the Other Places a "Mystic" is being Sold. I'd be doing it Until Somebody Told me I Couldn't.

Look at the Bottom of their Web Site http://www.misticecigs.com/#

In Fact, I'm Kinda Surprised that I Can't Walk in Walmart or Walgreens and Buy a Lavatube or a Vamo?

 

[AndriaD]

Hey, don't be knocking the iClear16.. I picked up my 1st e-cig a year & a half ago, and to this day you'll still sometimes find an iClear16 atop my ProVari..

They're hard to beat at the overall level in terms of price, value, flavor, vapor, portability, maintenance, performance, longevity, quality control, etc..


NJOY's appears to be a CE4, which isn't as good in various ways compared to an iClear..

But compared to a cigalike? Most definitely a step up.. Have ever vaped from a refilled blu cartridge?

And you might laugh at a 650 mAh.. But what is blu at, 200-250?

Again, definitely a step up from a cigalike...

I can't stand top-coils, much too hot. And aren't the iClear16s dual? I don't like those either -- too hot! I gave mine another try a couple weeks ago, now that I know you have to let them sit and soak for like 15 mins, and I still don't like them for my "regular" vape, all that heat just ruins it. I can kinda-sorta tolerate it if I vape something in it *other* than my regular Virginia, and also since I got a drip-tip converter, to let me use my own driptips, which puts a little distance between my mouth and those hot top coils, but to me they're just junk; a cheapie BCC *single-coil* is much better, any day of the week -- now that I've learned to rebuild coils and use organic cotton, I can get a vape from my $6 T3S tanks that's nearly as good as from my kayfun, if not nearly as intense.

As for the Blu's... I took one hit off the only one I've ever bought, and almost gagged, at that awful sweet pipe tobacco taste. Frankly don't see how anyone can stand that, who wasn't a pipe smoker -- to them it would probably taste fine. That horrible taste is what sent me to the internet to look for some alternative I could actually stand.

I'm glad I've got a good selection of hardware already, and that I'll have 2 yrs to stockpile more and some nic base for freezing, because I am never going back to smoking, and never going back to cigalikes either. I like my vv3's and my Sigelei, like my T3S's and Protanks, and positively love my Kayfun, and I'm not about to suffer something lesser just because the FDA has its head up its rear end.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

Honestly, the Big 3 of BT might decide someday to give up the hardware manufacturing side & write off their losses, and instead capture the liquid nic market, as many before me have mentioned.. Might make a lot more corporate sense for them..

With all that raw tobacco material already passing through their hands, switching over to huge nic extraction operations isn't much of a stretch -- and let the others duke it out in the vape gear biz...

I have been wondering why this hasn't occurred to them; they already own the trademarks for their name brands, so I can't see why they don't. They could offer their cancer sticks, OR, the same flavors in e-liquid. What's so hard about that? Sure, their e-liquid would probably cost more by an order of magnitude, but folks looking for a *specific flavor* (as I was) would be thrilled to pay whatever, to keep a familiar taste. Of course, they probably wouldn't be able to restrain themselves from adding carcinogens and MAOIs to *their* e-liquid, just to make sure they were on par with their cancer sticks!

Andria

 

[Alexander Mundy]

What caught my ear when I was watching it live was the "all" and "completely" which is an impossibility. I think he had that figured out as a pat answer before the meeting to stop a line of questioning and pacify the questioner.

In an effort to understand the issue from the FDA's standpoint I ran across these FDA reports to Congress. I encourage those that have not read these to do so in their entirety. They certainly enlightened me to why Mr Zeller replied in certain ways to questions including the "all" and "completely" in the statement he made ("If we could get all of those people [who can't or wont quit smoking conventional cigarettes] to completely switch all of their cigarettes to the non-combustible products that would be good for public health.") that originally started this thread and to what standards product applications would be held to.

As a side note it is interesting that it is mentioned that BP requested changing (and has subsequently been allowed to do so) the labeling on their OTC NRT's for continued use and dual use because e-cigarettes were encroaching on their market.

"Participants in the December 17 hearing also argued that OTC NRTs are currently perceived by tobacco users as less appealing than other, more novel nicotine-containing products (such as electronic cigarettes), in part because of the NRTs’ specific directions for use and other statements set forth in the labeling."

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/TobaccoProducts/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM371271.pdf

http://www.fda.gov/downloads/Drugs/GuidanceComplianceRegulatoryInformation/UCM348930.pdf

 

[Bobbilly]

This was in a UK report regarding the dual use argument. "It has been suggested that there is a risk of sustained dual use among smokers who might otherwise have quit smoking completely, representing missed opportunities to achieve complete cessation. This concern clearly applies equally to NRT, which is licensed for what is in effect dual use and recommended on the grounds that dual use is likely to increase quit attempts. The concern is therefore inconsistent; if dual use is good as a pathway to quitting, that surely applies to dual use involving either NRT or electronic cigarettes."

 

[Fast and Furious]

GNC "THE COMPANY" has a boat load - a BIG boat load of "Health Care Supplements" that have not been "evaluated or approved by the FDA" - so why all the focus on e-cigarettes? Our e-liquids CAN be purchased WITHOUT "nicotine" (admittedly it may not be for the typical user), yet neither the FDA nor ANY of the mass media ever seems to mention "zero nicotine" e-liquids.

Any regulation is driven by financial profit for large corporations ' (special interest groups) and I believe it is these very special interest groups who desire to see e-cigarettes regulated in the not too distant future. These groups can well afford to submit their limited e-cigarettes offerings for approval and it is these groups who stand to benefit financially by any and all regulation.

Repeatedly governmental agencies and the mass media refer to the e-cigarettes of 2007 - the Chinese made brands that failed the ONE test the experts love to cite because ONE contained a fractional amount of a potentially harmful chemical. They do not call for specific new testing and are content to expedite this matter using outdated data as proof-positive they are exhibiting proof the health and safety of the people is of paramount importance.

The FDA DOES serve a good purpose, however, in this case I believe they are being pressured from someone far higher in the political command chain and passing new regulation will be impossible to stop; that alone is sad at best. The FDA is being use as a powerful pawn to further the financial gain of giant long established corporations seeking to increase their share of the e-cigarette market.

Taxation will no doubt be a benefit of any regulation, however, I do not believe that taxation is driving regulation at this time. There is far more to this sudden rush towards regulation than we might suspect and I truly believe it comes in the form of potential contributions to political campaigns of specific individuals who aspire to gain more political power so they may further personal goals with questional purpose.

Call me a Right Wing radical. Call me a Right Wing Nut Job. Call me a Right Wing anything you want, but there is far more to this potential regulation than the health of e-cigarette users.

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Tom

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

BTW< Looks like Mistic is getting in on the trend as well (non cigalikes):

Haus™ Personal Vaporizer Now at Walmart Stores in Oklahoma | Business Wire

So they're selling their e-liquid separately - instead of in a sealed cartridge?

Fascinating. Although this quite obviously gives them the chance to offer a better price point to the customer, I have to wonder whether this will be feasible under the Tobacco Act. My guess is that separate health studies would be required for the liquid, and those might be a tad tricky to do.

My own sense is that any part of the "convered tobacco product" which is sold separately will have to have its own health study. That in turn may drive the manufacturers to produce equipment which is incompatible with that of other manufacturers. So any separate battery connections will vary, and the cartridges full of e-liquid will have to be sealed and tamperproof.

Imagine trying to get a tobacco cigarette approved, if the filter could be taken off and put on another cigarette. This is precisely the situation w/ cigarette papers, RYO tobacco, and cigarette tubes (the ones designed for use with injector machines). But I suspect all of those are either grandparented, or just ignored by the FDA.

Incidently the manufacturers' and retailers' margins on sealed cartridges are probably going to be greater. Generally, the more something costs per unit, the more retailers (at least) make by selling it, because the margin is generally a percentage. And if customers don't have the choice of substituting with another product that has a cheaper pricepoint due to a different architecture, then they're stuck. For example, a manufacturer who sells separate bottled e-liquid probably has an inherent advantage over one who only offers sealed cartridges. But if all of them only offer cartridges, then the customer is out of luck.

 

[aikanae1]

Sweet. Me thinks there's been some behind the lines calculations confirming it's gonna take a L-O-N-G time to get these regulations finalized. Meanwhile, might as well make some money with new products. Business as usual.

 

[zoiDman]

Sweet. Me thinks there's been some behind the lines calculations confirming it's gonna take a L-O-N-G time to get these regulations finalized. Meanwhile, might as well make some money with new products. Business as usual.

I Wouldn't set my Time Line for Getting Prepared for Regulations based on the Past.

Not say'n that the Government is a Well Oiled Machine. It Isn't. Or that they do Everything in a Timely Manor. They Don't.

Just that it is Better to have a Frig Full of Nicotine Base and a Box Full of Hardware Now verses Later.

 

[Gato del Jugo]

Sweet. Me thinks there's been some behind the lines calculations confirming it's gonna take a L-O-N-G time to get these regulations finalized. Meanwhile, might as well make some money with new products. Business as usual.

I look at it as a race to get as much new better product out there as possible before the regs come into effect, which would replace a company's older outdated stuff which would be subsequently shuttered, considering there doesn't appear to be much hope for any SE throughout the industry..

Less expensive & puts them in a better competitive position that way...


Maybe I'm just being too optimistic...

 

[DC2]

The FDA DOES serve a good purpose, however, in this case I believe they are being pressured from someone far higher in the political command chain and passing new regulation will be impossible to stop; that alone is sad at best. The FDA is being use as a powerful pawn to further the financial gain of giant long established corporations seeking to increase their share of the e-cigarette market.

No need to speculate, as we are well aware of who is involved in all of this...
--Big Pharma hates electronic cigarettes and wants them to go away
--The "non-profit" health organizations hate electronic cigarettes and want them to go away
--Big Tobacco has jumped onboard now that they are not going away, but wants the market handed over to them
--The government wants electronic cigarettes to go away

All of this is well documented, and if you would like any more information on what actions any of the above groups have taken, just let me know.

There is far more to this sudden rush towards regulation than we might suspect and I truly believe it comes in the form of potential contributions to political campaigns of specific individuals who aspire to gain more political power so they may further personal goals with questional purpose.

There is no sudden rush towards regulation here.
These rules have been in the works for many years and many groups have been pressuring the FDA to hurry up.

You're on the right track though, just need some of the history and details filled in.