Class at Hospital - "Lithium battery in ecigarettes release carcinogenics." Help me respond to this?

[The Ocelot]

I agree with the prior posters about requesting documentation so you can appropriately respond. I used to investigate industrial accidents and the MSDS for Li-ion I found from Panasonic is pretty lightweight. You probably noticed in your own searching that the major interest in the safety of Li-ion batteries is in regards to fires and the use in electronic vehicles.

http://www.panasonic.com/industrial/includes/pdf/panasonic_liion_info.pdf

 

[Racehorse]

She needs to cite a reference. If what she says is accurate, there is a source. If there is no source, then what she's saying isn't accurate.

Its in the MDS.

Li-Ion cells contain no toxic cadmium, but they still contain either cobalt oxides or nickel oxides, which are known human carcinogens and should be recycled.

I guess I'm more worried that people are tossing so many Li-on batteries out. These should go to the proper facilities. Hopefully, as vapers, we take the responsibile path.

What I'm finding on the Internet is that some batteries CONTAIN carcinogens.

In this MSDS report, it tells doctors and nurses what to do IF a patient comes after being exposed to a VENTED battery. Also how such a spill or leak from a battery should be cleaned up.

No different than when people are repeatedly exposed to a breaking or exploding flourescent light,ly as found in office buildings and stores. they found a lot of people that work with them got some kind of SARCOIDOSIS or something, I forgot the disesase.

 

[mkbilbo]

yes, I apologize I probably could have been more specific in my rant that the batteries themselves are not the ones producing the heat. The point I was conveying (at least in my head) was the laptops act like an oven and all of that heat is right next to the batteries in turn causing them to be at a higher temperature than our ecig batteries get (except in an unvented mod). Yes, I overclock my gpu's and cpu's and I liquid cool my build.

Ha, maybe I will turn one of my old home servers into a liquid cooled mod. Then there is no way of overheating the battery.

EDIT: Though I guess monkeys coworkers will say I am still giving off carcinogens...

Shoot, if you overclock, you know hardware way better than I do. I've always been more on the software side. I was always more likely to be tweaking and recompiling my kernel (well, at least in my Linux days, I'm beating my head against iOS lately ).

But you're right (and I misread you). Packed in as laptop components are these days, hot as they run, the batteries are getting toasty. I know they shield the batteries but there's only so much you can pack in a modern laptop the things have gotten so thin. Though this part surprised me:

...they didn't vent until 470-500 F.

I knew they could stand far more heat than a human being can but that's even higher than I thought. Basically, then, a PV/e-cig would reach a temp too high for anybody to even hold on to before the battery could vent much of anything. And that makes the sporadic claims that an e-cig "exploded" in someone's face very, very suspicious.

The only stories I know of that seem remotely plausible involve a battery being charged or an accidental dead short of a battery for a mod (that is, removable batteries, not sealed in). There we're talking common battery risks. Defective charging units or defective batteries under charge often lead to fires. I'm actually much more nervous about jump starting a car than charging my Twists. Lead acid is just nasty stuff. Li-Ions seem way tame in comparison.

(Li-Po, dunno. Read about the charging profiles of those and my reaction was mostly, "derhuhwah?" Those are odd critters.)

Though I guess monkeys coworkers will say I am still giving off carcinogens...

Personally, I give off methane.

Is that a carcinogen?

 

[fabricator4]

One more note on the common sense of it all - Li-ion batteries have been used in high end flashlights and tactical flashlights for years. Like, dozens of years. Do Surefire lights come with a cancer warning? Of course not. It's nonsense.

Also, many of these torches are designed to be water proof - they do not have any venting themselves. If gassing was any kind of issue in normal use then one way waterproof relief valves would be a requirement.

Faulty batteries venting in a torch is a different safety issue, and one that generally does not apply to our PVs because PVs are not sealed units. The problem with a sealed torch is that usually the cap, buttons, or the head will blow off with explosive force. The torches where this has occurred appear to to have multiple cells in series where one of the cells has become faulty. Most PVs use a single cell, not multiples in series which further increases the safety factor by many orders of magnitude.

Example of series battery failure in a torch (for the curious, should not apply to single cell PVs) Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded This was a three cell torch. Two cells were charged overnight, the third cell was charged next day. The batteries were then inserted in the torch and it exploded immediately.

 

[tearose50]

I am hoping that the references ECFers have been giving you are helpful in this situation.

To me, the data you were given in your class just doesn't add up. Someone appears to have taken 2 datums (& not necessarily true datums) and mixed them up to create a myth. Of course speculation is useless.

Here's to you finding the source of this confusion and I look forward to a follow-up........ I'm sure many of us would like to know the how your meeting goes, etc.

I have appreciated this thread and hope many learn from it and the references posted.

And, if new arrivals to this thread are just reading the end, do yourself a favor and read the entire thread. IMHO it contains a lot of valuable info all in on place.

 

[The Ocelot]

Vehicles get hotter than e-cigs don't they? One would think the EPA would be concerned:

Study Identifies Environmental and Health Impacts of Lithium-ion Batteries for EVs - Green Fleet Magazine

 

[The Ocelot]

Its in the MDS.

Li-Ion cells contain no toxic cadmium, but they still contain either cobalt oxides or nickel oxides, which are known human carcinogens and should be recycled.

I'm learning new things tonight. There are different types of Lithium batteries - and components like cobalt aren't in all of them. I'm looking for sources, but so far I keep coming up with ones you have to have a subscription to read. Grrr.

 

[Jaguar07]

I'm learning new things tonight. There are different types of Lithium batteries - and components like cobalt aren't in all of them. I'm looking for sources, but so far I keep coming up with ones you have to have a subscription to read. Grrr.

Because AW uses a combination of different types of cells, that are a LiMn type for the IMR batteries, we'll never know from batch to batch what the chemistry is for sure. Panasonics are more consistent for the chemical compositions. The numbers on the side of a panasonic battery will help you find a MSDS. Material Safety Data Sheet. That is specific for that battery model.

 

[Galactic Stone]

"Li-Ion cells contain no toxic cadmium, but they still contain either cobalt oxides or nickel oxides, which are known human carcinogens and should be recycled.

I guess I'm more worried that people are tossing so many Li-on batteries out. These should go to the proper facilities. Hopefully, as vapers, we take the responsibile path. "

This raises a very good point and it is something I had never considered with disposable consumer products like e-cig batteries. Just considering old cellphones and laptops, our landfills are probably chock full of toxic battery materials. I hope everyone reading this thread will remember to properly recycle or dispose of their old batteries.

The original poster was framing this question in the context of the healthcare professional field, so here is the advice I would give to the poster in regards to answering these claims against e-cigs/PV's by doctors and nurses. Put your rebuttal into terms they can relate with - medical. By comparing the cancer risks for smoking a pack of analog cigarettes a day, versus that of vaping, then it becomes obvious how trivial the concerns over toxic battery fumes are. Making a ruckus over vapers getting cancer from their PV's because of battery fumes is really just engaging in cherry-picking the issue.

I have friends and family in the healthcare industry, and there are many healthcare professionals who will never accept or favorably view the consumption of unnecessary drugs by otherwise healthy patients. And yes, nicotine is a drug and before one becomes addicted, it is not a necessary substance for the human body to function. Many doctors, especially those going on the record publicly about any issue, will error on the side of orthodoxy and caution. In their minds, the vast majority of us have no business using these vaporizers recreationally to ingest nicotine. This also is probably true for many lifelong non-smokers and non-vapers as well - they just don't understand why a person would want to "smoke" anything, whether it's a pipe, cigarette or vaporizer.

Keep in mind, many people don't know what vaping is and have no idea what a PV really is. When they first see a typical PV in use by a stranger, they first assume the device in question is Harry Potter's crack pipe or that the user is "smoking something" with it. Vapor looks a lot like smoke to those who don't know the difference, so they make assumptions. And assumptions can be difficult to combat, especially when they are made by people who are intellectually stubborn. Most doctors are smart enough to realize that vaping is a lot healthier than smoking analogs, but don't expect them to immediately jump on that bandwagon and say so publicly on the record.

Say what they want, PV's have probably saved or extended my lifespan. For the first time ever, I have slipped the suffocating bonds of analogs and only vaporizers have allowed me to do that. Quitting via gum, patches, pills, and cold turkey never worked for me. If not for finding out about PV's, I'd still be chainsmoking analog coffin-nails.

Best regards,

MikeG

 

[BigBen2k]

...
I have friends and family in the healthcare industry, and there are many healthcare professionals who will never accept or favorably view the consumption of unnecessary drugs by otherwise healthy patients. And yes, nicotine is a drug and before one becomes addicted, it is not a necessary substance for the human body to function. Many doctors, especially those going on the record publicly about any issue, will error on the side of orthodoxy and caution. In their minds, the vast majority of us have no business using these vaporizers recreationally to ingest nicotine. This also is probably true for many lifelong non-smokers and non-vapers as well - they just don't understand why a person would want to "smoke" anything, whether it's a pipe, cigarette or vaporizer.
...

That's just sad.

E-cigs have a > 30% success rate for people who want to quit, 5 times higher than any other method.

Tobacco has nicotine and MAOIs naturally, which make them 8 times more addictive than nicotine by itself. Nicotine alone isn't harder to quit than coffee. In two months of vaping, I use 0 nic in my daily rotation now.

CASAA - The Consumer Advocates for Smoke-free Alternatives Association is doing great work to get this information out, with properly done studies. I ordered information cards from them a few days ago, and received them yesterday!

 

[mkbilbo]

I have friends and family in the healthcare industry, and there are many healthcare professionals who will never accept or favorably view the consumption of unnecessary drugs by otherwise healthy patients. And yes, nicotine is a drug and before one becomes addicted, it is not a necessary substance for the human body to function. Many doctors, especially those going on the record publicly about any issue, will error on the side of orthodoxy and caution. In their minds, the vast majority of us have no business using these vaporizers recreationally to ingest nicotine. This also is probably true for many lifelong non-smokers and non-vapers as well - they just don't understand why a person would want to "smoke" anything, whether it's a pipe, cigarette or vaporizer.

By the way, great post. I wanted to pull this part out only to note that I think healthcare professionals are more likely to embrace the concept of "harm reduction". There will always be some absolutist hold outs but I suspect most accept that we live in anything but a perfect world. A nicotine addition is not ideal but a nicotine addiction without the thousands of other damaging chemicals found in tobacco smoke is better in relative terms.

As I've mentioned, nursing is practically a family tradition among my relatives. And they're universally hostile to current "drug policy". My brother started his career as an ER nurse. He's commented, more than once, that he never saw even one person brought in with a gun shot wound or busted up in a car accident because of pot. Alcohol? All the time. He never advocates legalization because "it's perfectly safe" or anything like that. But, rather, notes how stupid we're being in policy. The less dangerous one is the illegal one. Which makes no sense.

But the folks on the "front lines" as it were see the real world result of policy. It's no abstract thing. While I'm sure there will always be some absolutist, unwilling to compromise types, I would bet that's not the majority. Nor even a large minority. I think most folk in the healthcare field welcome any reduction in human suffering.

Of course, problem is, these policies are not being driven by the healthcare professionals. They're being driven by for profit corporations with large lobbying budgets. Or by politicos with disconnected from and impervious to reality ideologies.

But I do think the healthcare field could end up our strongest ally. I believe they'll embrace (and my RN relatives certainly have) reduction in harm. They're quite happy to see me vape. It means I might be around longer than I was going to be. In an ideal world, I would never have started using nicotine at all. But we don't live in that world. And they know that. They live in the real world. Day in and day out...

 

[mkbilbo]

Also, many of these torches are designed to be water proof - they do not have any venting themselves. If gassing was any kind of issue in normal use then one way waterproof relief valves would be a requirement.

Faulty batteries venting in a torch is a different safety issue, and one that generally does not apply to our PVs because PVs are not sealed units. The problem with a sealed torch is that usually the cap, buttons, or the head will blow off with explosive force. The torches where this has occurred appear to to have multiple cells in series where one of the cells has become faulty. Most PVs use a single cell, not multiples in series which further increases the safety factor by many orders of magnitude.

Example of series battery failure in a torch (for the curious, should not apply to single cell PVs) Ultrafire 18650 3000mA exploded This was a three cell torch. Two cells were charged overnight, the third cell was charged next day. The batteries were then inserted in the torch and it exploded immediately.

Oof. Why was, I'll say it, an amateur doing anything like that to begin with? And... souped up flashlights ("torches" in your language ) is a hobby? Really?

Humans is weird.

Of course, as you point out, this is a whole other situation. The ordinary PV/e-cig isn't a water tight sealed device and doesn't allow "mix 'n' match" batteries. Hobbyists dealing with high powered Li-Ions should know what they're doing. Else, they should not be taking the risks.

Such as, I can DIY household wiring. Light switches, outlets, simple stuff like that. My abilities stop at the breaker box. What I know there and beyond is, "turn breaker off before doing wiring". Beyond that, the mental map is "here be monsters".

My brother called not long ago, a breaker was acting weird and making noise. I said, "shut it off, call an electrician". I know where my limits are. And I just ain't gonna go there.

(Heh. Years and years ago, I worked as an electrician's helper. The only circuit breaker box I ever wired did not work. 'Nuff said eh? )

Anyway. Still, and again, advanced PVs are for advanced vapers. The vast bulk of these widgets are very basic and very, very, very unlikely to have any kind of catastrophic failure. Certainly not "vent" regularly. I hate to tell the alarmists this but if basic Li-Ion tech is prone to catastrophic failure, we better get all those cell phones recalled immediately. I've seen the statistics. In the US (just us), there are more activated cell phones than people in the country. How that happened, I dunno. How many cell phones do people need???

And people are casual as all get out with their phones. They don't treat them with "delicacy". Don't time charging or test the voltage levels or anything else. If these batteries posed any significant risk at all, cell phones would be going off like firecrackers all over...

 

[sawlight]

Oof. Why was, I'll say it, an amateur doing anything like that to begin with? And... souped up flashlights ("torches" in your language ) is a hobby? Really?

Humans is weird.

Of course, as you point out, this is a whole other situation. The ordinary PV/e-cig isn't a water tight sealed device and doesn't allow "mix 'n' match" batteries. Hobbyists dealing with high powered Li-Ions should know what they're doing. Else, they should not be taking the risks.

Such as, I can DIY household wiring. Light switches, outlets, simple stuff like that. My abilities stop at the breaker box. What I know there and beyond is, "turn breaker off before doing wiring". Beyond that, the mental map is "here be monsters".

My brother called not long ago, a breaker was acting weird and making noise. I said, "shut it off, call an electrician". I know where my limits are. And I just ain't gonna go there.

(Heh. Years and years ago, I worked as an electrician's helper. The only circuit breaker box I ever wired did not work. 'Nuff said eh? )

Anyway. Still, and again, advanced PVs are for advanced vapers. The vast bulk of these widgets are very basic and very, very, very unlikely to have any kind of catastrophic failure. Certainly not "vent" regularly. I hate to tell the alarmists this but if basic Li-Ion tech is prone to catastrophic failure, we better get all those cell phones recalled immediately. I've seen the statistics. In the US (just us), there are more activated cell phones than people in the country. How that happened, I dunno. How many cell phones do people need???

And people are casual as all get out with their phones. They don't treat them with "delicacy". Don't time charging or test the voltage levels or anything else. If these batteries posed any significant risk at all, cell phones would be going off like firecrackers all over...

"Souped up flashlights" is a HUGE hobby! Check out candle power forums some time, a lot more members there than here! I've modded several lights myself!
You can also thank "flashaholics" for a lot of the technology the we have in PV's, PV modders borrowed a lot of what was learned in the flashlight world and started making PV's that way.
Sorry about the derail.

 

[crxess]

carcinogenics.

Back again

Please Ask your Expert Md - Exactly Which carcinogenics We are inhaling. I for one would love to hear the answer.

 

[footbag]

Mini-update: Cautiously optimistic.

My supervisor responded to my email. In part --> "I will look into the request and see what I can ascertain." (and) "Check in following your shift tomorrow."

Good news: Information forthcoming.

Bad news: She wants to see me. I was hoping for a link or email attachment sans face-to-face.

Really, vapers, as mentioned previously, she is intimidation-central (to everyone). She construes questioning Administration as the 8th deadly sin.

But hey, I'm ready to take one on the chin!

You may want to remind her that the O2 masks and IV's both use lithium batteries. BUT, just like e-cigs, the batteries neither vent to the IV or air mask or are more dangerous then the alternative.

 

[mkbilbo]

"Souped up flashlights" is a HUGE hobby! Check out candle power forums some time, a lot more members there than here! I've modded several lights myself!
You can also thank "flashaholics" for a lot of the technology the we have in PV's, PV modders borrowed a lot of what was learned in the flashlight world and started making PV's that way.
Sorry about the derail.

Oh, I know we all owe the tinkerers a great deal. The entire computer field exists because of people futzing around in little, cluttered home shops doing nutty things everybody else thought was crazy (I remember when "mainstream" business thought "home computer" was lunacy). Also, I'd love to have time. Heh, you should see the four shelves of salvaged parts over there to my right. Just... flashlights? That one took me by surprise.

(Now, if it can be used for a Halloween prop... I'm in!)

 

[mkbilbo]

Back again

Please Ask your Expert Md - Exactly Which carcinogenics We are inhaling. I for one would love to hear the answer.

You know. Toxic ones! That are toxicly carcinogenic having carcinogenicity and toxicity of the carcinogenic kind you see...

 

[Monkey7]

Okay, just arrived home. I'm exhausted and have an update with information, as promised.

First, if there's a Veteran member on here, who might want to help with this, please let me know via PM.

The reason I mention that is as follows: I can give them the name of the hospital and information, if they wish to confront the source of information in my first post; as someone who is thoroughly educated on this battery issue will be able to respond to their nonsensical data far better than myself. ** More on that in a moment.

Here's the load of b.s. that happened today (can you tell I'm grumpy from it?)

Before I met with my supervisor, I found a printout in my inbox from her. It was this page:
Lithium-ion Safety Concerns – Battery University

As a matter of fact, I think someone on here might have posted that exact flipping article.

I read it and it has *nothing* to do with inhaling fumes from a normally functioning battery. What. The. Hell. I wasn't expecting anything in my inbox, but to get something that isn't from JAMA or the FDA is ridiculous.

This afternoon when I finally spoke to her one-on-one, here's what I was told in summary.......

The information we were given is based on the information given during a "Cessation" class given to the public at the hospital. (Note: there are multiple classes on a variant of topics offered to the public there).

I was further told that those attending this Cessation class are warned that using an ecigarette does cause a person to inhale fumes from a lithium battery (I took that to mean normal use) and because of that, are encouraged not to use them.

And yes, I asked what information they provide, if any, to the attending public to substantiate this information? The reply? "Did you check your inbox?" - referring to the aforementioned, idiotic webpage.

So, there is someone who is definitely teaching that information to the general public within the hospital. I don't know who it is yet. I just walked in a few minutes ago. But, I can find out and of course, anyone could by calling to inquire who instructs that Cessation class.

What's most troubling to me, is that whomever this instructor is - they are not only putting forward information to the public, but doing so in a way that infers medical viability.

*Now I understand why we're not to discuss any dangers with patients. I believe they will be **referred** to this class if and/or after the Attending (physician) sees a notation on their chart that they're using ecigs. I have absolutely nothing to substantiate that. But I know 1 + 2 isn't 4.

And, returning to what I previously mentioned. If anyone, more apt on this topic than myself, wants to question this person, I'll provide the information off-thread. In fairness, which I have about a shred left, this person may have more information than what my supervisor provided. They better.

Alright, I need to decompress now. SIGH.

 

[RosaJ]

I feel your frustration. I would suggest you pose your question in the CASAA forum or even their website. If nothing else, they need to be aware what hospitals are telling their patients about ecigs and they probably have the names of experts that can challenge the hospital's stance.

I don't think that the hospital is ready to take anyone's input seriously unless they have the credentials necessary. Good luck to you, and still think you can find work as a Registered Nurse elsewhere. There have been quite a few threads in this forum where our members have been allowed to vape while being treated in the hospitals. Your hospital may very well be the exception to the rule instead of the majority view.

Personally, I would refuse to be treated in any hospital that relies on junk science to treat me when I'm sick.

 

[jcco]

I don't know about you but my batteries never even get warm. Not charging, in use or anytime.