I've seen a few members on here that want to buy juices that are diacetyl free. I have absolutely no idea to the importance of this. Can somebody here clarify this for me the dangers of have diacetyl in juices/liquid.?
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diacetyl-free?
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From Wikipedia:
"Diacetyl (IUPAC systematic name: butanedione or 2,3-butanedione) is a natural byproduct of fermentation. It is a vicinal diketone (two C=O groups, side-by-side) with the molecular formula C4H6O2. Diacetyl occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages and is added to some foods to impart a buttery flavor."
In "edible" form, it is fine... but in vapour/gaseous form with long term (no one really knows how long) it is toxic and may cause Bronchiolitis obliterans, which is an irrervisible and potentially fatal lung disease.
So.. of course we are heating and vapouring juices.. so juices that contain this ingredient are avoided like the plague. There may only be very minute or trace levels in the juices that contain Diacetyle, however as with anything you are inhaling, it is best to be safe than sorry.
A common product to find this substance in is Butter-flavoured popcorn. Ingestion is not a problem but microwaving it could be.
"Diacetyl (IUPAC systematic name: butanedione or 2,3-butanedione) is a natural byproduct of fermentation. It is a vicinal diketone (two C=O groups, side-by-side) with the molecular formula C4H6O2. Diacetyl occurs naturally in alcoholic beverages and is added to some foods to impart a buttery flavor."
In "edible" form, it is fine... but in vapour/gaseous form with long term (no one really knows how long) it is toxic and may cause Bronchiolitis obliterans, which is an irrervisible and potentially fatal lung disease.
So.. of course we are heating and vapouring juices.. so juices that contain this ingredient are avoided like the plague. There may only be very minute or trace levels in the juices that contain Diacetyle, however as with anything you are inhaling, it is best to be safe than sorry.
A common product to find this substance in is Butter-flavoured popcorn. Ingestion is not a problem but microwaving it could be.
Oh wow, thanks you so much for the explanation! VERY much appreciated.
This is the first that I'm hearing about this and will definitely do the same as the rest. Can't believe that some vendors allow this product in their juices. We all quit cigs to avoid such illnesses and still have to be leery about certain things.
I guess I'm in the same boat as everyone else with finding vendors that don't use this Diacetyl.
Are their any flavors that are more likely to contain it? Or any known vendors that use Diacetyl that I should be aware of?
Hopefully a list can be created on this forum to notify everyone else of any vendors that tend to use Diacetyl in their juices.
This is the first that I'm hearing about this and will definitely do the same as the rest. Can't believe that some vendors allow this product in their juices. We all quit cigs to avoid such illnesses and still have to be leery about certain things.
I guess I'm in the same boat as everyone else with finding vendors that don't use this Diacetyl.
Are their any flavors that are more likely to contain it? Or any known vendors that use Diacetyl that I should be aware of?
Hopefully a list can be created on this forum to notify everyone else of any vendors that tend to use Diacetyl in their juices.
I *think* I was warned off of Dekang juices for this reason in my early vaping days. (Well, I'm still in my early days by some estimates...) IIRC I was told to generally avoid Chinese juices, and to generally go with US-made juices for just this reason.
However, I have no idea how accurate either of those generalizations is. (Neither that Chinese=Bad nor that US=Safe.)
Not to get overly political, but given the number of "The chinese put *what* into that product??!!" issues that have come up in the past few years (Aquadots is my favorite but not only example -- google "Aquadots GHB") I'm pretty easily convinced to avoid ingesting things from China.
I *think* I was warned off of Dekang juices for this reason in my early vaping days. (Well, I'm still in my early days by some estimates...) IIRC I was told to generally avoid Chinese juices, and to generally go with US-made juices for just this reason.
However, I have no idea how accurate either of those generalizations is. (Neither that Chinese=Bad nor that US=Safe.)
Not to get overly political, but given the number of "The chinese put *what* into that product??!!" issues that have come up in the past few years (Aquadots is my favorite but not only example -- google "Aquadots GHB") I'm pretty easily convinced to avoid ingesting things from China.
Dekang and Johnnson Creek are the only juice makers I've seen with pictures of clean rooms in manufacturing facilities, both FDA registered, but I haven't been to all juice vendors. Dekang is the largest juice maker in the world and their juice does not contain diacetyl, at least according to their website. Lots of folks around the world selling counterfeit Dekang juice from who knows where. Stay away from those.
I just saw an old thread resurface about which juice makers who claims not to use diacetyl, see if I can find you link...
Edit: here's link but OP's found it already http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/general-e-smoking-discussion/129098-starting-list-diacetyl-free-ejuice-suppliers-please-keep-just-listing-supplier-names-10.html#post3857784
Edit2: Yes, as light487 said, depends on manufacturer, buyer beware.
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Well having met, in person, with the people from HealthCabin, I know that they would never purposefully put anything harmful in there and they make sure of what they are selling etc. They are selling Dekang but also started their own line of mixed juices. So can't really agree with the "Chinese juices are off limits" thing.
FlavourArt flavourings recently chose to remove all flavourings that contains this substance from their "vapeable" range of flavours, so in saying that it means that some of their flavourings DID contain it. Specifically the flavours that have a "buttery" flavour are the flavours that are most likely to contain it. Do too did, and from what I know "do", some of LorAnn's Oils flavourings contain this diacetyl substance.. again, it's the buttery flavours you need to avoid.
I mention these two companies because one is Italian and the other, I'm not sure which country, is not Chinese. Many US and non-US mixers of juice have been using these companies' flavourings to create their juices.
FlavourArt flavourings recently chose to remove all flavourings that contains this substance from their "vapeable" range of flavours, so in saying that it means that some of their flavourings DID contain it. Specifically the flavours that have a "buttery" flavour are the flavours that are most likely to contain it. Do too did, and from what I know "do", some of LorAnn's Oils flavourings contain this diacetyl substance.. again, it's the buttery flavours you need to avoid.
I mention these two companies because one is Italian and the other, I'm not sure which country, is not Chinese. Many US and non-US mixers of juice have been using these companies' flavourings to create their juices.
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If you are interested, this is a deeper topic than it seems. There are several other compounds that are used as Diacetyl substitutes, and they too have been associated with the "popcorn lung" disease.
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/flavoringlung/diacetyl_worker_alert.html
http://www.osha.gov/dsg/guidance/diacetyl-guidance.html
Most juice makers have no idea what the flavorings they buy contain. Moreover, they are not terribly interested, as it's "beyond their expertise". Of course they mean no harm, but they seem unwilling to risk shelving some of their best-selling flavors. Most flavoring makers don't know what exactly the bulk flavors they purchase contain. And so on, up the supply ladder. Doing detailed analysis on every batch would get very expensive. It's a complicated story that involves many layers of chemists and wholesalers and a lot of trade secrets.
The best advice you can get is this: it's a mistake to look for vendors who do or don't. ANY flavoring that is rich and buttery, vanillaey and creamy, is very very likely to contain one or more of these compounds. The smart thing is to avoid them, and also to generally keep flavoring to a low level, as we know very little about the effects of inhaling food flavoring. The common practice of pouring 20% or more flavorings into an e-liquid base is asking for trouble, and completely unnecessary, as the taste buds gradually compensate for a high or low level. It's contrary to the mercantile "more is better" concept, but in practice smaller amounts of flavoring, below 5%, work very nicely in e-liquids.
http://www.osha.gov/SLTC/flavoringlung/diacetyl_worker_alert.html
http://www.osha.gov/dsg/guidance/diacetyl-guidance.html
Most juice makers have no idea what the flavorings they buy contain. Moreover, they are not terribly interested, as it's "beyond their expertise". Of course they mean no harm, but they seem unwilling to risk shelving some of their best-selling flavors. Most flavoring makers don't know what exactly the bulk flavors they purchase contain. And so on, up the supply ladder. Doing detailed analysis on every batch would get very expensive. It's a complicated story that involves many layers of chemists and wholesalers and a lot of trade secrets.
The best advice you can get is this: it's a mistake to look for vendors who do or don't. ANY flavoring that is rich and buttery, vanillaey and creamy, is very very likely to contain one or more of these compounds. The smart thing is to avoid them, and also to generally keep flavoring to a low level, as we know very little about the effects of inhaling food flavoring. The common practice of pouring 20% or more flavorings into an e-liquid base is asking for trouble, and completely unnecessary, as the taste buds gradually compensate for a high or low level. It's contrary to the mercantile "more is better" concept, but in practice smaller amounts of flavoring, below 5%, work very nicely in e-liquids.
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Makes sense since most of the suggested vendors will be based more on he say, she say sort of stuff. Definitely going to avoid buttery type flavors like you have suggested. Honestly think this is the best advice I received yet. THANKS!!
Thanks for the much more informed info than what I had guys -- very interesting.
I'll stick with the company's that have chemists and lab techs on payroll to test what they're making several times during the day, that way they know what's going into the bottle. That's why I only use Dekang.
Makes total sense to me. All these mom and shop shops are unregulated but they do make some nice tasting juice though LOL But, which site do you order your Dekang from. Heard that there are a lot of knockoffs going around. Don't wanna get any of that stuff.
Looks like I'll be ordering from Health Cabin soon. Not sure how long it would take to ship to the US though...
Heaven Gifts or Vapor Valley, when you get it, real Dekang will be in a med grade bottle and have YNDK printed on the cap. If you want to get a good look at Dekang check this out: http://www.youtube.com/user/dhenschel05#p/a/u/2/OWR65NTH9B4
Actually ordering a bottle right now. At this point, the only "Dekang" that I got was from Madvapes which didn't have the UNDK printed on the cap. I honestly wish that more US vendors would take the same steps as Dekang. Which eliminates any chance of contamination or anything else.
Thanks a lot for the vid. It's greatly appreciated and an eye opening moment for me.
Thanks a lot for the vid. It's greatly appreciated and an eye opening moment for me.
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From what it sounds like. It might be pretty hard to distinguish the vanilla custard flavor from similar flavors such as vanilla bean ice cream from what i read in the article. Thanks a lot for the link. It pretty much gave me all the information I need.
I vape Dekang tobacco flavors. Most of them share a slight pungency, in a good away. As of a month ago, Dekang only had YNDK (Yun Nan - name of province in China known for herbs and flowers - De Kang) on bottles caps up to 30 ml. The 50 ml and 1 liter bottles did not. I saw that in "Conversation with Dekang rep" thread in Madvapes supplier forum. I bought a 50 ml bottle "Dekang USA Mix" from Madvapes once...wasn't right. Don't know about other flavors.
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Thanks for the info, didn't know that. Explains a lot since I was starting to think that all bottle from Dekang were supposed to have the YNDK on the cap.
Anyways, that's what I've been reading on their forum. A lot of people were complaining about the taste of their Dekang juices and Madvapes basically didn't have any response for it. I was one of the ones that had some of the bottles from 3 mnths ago and I'm not sure if it was the real thing or not yet.
so is it just safer to stay away from vanilla in general? or just that vanilla custard? cause i have some plain vanilla and as a newbie am obviously curious lol
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