So it's the flavor that contained diacetyl, not the vanilla ingredient, correct? Vanilla as an ingredient is safe right?
Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!
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So it's the flavor that contained diacetyl, not the vanilla ingredient, correct? Vanilla as an ingredient is safe right?
Flavor art has/had some flavorings that contain/contained diacetyl in them. Butter is one of them, but they are working hard to remove it from their flavorings that they flavor our juices with. They have a full list on their site of the ones that still contain diacetyl, but that list is getting shorter everyday. We also have a thread with a list going that lists it. Im on my phone or I would copy and paste them here so you could link to them. Sorry about that and hope someone can put the links in here for you? 
Does anyone know if Vapor Renu "555" juice has, or ever had diacetyl in it?
Do tobacco flavors normally use this flavor, or is it mostly other flavors?
Do tobacco flavors normally use this flavor, or is it mostly other flavors?
Xfactor, all of the chemicals you mention are from the same family of diketone molecules as diacetyl. These are perfectly safe to eat but diacetyl has been proven to be quite dangerous to inhale. Acetoin and acetyl propionyl are chemical cousins and suspected to be possibly as dangerous to inhale as diacetyl. Some people want to avoid these ingredients in our e-liquids since we have chosen to vape as a reduced harm alternative to traditional smoking.
It has been and still is a difficult task to get our juice suppliers to disclose which flavors contain these diketones. This is not about just one supplier, this is about asking all suppliers to help us continue to choose a safer method of getting our nicotine. Some of the flavoring suppliers have been more curtious to our efforts by listing which of their flavorings contain diacetyl and similar diketones. A lot of suppliers who mix our e-liquids either want us to believe that there are no dangers, or simply don't know enough about chemistry to know which flavorings contain these chems. We simply ask for disclosure so that we can make our own decisions. I'm not sure why this has been such a difficult thing to ask of our industry.
Bovinia,
I whole heartedly agree with you on all counts! Thank you for your response.
What about "Acetylpyrazine"? There is a supplier who says he substitutes this in place of diacetyl when a recipe calls for diacetyl. He said it is from the same chemical family, but a different animal.
X, hopefully someone else who has more knowledge than I can give a little more info on Acetylpyrazine for us. All I can gather is just from internet search and I am not a chemist. I know that there are acceptable substitutes for diacetyl and hopefully this is one of them. One thing you have to remember is that ALL of the flavorings we use are created and tested for ingestion but not inhalation. It doesn't mean they are all unsafe, that is something we just don't know. We are pioneers (a more polite way of calling ourselves guinea pigs) in this new era of alternatives to smoking
acetylpyrazine is _really_ widely used. There are a number of pyrazine derivatives used in flavorings, that crossed over into tobacco flavorings, and then crossed into vaping.
(going back a few posts)
even vanilla isn't a guaranteed safe flavoring- either in its "natural" form (extracts, absolutes), nor as vanillin or ethyl vanillin.
As Bovina so aptly noted- we are indeed guinea pigs. We likely won't see the results of this grand experiment for years to come. I do expect to see results, but I can't even begin to wager the scale of them.
It's kinda like when a drug is a approved and goes public. It may been (fairly) safe in the phased human trials, but when it hits usage numbers in the 10,000's, to 100,000's, even millions, on a chronic basis for a few years, all sorts of unknown and sometime catastrophic reactions pop up.
My university training was in biology, one of my "hobby" subjects was toxicology/pharmacology. I worked as a biologist for.. 10-15yrs after grad (the last few were kinda slow, dunno if they count. I did get paid though), until I got sick (not from my experiments ... I don' think 8-o ) and had to leave the lab for consulting work.
As a semi-professional, my official stance is: we're mostly flying blind.
There are "stuffs" that I avoid. Pyrazine flavorings don't make my list of things to avoid based upon current evidence.
My sig disclaimers apply doubly for this post
You pays yer dime and you takes yer chances...
(going back a few posts)
even vanilla isn't a guaranteed safe flavoring- either in its "natural" form (extracts, absolutes), nor as vanillin or ethyl vanillin.
As Bovina so aptly noted- we are indeed guinea pigs. We likely won't see the results of this grand experiment for years to come. I do expect to see results, but I can't even begin to wager the scale of them.
It's kinda like when a drug is a approved and goes public. It may been (fairly) safe in the phased human trials, but when it hits usage numbers in the 10,000's, to 100,000's, even millions, on a chronic basis for a few years, all sorts of unknown and sometime catastrophic reactions pop up.
My university training was in biology, one of my "hobby" subjects was toxicology/pharmacology. I worked as a biologist for.. 10-15yrs after grad (the last few were kinda slow, dunno if they count. I did get paid though), until I got sick (not from my experiments
... I don' think 8-o ) and had to leave the lab for consulting work. As a semi-professional, my official stance is: we're mostly flying blind.
There are "stuffs" that I avoid. Pyrazine flavorings don't make my list of things to avoid based upon current evidence.
My sig disclaimers apply doubly for this post
You pays yer dime and you takes yer chances...
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Deus, thank you for the info on the pyrazines
Yes, Deus, what she said. I like hearing from our scientists WRT this matter. I quit smoking, but it's really hard to quit vaping with all the wonderful flavors. Because or the flavorings scare, I have cut down from 20% flavoring to 5% flavoring. It still tastes okay to me, but I'm still one of the guinea pigs.
Hi Bovinia.
The latest trend by some flavor vendors seems to be flagging flavors that they know contain diacetyl/acetylpropionyl/acetoin etc as likely unsafe for vaping. FA and PA are both doing it. Hurrah!
From what I've heard, the flavorists are not finding it impossible to leave out these compounds. The flavor vendors cannot be 100% sure which additional ones should also be flagged, unless they make them in-house or analyze them. But this is a vast improvement.
Here is where I think some pressure IS appropriate. While the flavor vendors continue to work on discovery of any hidden "offenders", the juice-mixers should absolutely pass on what is being now disclosed to them (in large measure thanks to our efforts). Wherever they use a flavoring that the flavorist has tagged as diketone-bearing, they should tell their users that this particular juice "contains buttery flavoring that may be unsuitable for inhalation". That's a bare minimum. People can then choose.
There is zero excuse for failing to pass on the warning, it's not a personal choice any longer. Not with the OSHA position. This is where buyers should request disclosure and vote with their wallets. If I saw that my juice vendor sells rich flavored juices that seem to use the very flavors flagged as diketone-bearing by flavorists and none of the juices are flagged in any way, I'd sure press for an explanation.
From what I've heard, the flavorists are not finding it impossible to leave out these compounds. The flavor vendors cannot be 100% sure which additional ones should also be flagged, unless they make them in-house or analyze them. But this is a vast improvement.
Here is where I think some pressure IS appropriate. While the flavor vendors continue to work on discovery of any hidden "offenders", the juice-mixers should absolutely pass on what is being now disclosed to them (in large measure thanks to our efforts). Wherever they use a flavoring that the flavorist has tagged as diketone-bearing, they should tell their users that this particular juice "contains buttery flavoring that may be unsuitable for inhalation". That's a bare minimum. People can then choose.
There is zero excuse for failing to pass on the warning, it's not a personal choice any longer. Not with the OSHA position. This is where buyers should request disclosure and vote with their wallets. If I saw that my juice vendor sells rich flavored juices that seem to use the very flavors flagged as diketone-bearing by flavorists and none of the juices are flagged in any way, I'd sure press for an explanation.
Hey Sea, sure miss you! Loving the hot new avatar
Thanks Bov. I miss you to. I have your email addy, so I'll drop you a line soon. Sorry I dint see this sooner.
I didn't know OSHA had any concern or issue in this. Is this something new I haven't heard about? Do you have a link for it? Please and thank you.
Ingredient labels either on the sites or the bottles (or both) would be nice. I wouldn't be surprised if the FDa end up making that a requirement (assuming they don't just blanket ban sellin flavored juice.
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Im going to bring up the pyrazines again. I do know that eliquid or some eliquid contains both acetylpyrazine and tetramethylpryazine just based on some ingredients list such as TW red label, and some others Ive seen, but can no longer remember the brands. I am also concerned about them as well as all the others we have talked about so far. Diacetyl has become for some, a generic term for "the bad thing" in eliquid, while forgetting that that is just the tip of the iceberg and there are many more potential offenders in different chemical groups. I dont like to see easy satisfaction when one hears that some are removing diacetly from flavors. Tetramethylpyrazine(and other pyrazines to be accurate) is something I want more information on if anyone has any. I have no proof of anything but from searching around Im getting an uneasy feeling that it acts on neurons in some way.
Agreed Zelphie - just the tip of the iceberg. While some ingredients such as diacetyl aren't as harmful breathing such as smelling in the air, sucking down the chemicals directly into our lungs is something I've been thinking a lot about lately.
>That is a copy and paste from you Bovinia. To me that phrase says many things. I've wondered the same thing. If I were a vendor for the short haul and the quick buck I honestly wouldn't give this issue a second glance. I mean really, why should I..right!
If I were a vendor for the duration, a vendor who honestly cares about the well being of all of my customers, a vendor who might want to bring his or her kids into the business and one day, let them take it over. A vendor who does research and holds the quality of a product as the top priority. If I held all of these values as a vendor what would I do about this particular subject????
Personally if I wanted my juice to be completely "D" free,before I bought any liquid, I would have to know exactly what flavorings went into the mix and from what company. Then I would need to contact the flavoring company and find out if the "D" or the other alternatives were used. Now that sounds simple enough "Sins" right (god I miss her). The hurdle we face as consumers is the "secret recipes" Who wants to give up the RY4 or the SnickerDoodle recipe for something that is not a requirement. I believe many of the DIYers still purchase vendors juices because and only because they don't know how to make it exactly the same.
Kinda rambling a bit but I do have a question about the popcorn workers... Was the "D" they inhaled that was in the butter, from a vapor or was it from a chemical change through burning or cooking the butter. I'm not sure if there is even a difference.
Hi Bov Hi Sea...miss u guys
Of course all food flavoring is an unknown when inhaled. But, to review, the "diacetyl" issue is very specific. We are talking about a family of buttery flavoring widely used in foods, that includes Diacetyl, Acetylpropionyl, related diketones and mixtures, plus the closely related Acetoin, maybe. The diketones are statistically associated with respiratory damage in humans (culminating in popcorn lung disease, Bronchiolitis Obliterans) and this is confirmed by severe damage in lab rats and mice. Below 100 ppm no immediate damage is seen, around 300 ppm all animals die in 6 hours.
The claim by some here that even 0.02 ppm causes disease is (IMHO) incorrectly derived from situations in which such low concentrations were seen on average in plants where workers showed signs of damage, but there is reason to believe these people were exposed to vastly higher concentrations in bursts. Also other compounds were present in the workplaces. No permissible exposure concentration (PEL) for diketones has been set by authorities to date. PEL, however, is a statutory and not a medical concept.
Different species react differently, and long-term exposure is different from short term exposure in breathing chambers. My rough calculations estimate that a strongly flavored rich-vanilley-buttery vape produces around 5 ppm diketones in the inhaled air. That's obviously less than the 100 ppm threshold for immediate damage in lab animals, but too close for comfort in my mind.
Acetoin is very similar chemically to diacetyl, is partly converted to diacetyl in storage and metabolically, has had similar animal tests done but they are still being analyzed. The first subjective impression in the lab is that it's perhaps a less potent irritant. If this is supported by the animal results, it might make Acetoin the buttery substitute of choice. We will see. For now none of the substitutes can be considered safe, and thus certain flavors simply should not be used in room scents or e-juice. @Seabrook, OSHA has indeed warned both workers and employers, focusing on diacetyl itself, but mentioning the others:
Safety and Health Topics: WORKER ALERT - Diacetyl and Substitutes
Hazard Communication Guidance for Diacetyl and Food Flavorings Containing Diacetyl
Occupational Exposure to Flavoring Substances: Health Effects and Hazard Control
Note that per the OSHA bulletin, flavoring that contains 1% or more diacetyl (only diacetyl is specified) now MUST be labeled:
That would include many flavorings sold to the juice-blenders, as it's common for flavoring to contain 1-3 % of a mix of diketones and acetoin.
A core problems remains that most flavor vendors simply do not know the exact contents of the flavors they buy in bulk from the handful of top-of-the-foodchain labs that treat composition as trade secrets. Some flavorists have started reformulating and flagging the ones they know still contains these compounds. This trend will hopefully progress. Shotgun concerns about other compounds is probably best handled by (conservatively) limiting the amounts and types of flavoring you use. I think that we should focus here on the stuff we KNOW is toxic, and demand that vape-mixers pass on warnings on at least the specific flavors the flavor vendors are now flagging, as e.g. as we see for Cream Whipped, Panettone or Croissant and others on the FA site:
Or PA's French Vanilla Deluxe and others:
We have come a long way in the last few months. The times they ARE a changing. I hope this answers your questions.
The claim by some here that even 0.02 ppm causes disease is (IMHO) incorrectly derived from situations in which such low concentrations were seen on average in plants where workers showed signs of damage, but there is reason to believe these people were exposed to vastly higher concentrations in bursts. Also other compounds were present in the workplaces. No permissible exposure concentration (PEL) for diketones has been set by authorities to date. PEL, however, is a statutory and not a medical concept.
Different species react differently, and long-term exposure is different from short term exposure in breathing chambers. My rough calculations estimate that a strongly flavored rich-vanilley-buttery vape produces around 5 ppm diketones in the inhaled air. That's obviously less than the 100 ppm threshold for immediate damage in lab animals, but too close for comfort in my mind.
Acetoin is very similar chemically to diacetyl, is partly converted to diacetyl in storage and metabolically, has had similar animal tests done but they are still being analyzed. The first subjective impression in the lab is that it's perhaps a less potent irritant. If this is supported by the animal results, it might make Acetoin the buttery substitute of choice. We will see. For now none of the substitutes can be considered safe, and thus certain flavors simply should not be used in room scents or e-juice. @Seabrook, OSHA has indeed warned both workers and employers, focusing on diacetyl itself, but mentioning the others:
Safety and Health Topics: WORKER ALERT - Diacetyl and Substitutes
Hazard Communication Guidance for Diacetyl and Food Flavorings Containing Diacetyl
Occupational Exposure to Flavoring Substances: Health Effects and Hazard Control
Note that per the OSHA bulletin, flavoring that contains 1% or more diacetyl (only diacetyl is specified) now MUST be labeled:
DANGER Can cause damage to respiratory tract and lungs if inhaled
WARNING Can cause eye, skin, nose, and throat irritation
Responsible party name and contact information
WARNING Can cause eye, skin, nose, and throat irritation
Responsible party name and contact information
That would include many flavorings sold to the juice-blenders, as it's common for flavoring to contain 1-3 % of a mix of diketones and acetoin.
A core problems remains that most flavor vendors simply do not know the exact contents of the flavors they buy in bulk from the handful of top-of-the-foodchain labs that treat composition as trade secrets. Some flavorists have started reformulating and flagging the ones they know still contains these compounds. This trend will hopefully progress. Shotgun concerns about other compounds is probably best handled by (conservatively) limiting the amounts and types of flavoring you use. I think that we should focus here on the stuff we KNOW is toxic, and demand that vape-mixers pass on warnings on at least the specific flavors the flavor vendors are now flagging, as e.g. as we see for Cream Whipped, Panettone or Croissant and others on the FA site:
This flavor contains Diacetyl and/or related diketones. Not suitable for vaping.
Or PA's French Vanilla Deluxe and others:
This flavor contains "Custard" ingredients (Acetoin, Acetyl Propionyl)
and it is recommended only for Food based applications
and it is recommended only for Food based applications
We have come a long way in the last few months. The times they ARE a changing. I hope this answers your questions.
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