New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[marianna]

Since many years, starting with rebuilding CE4, Vivi Nova Mini and Protank Mini, I have tried all kinds of wire and don't like the taste of SS316, do not even want to try high allergen nickel, since I am already allergic to PG, find titanium not as easy as kanthal, so I use kanthal A1 with cotton for all my superOhm builds, which I vape on 8 - 12 Watt, sometimes 15W. Don't know which temperatures those wattages represent...(?)

 

[mikepetro]

Since many years, starting with rebuilding CE4, Vivi Nova Mini and Protank Mini, I have tried all kinds of wire and don't like the taste of SS316, do not even want to try high allergen nickel, since I am already allergic to PG, find titanium not as easy as kanthal, so I use kanthal A1 with cotton for all my superOhm builds, which I vape on 8 - 12 Watt, sometimes 15W. Don't know which temperatures those wattages represent...(?)

If it is not a stock coil, I have no frame of reference to estimate your temperatures. The best I can offer will be the VV Nova results that I do for 440BB, at least that is a similar device.

Once you get into DIY coils you introduce a lot more variables, gauge of wire, number of wraps, spacing, firmness of wick packing, etc. I do not have the data to estimate the resulting temps of all of these variables.

 

[Layzee Vaper]

@mikepetro

Unfortunately I think it is going to be almost impossible to determine the coil temps without actual testing, of each individual set up and vaping profile.

Even with stock coils, in devices with a fixed air hole size there are two many variables that effect the temperature in an open loop system.

Just trying to take into account the the effects of draw length, draw rate and juice ratios is very difficult. All of these can make a huge difference to the actual temperature seen.

With all of the different toppers, juice compositions, power levels, air flow options it's got to be pretty much impossible to get any meaningful data, especially if you start looking at DIY coils.

I would have thought though that in real terms most of us are running in roughly the right temperature range, for our own setups, if the temp is much too high we would be constantly rebuilding or swapping out the cooked wicks.

I think there are steps that we can take to try and keep the temperature down.

Juices with a lower boiling point and thinner viscosity appear to help.

Plenty of airflow!

Coils with thicker wires and larger ID's also appear to help slow up the speed that the temperature increases, this should help stop the temperature spiking above the level required.

Use the heat flux value in steam engine to give a broad indication of temperature for the wire and power level you want to use.

Use the minimum amount of power to get the vape you want rather than turning things up to 11!

 

[mikepetro]

Agreed on all counts.

I have no misconceptions of being able to show anything more than a few examples.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk

 

[Mowgli]

@mikepetro

Lookee what a friend just told me about on Facebook.
2 on the way with free shipping

Aromamizer X Pyrex Glass Tank

 

[kiba]

@mikepetro

Lookee what a friend just told me about on Facebook.
2 on the way with free shipping

Aromamizer X Pyrex Glass Tank

Which one was the X?

 

[Mowgli]

Which one was the X?

LMGTFY

I'm a little confused about the question. I hope that helps.

 

[kiba]

Aromamizer X? I remember the v1, v2 Supreme and plus

 

[Mowgli]

Aromamizer X is the name of the glass tank made for the Aromamizer

 

[mikepetro]

@mikepetro

Lookee what a friend just told me about on Facebook.
2 on the way with free shipping

Aromamizer X Pyrex Glass Tank

Too bad all the joints selling it want a Drivers License, I just refuse to send that level of personal ID over the web. Outfits get hacked all the time, at least with a CC I have the banks protection, but identity fraud is a PITA to recover from.

ETA: not to mention the stupidity of having to prove I am 57 years old just to buy a piece of glass........

 

[Mowgli]

I got my Aromamizer X tanks today.
Now I need a decent stainless steel SX350j dual battery mod
My SS Aromamizers just don't look right on any of my mods.
I'll try it on an SS base with a dark amber juice on my "orange" Boxer later.

It works well enough though.
Function/form 99% of the time but looking cool is always a nice bennie.

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks 1M for this Mike.

What VG% are you using?
Baling wire lol

I keep the coils to the top of the posts, wraps between posts basically and tilt the upper connection wrap away from the perimeter slightly. They fit though.
I took an uppy closey picture.
Thickest wire possible to withstand the most rayon that'll pull through.
Then cut about half of the tails away so they'll fit in the deck res.
It's a balancing act.
It only takes 15ml of my bana cream pi to get to this point of gunkness.

View attachment 657573

and this is Midnight Lightning holding my mod (no opposable thumbs)

OK, so I:

• Rewick the build with a pair of "T-Top" wicks.
• Mixed up some 90/10 VG/DW juice
• Cranked up the house AC to compensate for the heatload
• Observed stable readings in Escribe
• Threaded a thermoucouple into the coil
• Switch to Watts mode and ran it

It was like one of those cloud-dude reviews, you know - the guys blowing so much vape you cant see their face, in here for a while. I would definitely have to reduce my nic if I ran this build.

It was rather curious. All puffs were 3ish seconds (except last), all with AFC ring wide open.

I ran the 1st three puffs at 50w, the next three at 55w, and the next three at 60w. All 9 hits were more/less 400 degrees. So I took one more really long draw (last one), 10 secs or so just to make sure, and the long one went up to 460 degrees before my breath gave out.

My theory is that you have so much metal mass in this build that you just arent going get too hot in a 2-3 sec hit. Let it run a while and it will get plenty hot, but after 3 seconds you are still in the upward slope of the heating curve, ie the ROR hasnt leveled out yet.

 

[Mowgli]

OK, so I:

• Rewick the build with a pair of "T-Top" wicks.
• Mixed up some 90/10 VG/DW juice
• Cranked up the house AC to compensate for the heatload
• Observed stable readings in Escribe
• Threaded a thermoucouple into the coil
• Switch to Watts mode and ran it

It was like one of those cloud-dude reviews, you know - the guys blowing so much vape you cant see their face, in here for a while. I would definitely have to reduce my nic if I ran this build.

View attachment 659397

It was rather curious. All puffs were 3ish seconds (except last), all with AFC ring wide open.

I ran the 1st three puffs at 50w, the next three at 55w, and the next three at 60w. All 9 hits were more/less 400 degrees. So I took one more really long draw (last one), 10 secs or so just to make sure, and the long one went up to 460 degrees before my breath gave out.

My theory is that you have so much metal mass in this build that you just arent going get too hot in a 2-3 sec hit. Let it run a while and it will get plenty hot, but after 3 seconds you are still in the upward slope of the heating curve, ie the ROR hasnt leveled out yet.

View attachment 659395

Thanks for the great work Mike.
I only use the center holes blowing directly on the coils and take small primer puffs but this shows that if I take short hits with no primer puffs then I'm under 400;
Nice!

 

[mikepetro]

Thanks for the great work Mike.
I only use the center holes blowing directly on the coils and take small primer puffs but this shows that if I take short hits with no primer puffs then I'm under 400;
Nice!

Middle AFC holes only, 55w, primer puff. A wee bit hotter, not much.

 

[mikepetro]

Deleted, wrong thread.

 

[mikepetro]

OK, thanks to @440BB I now have a VV Provari to play with for a while. He also sent a Vivi Nova with three different size coils. I will run some tests on them this weekend.

I am interested to see how the exact same atty plays out in VV vs VW.

ETA: I have 1.8Ω, 2.4Ω, and 2.8Ω coils to play with on the Vivi Nova.

 

[mikepetro]

Some interesting stats from our own @Kurt (pHd) here on ECF, definitely a pro vaping guy.

Food for thought........

On flavor and sweeteners:

Thermal decomposition (temp/nasties)

Please note the Vivi Nove I will be testing is in this same category of device. I will duplicate the power settings shown below and determine the equivalent temps.

This is telling: notice it says at ALL POWER LEVELS. This is the same class of device (Vivi Nova) that I will be testing this weekend.

Now this is more akin to the K-Tech nano I already tested.

The problem is, while he claims they are unpopular, that many users still use these Gen 2 devices. I have personally talked to many in the course of this thread. Remember, Gen2 devices pretty much include all top coil attys, and some older bottom coil designs qualify too.

 

[Mowgli]

@mikepetro I built a V2 using 1 less wrap today and the flavor is way better.
I was hesitant to build so low (.12Ω) even though everyone said use the same build you used with kanthal and forget about the Ω.
I built dual SS430 24g 5/4 wraps 3.5mm id and
1.) it was easier to fit in the V2
2.) once I updated the firmware it tastes "better enough" to rebuild the others.

I think that since there's "less enough" metal to heat I'm not using a prepuff, it's heated almost instantaneously and it's more flavorful for some reason.
It's counter intuitive but this time less(metal) = more(flavor)

 

[mikepetro]

@mikepetro I built a V2 using 1 less wrap today and the flavor is way better.
I was hesitant to build so low (.12Ω) even though everyone said use the same build you used with kanthal and forget about the Ω.
I built dual SS430 24g 5/4 wraps 3.5mm id and
1.) it was easier to fit in the V2
2.) once I updated the firmware it tastes "better enough" to rebuild the others.

I think that since there's "less enough" metal to heat I'm not using a prepuff, it's heated almost instantaneously and it's more flavorful for some reason.
It's counter intuitive but this time less(metal) = more(flavor)

I am a MTL vaper, but I also like a strong hit. That build of yours I tested will wind up being a night stand mod. The one you usually load with strong juice for that first hit when you wake up (aka Morning Sh:t). No way that thing could be my ADV though.

 

[Pamawoman]

"The problem is, while he claims they are unpopular, that many users still use these Gen 2 devices. I have personally talked to many in the course of this thread. Remember, Gen2 devices pretty much include all top coil attys, and some older bottom coil designs qualify too."
Yep. That is me. My stash is FULL of these. Like I said before, they will be used and trashed much quicker than I wanted to. Thank you for this thread and all this info. Guess I will be loading up on rebuildables. Which is cool since I love to shop for shiny vaping stuff.