New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers
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No, I don't think it was me that asked originally. I do remember a conversation going about it though, just can't remember who it was...cudda bin me.
At least I did say to determine if the vacuum was significant enough to effect boiling point...removing shoe from mouth.
I have been unable to find any studies to date that establish what temperature is necessary for a garden hose to be pliable enough to suck a golf ball through. I realize there are a number of variables, making any results an educated guess. I suspect some studies funded by BH may start cropping up, but no objective studies are on the horizon.
Time to get ready for the naysayers who believe that as long as one can get the golf ball through the hose, the details don't matter.
Time to get ready for the naysayers who believe that as long as one can get the golf ball through the hose, the details don't matter.
Those damned big hose companies ... I doubt anyone trusts them anymore with their awful ethical track record!!
They never met Susie......Those damned big hose companies ... I doubt anyone trusts them anymore with their awful ethical track record!!
Interesting results...
Mike do you know what wire types were used in the different coils?
The 1.8 ohm coil seems very similar to the values I was getting with my own set up.
In my coil I was using 30AWG kanthel.
Looks like the 1.8 and 2.4 ohm coils may be using the same gauge of wire? (just a different number of wraps) and the 2,8 ohm a thinner gauge?
If you PM me the results of all the different tests with the wire types and gauges you have done so far I will see if there is any link between the heat flux values and the actual temps seen.
Mike do you know what wire types were used in the different coils?
The 1.8 ohm coil seems very similar to the values I was getting with my own set up.
In my coil I was using 30AWG kanthel.
Looks like the 1.8 and 2.4 ohm coils may be using the same gauge of wire? (just a different number of wraps) and the 2,8 ohm a thinner gauge?
If you PM me the results of all the different tests with the wire types and gauges you have done so far I will see if there is any link between the heat flux values and the actual temps seen.
All I can say is they were "stock" coils donated by @440BB .
I did tear one apart, a 2.4ohm I believe, and calipered the wire, it was 32AWG. The others looked the same, just different numbers of wraps.
I did tear one apart, a 2.4ohm I believe, and calipered the wire, it was 32AWG. The others looked the same, just different numbers of wraps.
That makes me feel Much better. I always used the 2.4 coil and never went above 3.6 vv. I learned the device so well, rarely did I flood nor dry hit. I really didn't chain vape like one hit after another immediately. There was always that quick cool down.
OK, My Commentary:
First, you will notice a different format than my previous tests. Today's test represents about 9 solid hours of testing, it takes time to figure out how to insert the tiny probes in those tiny cartridges, and still be able to actually vape the device, lots of trial and error. Anyway, it would have added another hour or three if I would have included all the pretty pictures and graphs. Those of of you who have followed along are aware of the methodology and the equipment I use. If you are just joining the party, please view this blog for details on how I am performing my testing.
The way I rigged this particular atty was I heated a sewing needle red hot and made a tiny hole in the tank to slip the probe through. Then I inserted the probe inside the coil.
The results of the test show representative temperatures, when using a VV or VW device, for 3 different stock coils on the Vivi Nova 2.5, while possibly similar they DO NOT represent any other atty or coil.
All of that being said, I do remind those who are interested in the safest vape possible, that these devices are NOT the best choice.
Lets set the controversial Wang Study aside for a second, though I still believe there is something to it. Our own Dr Kurt PhD, @Kurt here on ECF, who is very much an emissary for vaping, has clearly shown that Gen 2 (ie top coil) devices are not the best choice.
^^^^^^^^^^
Formaldehyde Emissions EXCEEDED SMOKING
at ANY power level!
To each their own vape, having the information to make informed decisions is good too!
First, you will notice a different format than my previous tests. Today's test represents about 9 solid hours of testing, it takes time to figure out how to insert the tiny probes in those tiny cartridges, and still be able to actually vape the device, lots of trial and error. Anyway, it would have added another hour or three if I would have included all the pretty pictures and graphs. Those of of you who have followed along are aware of the methodology and the equipment I use. If you are just joining the party, please view this blog for details on how I am performing my testing.
The way I rigged this particular atty was I heated a sewing needle red hot and made a tiny hole in the tank to slip the probe through. Then I inserted the probe inside the coil.
The results of the test show representative temperatures, when using a VV or VW device, for 3 different stock coils on the Vivi Nova 2.5, while possibly similar they DO NOT represent any other atty or coil.
- High temperatures are definitely possible without tasting anything bad.
- Chain vaping SIGNIFICANTLY increased temperature
- Wick saturation could be very finicky, if wick wasnt saturated it SIGNIFICANTLY increased temperature. It is IMPERATIVE that you do the swirl, or genny tilt, or some method to make sure each and every hit starts with a fully saturated wick.
- Tank level had significant affect on temperature, presumably related to wick saturation
- Low mass of coil allowed almost complete cool down in 1 minute, so wait at least a minute between puffs.Chain puffing is VERY bad, high temperatures are almost assured.
- Making voltage adjustments (on the Provari, might not be applicable to other mods) did send voltage to the mod while adjusting, so if you made an adjustment and instantly hit it, it was the similar to a chain vape, ie high temp.
- VW hits were much more consistent from hit to hit, where temp on VV varying a lot more at the same settings.
All of that being said, I do remind those who are interested in the safest vape possible, that these devices are NOT the best choice.
Lets set the controversial Wang Study aside for a second, though I still believe there is something to it. Our own Dr Kurt PhD, @Kurt here on ECF, who is very much an emissary for vaping, has clearly shown that Gen 2 (ie top coil) devices are not the best choice.
^^^^^^^^^^
Formaldehyde Emissions EXCEEDED SMOKING
at ANY power level!
To each their own vape, having the information to make informed decisions is good too!
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I watched a guy at my local vape shop take apart a kayfun and struggle with putting a simple coil in for about an hour. Then it flooded and leaked all over the customer's mod. He told her to come back tomorrow, lol... I think they're glad they can no longer rebuild for people. I've also seen them sell efests to people while they have perfectly good HG2's sitting right there.
I want to thank Mike for taking so much time to gather this data to help users of this older technology understand what really is happening at different power levels to their coil temps. There is definitely a maximum level of power to be aware of to get a safer vape, and it is lower than many might have expected.
At the very minimum, temp conscious users of older non-TC setups can more accurately estimate where to cap their power levels. Although these results can't be applied across the spectrum of all higher gauge wire/top coil setups, as well as rebuildable coils wound with low mass high resistance wire, at least we have a decent starting point.
I can't correlate the results at six watts in these Vivi Nova tests with Dr Kurt's CE4 conclusions, as Kurt indicates that even at those lower levels of power and temp, emissions are dangerously high. Do CE4's just get hotter at the same resistance/power settings? Is 400F actually too high to keep the nasties at safe levels? I can't effectively compare specific circumstances Kurt used to draw those conclusions with the power/temp results we see in these tests.
One thing I can be sure of is that these tests were representative of how I actually vape, and that is unique and valuable!
For now, I'm relatively comfortable with my 2.4 ohm Novas at 3.7-3.9 volts and less than six watts in VW applications. Lower power, wet wicks and reasonable pauses between vapes are critical and now I can actually see the proof.
There hasn't been a real look at this under normal vaping conditions until now and it was overdue. It took a persistent and willing vaper with the right skills to pull it off. Many thanks for giving up your Saturday (again) for the greater good!
At the very minimum, temp conscious users of older non-TC setups can more accurately estimate where to cap their power levels. Although these results can't be applied across the spectrum of all higher gauge wire/top coil setups, as well as rebuildable coils wound with low mass high resistance wire, at least we have a decent starting point.
I can't correlate the results at six watts in these Vivi Nova tests with Dr Kurt's CE4 conclusions, as Kurt indicates that even at those lower levels of power and temp, emissions are dangerously high. Do CE4's just get hotter at the same resistance/power settings? Is 400F actually too high to keep the nasties at safe levels? I can't effectively compare specific circumstances Kurt used to draw those conclusions with the power/temp results we see in these tests.
One thing I can be sure of is that these tests were representative of how I actually vape, and that is unique and valuable!
For now, I'm relatively comfortable with my 2.4 ohm Novas at 3.7-3.9 volts and less than six watts in VW applications. Lower power, wet wicks and reasonable pauses between vapes are critical and now I can actually see the proof.
There hasn't been a real look at this under normal vaping conditions until now and it was overdue. It took a persistent and willing vaper with the right skills to pull it off. Many thanks for giving up your Saturday (again) for the greater good!
I concur.
I no longer use the Vivi Nova and have gone onto the Kabuki and KFL+. I feel rest assured that I was ok while using the Vivi Nova.
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