New studies find carcinogens in vg and pg at high temps, even in tootle puffers

[burnsd]

I am impressed, somebody has been paying close attention!

Indeed.

In the interest of caution, from reading this thread, I've started adding 3% DW to my DIY (previously 90-97.5 VG, 2.25% PG) to lower the BP.

I'm not changing my vaping style (episodes of chain tootling), but I've ordered some 430SS to try TC on my Siren tank. And in the meantime I've dropped from 11 to 10W. The addition of DW makes for comparable flavor (albeit less dense vapor) at that setting.

And I'm finally switching my dripper from Ekowool to KGD after my current wick/coil runs out.

 

[Katdarling]

Not sure which question you were asking, there are 2 different concepts in your quote.

Juice manufactures, the serious ones who will file PMTAs, have this data, I feel sure. They know, based on their recipes, exactly what temps their juices start to go into thermal degradation. Once again, being treated as "Trade Secret" in hopes of maximizing market share. "Thermal Degradation in VG is NOT a new concept, there is a lot of data on it. The only thing newish, is putting it in the context of intentional inhalation.

Flavors BTW are a wildcard because very little inhalation data existed on them prior to all of this.

Personally, I think every bottle of juice sold should have a "Maximum Safe Temp" rating listed clearly on the bottle, as prominent as the nic concentration. Yes, at some point the 3 letter acronyms would need to define "safe", but in the interim it could be something like "the point where thermal degradation rises above "X".

One question, actually, and that had to do with vliquid manufacturers.

What info is it that you think liquid makers might possess? You feel sure that they have some specific info (based on recipes) as regards degradation. You believe that they keep this knowledge as a "Trade Secret" to max out the market share. Yes?

I have sincere doubts that most have ever even considered thinking about that, even slightly. That was my wonderment in the moment. They toss some PG and VG and some nic in a bottle, let it steep (sometimes), then sell it to us, the hungry and eager vapers.

The second statement (video) had more to do with larger sized fishies and frying oil. We can only hope that someday there will be enuf vliquid vendors still in biz to make new labels with "Maximum Safe Temp" rating listed clearly on the bottle.

 

[Layzee Vaper]

Indeed.

In the interest of caution, from reading this thread, I've started adding 3% DW to my DIY (previously 90-97.5 VG, 2.25% PG) to lower the BP.

I'm not changing my vaping style (episodes of chain tootling), but I've ordered some 430SS to try TC on my Siren tank. And in the meantime I've dropped from 11 to 10W. The addition of DW makes for comparable flavor (albeit less dense vapor) at that setting.

And I'm finally switching my dripper from Ekowool to KGD after my current wick/coil runs out.

This is really the point.
Adding a little water, and dropping the power level or adjusting the temp if you have a TC mod are not game changing in terms of the quality of the vape.
However they do put you in what is believed to be the safe zone.
We have all made a much bigger change already, switching from smoking to vaping.

 

[mikepetro]

What info is it that you think liquid makers might possess? You feel sure that they have some specific info (based on recipes) as regards degradation. You believe that they keep this knowledge as a "Trade Secret" to max out the market share. Yes?

I have sincere doubts that most have ever even considered thinking about that, even slightly. That was my wonderment in the moment. They toss some PG and VG and some nic in a bottle, let it steep (sometimes), then sell it to us, the hungry and eager vapers.

Pre-Deeming I would agree. Maybe a few of the biggest vendors had a little data as they researched flavors, additives, ph, etc but for the most part it was mix it all up and be careful about the nic %.

My comment is "present day" post deeming. The big guys who intend to file PMTAs now have data on thermal degradation for VG/PG and the particular flavors and additives they intend to use, etc. They also have data on particulate size, pulmonary effects, and much more. They have data on the metal they use for coils, and on the filler they will use for wicking. Especially juices being made for a pod mod by BT and BV. Mainly because they know if they dont have it they wont stand a prayer of getting a PMTA. They are designing these closed systems around the juices they intend to produce, ie what temps the pod mods will be designed to run at internally, what airflow they will be design for, what ml/puff they will be designed for etc..

That is where the whole competitive "trade secret" thing starts coming into play. These guys have data now, but they wont share it because the fewer PMTAs that get approved, the more market share the successful ones will have afterwards. So why publish data that might help some other company succeed in getting a PMTA. They would rather other companies have incomplete or bad data and fail the PMTA requirements, less competition in the marketplace.

Dont think for a second that BT in particular hasnt been collecting this data. They have the resources, and the knowledge of the FDA labyrinth, to know they are going to "HAVE" to have it.

We will start seeing it as the PMTAs get submitted. I wonder if PMTAs fall under the Freedom of Information Act?

 

[mikepetro]

This is really the point.
Adding a little water, and dropping the power level or adjusting the temp if you have a TC mod are not game changing in terms of the quality of the vape.
However they do put you in what is believed to be the safe zone.
We have all made a much bigger change already, switching from smoking to vaping.

I would use the term "safer zone".

Although I agree with everything you say.

 

[DPLongo22]

Pre-Deeming I would agree. Maybe a few of the biggest vendors had a little data as they researched flavors, additives, ph, etc but for the most part it was mix it all up and be careful about the nic %.

My comment is "present day" post deeming. The big guys who intend to file PMTAs now have data on thermal degradation for VG/PG and the particular flavors and additives they intend to use, etc. They also have data on particulate size, pulmonary effects, and much more. They have data on the metal they use for coils, and on the filler they will use for wicking. Especially juices being made for a pod mod by BT and BV. Mainly because they know if they dont have it they wont stand a prayer of getting a PMTA. They are designing these closed systems around the juices they intend to produce, ie what temps the pod mods will be designed to run at internally, what airflow they will be design for, what ml/puff they will be designed for etc..

That is where the whole competitive "trade secret" thing starts coming into play. These guys have data now, but they wont share it because the fewer PMTAs that get approved, the more market share the successful ones will have afterwards. So why publish data that might help some other company succeed in getting a PMTA. They would rather other companies have incomplete or bad data and fail the PMTA requirements, less competition in the marketplace.

Dont think for a second that BT in particular hasnt been collecting this data. They have the resources, and the knowledge of the FDA labyrinth, to know they are going to "HAVE" to have it.

We will start seeing it as the PMTAs get submitted. I wonder if PMTAs fall under the Freedom of Information Act?

Which also implies that the majority of vendors we know now will no longer be around. I hope this isn't the case and am (possibly naively) holding out hope that common sense wins out in the long run.

The war is far from over - vigilance counts.

 

[awsum140]

I'm hoping for common sense, too, but we are talking about a government agency where even logic doesn't apply.

 

[mikepetro]

Which also implies that the majority of vendors we know now will no longer be around. I hope this isn't the case and am (possibly naively) holding out hope that common sense wins out in the long run.

The war is far from over - vigilance counts.

Yes, if the Deeming proceeds as currently written, there will be a huge consolidation of the marketplace. And quite frankly, I believe thats what the FDA wants, fewer players are easier to manage.

 

[DPLongo22]

I'm hoping for common sense, too, but we are talking about a government agency where even logic doesn't apply.

Yeah - I know. As we've already seen, it certainly won't be an easy win.

 

[DPLongo22]

Yes, if the Deeming proceeds as currently written, there will be a huge consolidation of the marketplace. And quite frankly, I believe thats whats what the FDA wants, fewer players are easier to manage.

I agree but winds of change are blowing, and hope still exists.

 

[440BB]

Yes, if the Deeming proceeds as currently written, there will be a huge consolidation of the marketplace. And quite frankly, I believe thats what the FDA wants, fewer players are easier to manage.

Fewer payers are easier to manage. FTFY

 

[Bob Chill]

Haven't been around the forum much and this thread has gotten MASSIVE. If someone would be kind enough to give me the skinny....lol

I vape 60/40 vg/pg unflavored 75% of the time using a 1.2ohm a1 kanthal @ 10.5W. Am I going to die?

The only flavored vapes I do nowadays are simple hangsen tobaccos and no other additives. I've been in the KISS train for over a year.

 

[DPLongo22]

Haven't been around the forum much and this thread has gotten MASSIVE. If someone would be kind enough to give me the skinny....lol

I vape 60/40 vg/pg unflavored 75% of the time using a 1.2ohm a1 kanthal @ 10.5W. Am I going to die?

The only flavored vapes I do nowadays are simple hangsen tobaccos and no other additives. I've been in the KISS train for over a year.

(psst - I think you're fine, but I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night)

 

[Bigbob2322]

(psst - I think you're fine, but I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night)

Your killing me DP.

 

[mikepetro]

Haven't been around the forum much and this thread has gotten MASSIVE. If someone would be kind enough to give me the skinny....lol

I vape 60/40 vg/pg unflavored 75% of the time using a 1.2ohm a1 kanthal @ 10.5W. Am I going to die?

The only flavored vapes I do nowadays are simple hangsen tobaccos and no other additives. I've been in the KISS train for over a year.

Are you going to die - YES!

At some point we all do , but it probably wont be from vaping.

1.2ohm kanthal at 10.5 watts doesnt tell us enough though. Remember, it is all about what "temperature" you vape at, and there are about 18 different variables that affect temperature. What atty are you using? What kind of wick? Is it a stock cartridge, or a DIY? What is your vape style, MTL, DTL, chain?

The boiling point of your juice is about 413f, so if you are keeping your temp that low you should not be seeing thermal degradation.

Start with my blog posts (in my sig) for more concise info.

 

[Bob Chill]

Are you going to die - YES!

At some point we all do , but it probably wont be from vaping.

1.2ohm kanthal at 10.5 watts does tell us enough though. Remember, it is all about what "temperature" you vape at, and there are about 18 different variables that affect temperature. What atty are you using? What kind of wick? Is it a stock cartridge, or a DIY? What is your vape style, MTL, DTL, chain?

The boiling point of your juice is about 413f, so if you are keeping your temp that low you should not be seeing thermal degradation.

Start with my blog posts (in my sig) for more concise info.

MTL and sometime hybrid mtl/dtl. No big pulls or chain vaping. I use organic cotton wicks in kayfun style tanks.

I wrap my own coils (2.5mm micros). My wicks never burn. They usually last 4-7 days per re-wick (unflavored juice is super easy on wicks). I use that as a gauge. I prefer a cool vape in general. My general thoughts are that if my wicks never burn then my temp is low enough to not give a crap.

 

[mikepetro]

MTL and sometime hybrid mtl/dtl. No big pulls or chain vaping. I use organic cotton wicks in kayfun style tanks.

I wrap my own coils (2.5mm micros). My wicks never burn. They usually last 4-7 days per re-wick (unflavored juice is super easy on wicks). I use that as a gauge. I prefer a cool vape in general. My general thoughts are that if my wicks never burn then my temp is low enough to not give a crap.

A wet cotton wick can handle temps higher than the dry burn test, so I am not sure if that logic is infallible.

Unless you are using very fine gauge kanthal, 30awg or finer, my gut tells me you are ok. The only way to know for sure though is to measure it.

If you want, build one up and send it to me, include $7 for return postage, and I will measure it for you.

 

[DPLongo22]

Are you going to die - YES!

At some point we all do , but it probably wont be from vaping.

Valid points!!!

 

[Eskie]

Mike, I don't know if you have enough of a data sample to extract this, but while there are 18 variables to affect the temperature, some are obviously have a greater impact than others. I think the current to the coil is one of the predominant factors, but then among all the others I would inclined to think airflow is a major determinant as well, given its ability to cool the coil off. I'm curious if there is enough information available to rank, or at least group variables by importance, rather than simply this is a variable that has a large or small effect to judge if it's significant to spend time on adjusting in our day to day vape lives.

 

[mikepetro]

The only way I know to how to do that definitively would be like what I am doing now, change one variable at a time and measure, while keeping all else equal. So far the only variable I have been changing has been the power.

Also, the "weight" of any given variable has a lot to do with the "style" that someone vapes. If you like a tight MTL draw then airflow is probably not your solution.

Just going by the seat of my pants I would say this:

1. A well designed atty is probably the #1 thing in my book. Theres not much you can do to overcome a poorly designed atty.
   
2. A fully saturated, but not flooded, wick at all times. Part of this would include the wick "Filler". The wrong filler (think silica) might not wick well enough.
3. Airflow is a biggie, but it is also very subject to user preference. The more airflow the better though. For example, I found that DTL hits are 50-100f cooler than MTL hits due to the increased airflow. However, I am not about to "recommend" switching from MTL to DTL because my gut tells me that this style has its own set of unique consequences.
4. Thinner wire is more prone to overheating faster. Higher mass coils heat slower in VV and VW mode assuming no preheat.
5. The juices boiling point. The lower the better. Again, this is VERY subjective in terms of user preference though.

Anyway, thats my Seat-o-Pants ranking of the top 5.

ETA: The above was from a non-TC POV. Switching to TC mod takes care of the temp part, you just have to adapt the other variables to achieve a satisfying vape.