25 states have banned e-cigarette sales to minors despite opposition by CTFK, ACS, AHA, ALA
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That's a good way to put it.
Yeah... It would answer a Question that I have asked myself Most of my Life. But I would rather wait for the Answer for Awhile.
It could Also answer the Question for a persons Kids, or maybe Grandkids, if they happen to Stumble onto a Bottle of e-liquid and think it looks like some Nice to Drink cause people call it "juice".
Woops... that was really dumb of me. You're right.
I still don't see kids downing a 15ml bottle of e-liquid. If that is our concern about this matter, then we need to start being concerned about everyday products that they can legally purchase in any corner mart or grocery store.
But this is why it would be nice to have a source of regulation for these products. To ensure things like child-proof locks. In the case of teens, well my argument about far worse abusable substances stands.
By the way, even if they ingest 180mg of nicotine, it likely won't be absorbed at lethal levels. When you smoke a cigarette with 8-20mg of nic, about 1mg actually gets absorbed. Ingestion works differently. Our stomachs absorb nicotine very poorly because the nature of our gastric fluid (low ph). It's actually absorbed readily through our mouths though and small intestines (if it gets that far). Again, swallowing even a relatively small amount of nicotine is going to induce vomiting so a lot of it will be expelled from that.
But yea, no one is arguing that kids should be able to get nicotine. But what about vaping the 0nic stuff? What exactly is the big deal about that?
I still don't see kids downing a 15ml bottle of e-liquid. If that is our concern about this matter, then we need to start being concerned about everyday products that they can legally purchase in any corner mart or grocery store.
But this is why it would be nice to have a source of regulation for these products. To ensure things like child-proof locks. In the case of teens, well my argument about far worse abusable substances stands.
By the way, even if they ingest 180mg of nicotine, it likely won't be absorbed at lethal levels. When you smoke a cigarette with 8-20mg of nic, about 1mg actually gets absorbed. Ingestion works differently. Our stomachs absorb nicotine very poorly because the nature of our gastric fluid (low ph). It's actually absorbed readily through our mouths though and small intestines (if it gets that far). Again, swallowing even a relatively small amount of nicotine is going to induce vomiting so a lot of it will be expelled from that.
But yea, no one is arguing that kids should be able to get nicotine. But what about vaping the 0nic stuff? What exactly is the big deal about that?
You know I can replace the "e-liquid" part of your comment with a million other things and still have it be accurate right?
And oh boy, talk about religion has started. This should be fun...
Please Stop while you are Behind. Nicotine is Absorbed Extremely Rapidly and Extremely Efficiently thru Body Tissue.
And Vomiting is Great, if you Can Vomit. And if your Throat and Esophagus are not Chemically Constricted. And you are not Convulsing at the Time.
Go right Ahead.
But it Doesn't Diminish the Fact that the 15ml Bottle of 12mg e-Liquid you use to Fill your Favorite Clearo or Tank is Much More Hazardous than I think you Perceive it is.
You must be talking about very young children, if you think the majority of those under 18 don't know about nicotine. Do you think teens actually drink energy drinks for the flavors, or to get a caffeine buzz? When I discovered Jolt cola when I was 16, or so, It was all about drinking enough to get a caffeine buzz. When I started smoking at 16, I got the highest strength available- for the nicotine buzz.
Who said anything about e-nic being banned? It won't be. If a vendor only sold 0mg, they'd be out of business pretty soon. Pretty sure most people vape for the nicotine.
You have studies showing the effects of nicotine on children?
Wow, someone is getting snot nosed now. I already admitted my mistake about total nicotine count. But my point about ingestion is correct no matter how much you think it isn't. It's not absorbed efficiently enough in the stomach. It's not in the other parts of your body like the mouth long enough to have such high levels absorbed. Argue all you want with your wiki links.
Metabolism and Disposition Kinetics of Nicotine
Just because I don't agree with you it doesn't give you the right to shove your assumptions about me into this debate. I know nicotine is hazardous. Pure nicotine in particular is a great danger to us just from the fumes alone.
The problem we're having here is that you perceive nicotine juice consumption to be more dangerous than I think it is. I include the other variables involved with ingesting nicotine from the unlikelyhood of a teen downing a 15ml bottle of e-liquid and the fact that the stomach just practically doesn't absorb the stuff along with the vomiting that will surely ensure expelling most of it back out.
Wow, you misunderstood my comments greatly.
I am not saying teens don't know about nicotine. I'm talking about the teens who aren't smokers that want to vape. Since they aren't smokers, they do not know what the EFFECTS of nicotine are so why would you assume that they would want a nicotine juice rather than a 0 nic one?
This thread had comments about age restrictions being forced on vaping products. I was asking why is there a need to put a restriction on ALL vaping products when there are 0 nic juices available.
When you started smoking, you had no choice but to get the nicotine. There are no such thing as 0 nicotine cigarettes... okay there are some nowadays, but even then it's still exceedingly rare to come across. With vaping, there is a choice. But by restricting all vaping products including the 0 nic stuff, the kid that is determined to try vaping will now, more likely than not, vape with a juice with nicotine. You highlighted the reason why. Nicotine juices are the majority so that's what the kid who wants to vape will likely use. But that same kid would vape with 0 nic if it were legal for them to purchase it. After all, it would be much easier for them to obtain since it's legal and all.
You zoid are hardcore on the other side of this debate to the point where you guys are misconstruing my argument and turning it a bit personal. Let's stop this shall we? Agree to disagree.
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I just don't see teenagers trying vaping for reasons other than to see what it is about, get a buzz, or stealth 'smoke.' I just don't think any of those reasons would involve 0 nic. What's the point? If given the choice, how many teens would choose near beer over real beer? When I was 16, I was invincible. That meant smoking Camel unfiltered, drinking beer or liquor at parties and 'dating' as many young ladies as I possibly could. All of those choices involved risk and none would have been as enjoyable if risk weren't involved. My guess is teens who vape get the highest nic they can.
I agree with you. If nic juice was legal for them to obtain, the surely would go for that. But if that's restricted and 0 nic isn't, I think they'll readily choose that.
Again, I can't draw parallels between nicotine and other recreational drugs. Kids see people drinking, and for the it's part, everyone is having a blast while drunk. That's a mighty enticing substance to try now. They see people taking X and everyone is raving and talking about how good it feels. That's enticing.
With smoking, you don't see people having a nicotine buzz or raving about how awesome it feels. Smoking is viewed as cool. The act of it screams "look at me, I'm a cool cat". At least to the kids. When I was a kid, smoking was all about image and that's what drew me in. It had nothing to do with nicotine... well at least until I got addicted to it after the fact lol. I also happened to get addicted to the fun in blowing clouds. It's still with me to this day (reference my avatar).
I honestly think vaping would be about the image. Perhaps the wonderful flavor options would draw them in too. A teen sees that they can vape vanilla custard? I mean even us adults get all giddy for that. Look at the explosion in popularity of hookah lounges. These kids aren't there for a high. They are doing tricks with the huge clouds from it.
To clarify, I'm not against putting an age restriction on nicotine products. I just wonder f we are doing more damage tha good by restricting the 0 nic stuff too. Obviously, we do want some sort of quality control though and definitely more definitive studies on vaping PG/VG.
Again, I can't draw parallels between nicotine and other recreational drugs. Kids see people drinking, and for the it's part, everyone is having a blast while drunk. That's a mighty enticing substance to try now. They see people taking X and everyone is raving and talking about how good it feels. That's enticing.
With smoking, you don't see people having a nicotine buzz or raving about how awesome it feels. Smoking is viewed as cool. The act of it screams "look at me, I'm a cool cat". At least to the kids. When I was a kid, smoking was all about image and that's what drew me in. It had nothing to do with nicotine... well at least until I got addicted to it after the fact lol. I also happened to get addicted to the fun in blowing clouds. It's still with me to this day (reference my avatar).
I honestly think vaping would be about the image. Perhaps the wonderful flavor options would draw them in too. A teen sees that they can vape vanilla custard? I mean even us adults get all giddy for that. Look at the explosion in popularity of hookah lounges. These kids aren't there for a high. They are doing tricks with the huge clouds from it.
To clarify, I'm not against putting an age restriction on nicotine products. I just wonder f we are doing more damage tha good by restricting the 0 nic stuff too. Obviously, we do want some sort of quality control though and definitely more definitive studies on vaping PG/VG.
All a liberal do-gooder politician has to see is a teen blowing huge clouds of vanilla custard for them to do everything in their power to ban e-nic, whether it be 0nic or regular. Flavors, especially, would be the first to go. Teens vaping anything is bad for vaping. The vast majority of the population doesn't want to see teens mimic smoking.
Yea I alluded to that in my first post. The world is not ready for kids vaping even if it were proven 100% safe tomorrow. The image of them smoking elicits strong negativity.
Though admittedly, I wouldn't want my own kids to vape before they are 18, I have a rational side that makes me wonder... exactly what is wrong if they did vape at say, age 13 if vaping was proven, beyond a reasonable doubt, to be safe? Speaking of 0 nicotine of course.
The answer is nothing. There's nothing wrong with it in that scenario. At that point, the only reason I'd be against it is only because it resembles smoking. Oh, I'd also be worried about what other people think as well and I'm sure it's something that child services would visit me for.
I know it's hard to let go of that stigma, but you have to realize that even us vapers are trying to reverse the negativity towards it. Approaching this hypothetical kids vaping scenario with rationality tells me that there would be absolutely nothing wrong with them vaping 0 nicotine juices. In fact, even vaping low levels of nicotine would be safe relative to other widely available substances.
Rest assured though, when my kids grow up and they somehow manage to pick up an addiction to analogs, I'm going to introduce them to vaping myself. I know it's safer and would rather have them vape than sneak analogs behind my back. I was a bad seed growing up and there was absolutely nothing my parents could do about my ability to obtain substances. Maybe if they had safer alternatives to offer me, I wouldn't have been a smoker of analogs or other things...
The answer is nothing. There's nothing wrong with it in that scenario. At that point, the only reason I'd be against it is only because it resembles smoking. Oh, I'd also be worried about what other people think as well and I'm sure it's something that child services would visit me for.
I know it's hard to let go of that stigma, but you have to realize that even us vapers are trying to reverse the negativity towards it. Approaching this hypothetical kids vaping scenario with rationality tells me that there would be absolutely nothing wrong with them vaping 0 nicotine juices. In fact, even vaping low levels of nicotine would be safe relative to other widely available substances.
Rest assured though, when my kids grow up and they somehow manage to pick up an addiction to analogs, I'm going to introduce them to vaping myself. I know it's safer and would rather have them vape than sneak analogs behind my back. I was a bad seed growing up and there was absolutely nothing my parents could do about my ability to obtain substances. Maybe if they had safer alternatives to offer me, I wouldn't have been a smoker of analogs or other things...
It has nothing to do with you personally.
I'm just have a Hard Time taking Medical Advise seriously from Anyone who Didn't Know how much Nicotine is in a Bottle of e-Liquid. Especially when the Downside is Serious Injury or Death.
If you don't like the LD50 that is on Wiki, by all means, go out and look up and see if it is Correct. Then do the Math with the LD50 you want and come back and tell Me how much Nicotine would Poison a 80kg Adult Male, a 60kg Adult Female or a 20kg Child.
BTW - You do understand that Death is not the Only Possible Outcome of Ingestion a poisonous substance? Just because it doesn't kill you Doesn't Mean that it couldn't cause Liver or Kidney Damage. Right?
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Butting in for a moment.
Parents, for the first time in history, have an opportunity to take control of their preTeen's curiosity. With zero nicotine cigalikes laying on the table instead of a pack of smokes. Pre planning for that eventual curiosity attack. Kids get bored, keeping them addicted free until they are bored so they can freely move on to other curiosities is priceless. And never possible before now.
The teens are actually quitting smoking by switching over, and fighting 3 sets of bullies. Their peers who laugh at them for smoking fake cigs instead of marlboros, their political leaders who demand their cig tax money, and the vapers who are terrified that the powers that be will use them against us.
Honestly Educating the public about their pros and cons is in everybody's best interest, especially the minors who can be saved from a lifetime of addiction to cigarettes.
Nic can be dangerous, yes, and needs to be warning labels on every pkg, every bottle. I believe most vendors are doing this, and we need to get on the backs of those who don't. Especially the DIY folk.
Parents, for the first time in history, have an opportunity to take control of their preTeen's curiosity. With zero nicotine cigalikes laying on the table instead of a pack of smokes. Pre planning for that eventual curiosity attack. Kids get bored, keeping them addicted free until they are bored so they can freely move on to other curiosities is priceless. And never possible before now.
The teens are actually quitting smoking by switching over, and fighting 3 sets of bullies. Their peers who laugh at them for smoking fake cigs instead of marlboros, their political leaders who demand their cig tax money, and the vapers who are terrified that the powers that be will use them against us.
Honestly Educating the public about their pros and cons is in everybody's best interest, especially the minors who can be saved from a lifetime of addiction to cigarettes.
Nic can be dangerous, yes, and needs to be warning labels on every pkg, every bottle. I believe most vendors are doing this, and we need to get on the backs of those who don't. Especially the DIY folk.
No, it's not that I didn't know. It was a stupid oversight. A mistake. Forgetting that the count doesn't mean total in the bottle, but the amount per "serving". And I fully admitted to my mistake.
You don't have to take medical advice from me. Not until I complete this P.A. thing at least...
And I never said I didn't like your wiki. I called you out on that because your wiki link doesn't look at the entire picture. Consider the link about how nicotine is absorbed that I posted a supplement to your wiki. The link I provided is stone cold fact no matter how much you want to disagree with it. Ingesting nicotine is unlikely to kill you unless it's pure or in a very, very high quantity and that's only if your body even absorbs high levels of it.
I know there are other side effects. We weren't talking about that, though I already mentioned some like vomiting and a sure shot ticket to the ER.
This is what happens when you are too adamant about your position. You start to posit your own assumptions on the opposition's stance. You and I sit on the same side of the fence in terms of providing nicotine access to children. Of course I don't want that. However, you and I have reached this path by taking very different roads. When people make claims that aren't supported, I'm going to counter it.
This whole thing started with people claiming that nicotine ingestion will kill people. That is unlikely in the case of vaping juice and I'm not saying that because I think nicotine is completely safe. I've mentioned this in another thread... people often have a problem recognizing variables. Don't fall into the trap of a false dichotomy. There are more than two options here. It's not just:
1) Kid drinks nicotine and survives
or
2) Kid drinks nicotine and dies
I mentioned so many variables to you and yet you keep coming back at me with nothing but assumptions about my stance. Hopefully I'm being more clear here about my position.
Again, I don't disagree with your wiki link. I disagree that it's enough to back your claims up. The LD50 is obviously a tested study. But those numbers represent the amount ABSORBED. Drinking a 180mg of diluted nicotine doesn't automatically mean that the person absorbed 180mg of nicotine. They absorbed FAR LESS than what they ingest unless of course it stayed in their system and got digested since the small intestine does absorb nicotine very well.
The fact is it's easier to ban all ejuice by minors then put millions into equipment to test ejuice for police
I think this is where you might do a little Research to see just how Easily the Body Absorbs Nicotine thru Body Tissue. All Body Tissue. If you Swallow an e-Liquid, the Nicotine is going to be Absorbed by Any Tissue that the e-Liquid comes in Contact with.
You are Correct, the LD50 I referenced is for Absorbed Nicotine. Not Total Nicotine Ingested. The Problem is that Swallowing Nicotine is a Very Efficient way to Absorb Nicotine.
And since the LD50 for an 80kg Adult Male is about 50% or Less of the Amount of Nicotine in a 15ml Bottle of 12mg, it seems like we are getting down to a Point where there is a Small Margin to work with.
Of course, a 60kg Female swallow 15ml of 28mg is a Much worse Situation.
And a 20kg Child is only going to need Absorb a Very Small amount of the 420mg in that 15ml bottle of 28mg e-Liquid. A 5% absorption Rate would be Enough to Achieve the LD50 of 1mg/kg for that Unfortunate Child.
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