Establishments Banning E-Cigs - 2 reasons

[wheezal]

Hm.. somebody needs to fund studies. They do not just happen out of thin air.

my studies happen out of thin air...mostly because i strap a plastic bag onto my head before doing anything requiring lots of brain power like calculus, orbital mechanical simulations, or watching Glee.

but the conclusions i've come too! oh my! if only i could remember what they were! they would astound you! also, i forget my name from time to time.

 

[SmellYaLaterCigs]

Private establishments are free to ban vaping if they want. It's not discrimination

 

[Anjaffm]

if we restrict our arguments to things we can solidly demonstrate to be true, we are more credible, and more politically potent.

Or not.
See the point I made above about studies and evidence simply being ignored. Waved away.
And a big stream of lies, untruths, fabrications, horse manure, bovine excrement being spread all over the media.
I am from Germany. I know. It is happening all the time in my country. As we speak.

And no.. do not start about "conspiracy". It is a business. Our opponents get paid money for saying what they say. For doing what they do. Does a dancing bear wonder about what dance he is doing? Nope - as long as he gets fed. Same story.

 

[JulesXsmokr]

SmellYa - no one is saying it is..
if our Fed. and State Gov'ts. ban it, it is discrimination then...

 

[DC2]

And by the way, Generic Mutant, I don't know if you...

--Believe in the righteousness of government
--Just like to play Devil's advocate
--Really just want to reduce everything to pure science
--Are really an ANTZ plant

But I will definitely respect and applaud your willingness to challenge.
It is only by having challenges that we are afforded the opportunity to present information that could sway the uninformed.

Much of what has been provided in this thread is unknown to the general public, and also to many vapers who frequent this forum.

 

[AttyPops]

Private establishments are free to ban vaping if they want. It's not discrimination

True. We're not really arguing about that (Except maybe for the outdoor part...like a college campus). It's generally agreed here (my observation by reading the thread) that most people would leave it up to the business owners. Alas, many businesses are REQUIRED to ban it due to local/state ordinances.

 

[DC2]

my studies happen out of thin air...mostly because i strap a plastic bag onto my head before doing anything requiring lots of brain power like calculus, orbital mechanical simulations, or watching Glee.

but the conclusions i've come too! oh my! if only i could remember what they were! they would astound you! also, i forget my name from time to time.

That sounds like when me when I was taking philosophy courses to satisfy my minor in philosophy.
And when I was smoking various things that are now legal in many places.

I still have a lot of the notes I wrote to myself on those long evenings.
And some of them appear to be gibberish, while some appear to show the signs of genius.

 

[DC2]

Does a dancing bear wonder about what dance he is doing? Nope - as long as he gets fed. Same story.

Love that....

 

[Anjaffm]

And by the way, Generic Mutant, I don't know if you...

--Believe in the righteousness of government
--Just like to play Devil's advocate
--Really just want to reduce everything to pure science
--Are really an ANTZ plant

But I will definitely respect and applaud your willingness to challenge.
It is only by having challenges that we are afforded the opportunity to present information that could sway the uninformed.

Much of what has been provided in this thread is unknown to the general public, and also to many vapers who frequent this forum.

I second that
I have read and bookmarked a lot of things from this thread.
And I thank those nice people who have provided them.

And no, I am not gonna offer you an Oreo again. They are addictive, you know

 

[Orb Skewer]

Just my own humble observation here, and a little curveball, what I've seen over the last few months, in particular the comments from 'pro-vapers' on articles which are anti vaping/nicotine/smoking etc is starting to match the 'hysteria' and 'fever-pitch' of the ANTI's.

My own Grandmother used to recite 'A game of chess requires 2 players-one player walks away and the game stops'
not until late adulthood did I understand old grannies rambling lesson.

And I will sum it up thus: from a comment I made in another thread a while back-"just post up a link to ECF and leave it at that"

4 'types' will read these articles
1 ANTZ
2 Vapers
3 curious smokers
4 Health Industry careerists

And no one else !

So, we have 2,3 and 4 to impress here, if they are curious they will find the truth (if they haven't already), the ANTI's will writhe and struggle to keep themselves in a salary.

 

[wheezal]

4 'types' will read these articles
1 ANTZ
2 Vapers
3 curious smokers
4 Health Industry careerists

And no one else !

ummm..where do i fit in there? or the gerbil that runs in the wheel inside my head? i'm pretty sure there should be moar categrie...catagorphie...katastrophes....there should be moar options then just whatever number you have listed that i cant count too.

 

[DC2]

ummm..where do i fit in there?

Honestly, I've been wondering that myself.


And I mean that in a good way.
I think.

 

[Orb Skewer]

ummm..where do i fit in there? or the gerbil that runs in the wheel inside my head? i'm pretty sure there should be moar categrie...catagorphie...katastrophes....there should be moar options then just whatever number you have listed that i cant count too.

Ok, my mistake


5 Vapin on the torlet

 

[kristin]

I just find it *baffling* that anybody arguing to promote vaping would bring up or defend something like E&K. They're hacks, and they make us look like hacks.

I'm honestly not being snarky here, but I find it baffling that someone can see the unquestionable lies and propaganda being spewed out by the ANTZ about e-cigarettes (it's obviously not their first rodeo) and still give them the benefit of the doubt and fight to find evidence to support their version of the "truth."

The ANTZ want us to believe that E&K are "hacks." (Again - if they are hacks, then why did the ACS give them funding in 2003 for a SHS study in the first place??) They also want us to believe that Burstyn, Phillips, Siegel, Rodu, Laugesen, and Farsalinos are hacks and will do anything to discredit them. (Which is why we purposely chose Dr. Burstyn to give the CASAA research grant to - he has absolutely no ties to any industry involved with e-cigs, because we know the ANTZ tactics based on their treatment of people like E&K.)

I sometimes think about leaving CASAA just so I can give my opinion without being accused of supposedly harming the cause. CASAA doesn't call out the ANTZ over the SHS studies and likely never will. But - as I've said numerous times in this thread - it benefits the cause for vapers in the community to at least hear the rest of the story about the ANTZ history and truly understand what we are up against. Even if they chose to believe the ANTZ sources and not mine, at least I know they are getting more than one side of it and can then choose for themselves. If no one ever tells them the other version of "the truth," they are only getting the ANTZ side. If nothing else, maybe they will rethink what they always assumed to be true about tobacco and stop themselves from turning themselves into vaping pseudo-ANTZ.

 

[Anjaffm]

kristin, you have a wonderful way of putting things
Thank you!

And G** save us from vaping pseudo-ANTZ
To my mind, that would be like me having a sex-change and then start ranting that women are inferior

 

[Dave_in_OK]

I'm honestly not being snarky here, but I find it baffling that someone can see the unquestionable lies and propaganda being spewed out by the ANTZ about e-cigarettes (it's obviously not their first rodeo) and still give them the benefit of the doubt and fight to find evidence to support their version of the "truth."

I wish I could give you 1000 likes

 

[Uma]

I just believe we need to resort to the same tactics our opponents are using !!!!
You say there is no proof of vapor being harmless, and "that" is what all the opponents are saying.
We have to make them bear the proof of burden that it is harmful !
Mean time we should all say that it is "harmless" and not fret about the "mays" and the "if's"
It something ever comes up about vaping we will be the first to know, and can take the situation good or bad from there.
Your not going to win a fight from being on the bottom..

Is there any proof that not vaping is harmless?

I wish we we could take out huge adds for a year... "Calling all folded business owners since 1990 smoking bans" and form a coalition of business owners to fight to take back our towns from over regulation. The ones in business today kiss ...., so the town councils don't sick their hale hounds on them.

 

[Jman8]

I've removed the refs and page numbers, but done nothing to deliberately alter the meaning.

Tobacco Litigation Documents | UCSF Library

You're suggesting my sources are biased? Does this scan like the C.V. of an "innocent victim of an ANTZ smear campaign" to you? Can we perhaps drop that, and talk about science instead?

How about this;

The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: A Report of the Surgeon General | SurgeonGeneral.gov

Chapter 2 is pretty grim reading, 7 and 8 are most relevant to the central claims we're disputing.

The Health Consequences of Involuntary Exposure to Tobacco Smoke: A Report of the Surgeon General | SurgeonGeneral.gov

Links I provided earlier in this thread question/refute most, if not all, items linked in this post.

 

[LDS714]

Links I provided earlier in this thread question/refute most, if not all, items linked in this post.

Yeah, but who has time to read opinions contrary to common knowledge? You might have to like, think about them, and stuff...

 

[EddardinWinter]

I'm honestly not being snarky here, but I find it baffling that someone can see the unquestionable lies and propaganda being spewed out by the ANTZ about e-cigarettes (it's obviously not their first rodeo) and still give them the benefit of the doubt and fight to find evidence to support their version of the "truth."

The ANTZ want us to believe that E&K are "hacks." (Again - if they are hacks, then why did the ACS give them funding in 2003 for a SHS study in the first place??) They also want us to believe that Burstyn, Phillips, Siegel, Rodu, Laugesen, and Farsalinos are hacks and will do anything to discredit them. (Which is why we purposely chose Dr. Burstyn to give the CASAA research grant to - he has absolutely no ties to any industry involved with e-cigs, because we know the ANTZ tactics based on their treatment of people like E&K.)

I sometimes think about leaving CASAA just so I can give my opinion without being accused of supposedly harming the cause. CASAA doesn't call out the ANTZ over the SHS studies and likely never will. But - as I've said numerous times in this thread - it benefits the cause for vapers in the community to at least hear the rest of the story about the ANTZ history and truly understand what we are up against. Even if they chose to believe the ANTZ sources and not mine, at least I know they are getting more than one side of it and can then choose for themselves. If no one ever tells them the other version of "the truth," they are only getting the ANTZ side. If nothing else, maybe they will rethink what they always assumed to be true about tobacco and stop themselves from turning themselves into vaping pseudo-ANTZ.

I liked your post. But one thing in it startled me....

Please do not leave CASAA. Or at least not until someone with your heart, brains, integrity, drive, and communication skills emerges to replace you. CASAA needs you.

We all need you doing what you have done since I joined ECF and became aware of CASAA. Longer than that, I suppose...



Tapped out