Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP
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"NIOSH has documented diacetyl exposures in investigations where employees worked with flavoring mixtures with < 1% diacetyl by weight resulting in exposures over the REL. One laboratory-based study also identified emissions of diacetyl from natural butter and butter flavor powders, pastes, and liquid products in a laboratory environment. Determinations show that even in the butter flavouring containing the lowest amount of diacetyl in the bulk flavoring (1.01% by weight), heating the flavoring to 37.5°C released vapor concentrations of diacetyl as high as 13.67 ppm. This suggests that even if diacetyl is present in bulk concentrations of <1%, vapor concentrations of diacetyl could greatly exceed the NIOSH REL.
The data presented in this criteria document strongly suggest that diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione are toxic to the respiratory system at very low vapour concentrations.
NIOSH also recommends that mixtures containing diacetyl or 2,3-pentanedione at any concentration that could generate vapors that could exceed the NIOSH REL carry the pictogram, hazard phrase, and signal word for the specific target organ toxicity- single exposure and specific target organ toxicity- repeated exposure classifications until it can be demonstrated that mixtures containing these compounds in concentrations less than the specific cut-off values/concentration limits specified by HCS are not harmful."
The data presented in this criteria document strongly suggest that diacetyl and 2,3-pentanedione are toxic to the respiratory system at very low vapour concentrations.
NIOSH also recommends that mixtures containing diacetyl or 2,3-pentanedione at any concentration that could generate vapors that could exceed the NIOSH REL carry the pictogram, hazard phrase, and signal word for the specific target organ toxicity- single exposure and specific target organ toxicity- repeated exposure classifications until it can be demonstrated that mixtures containing these compounds in concentrations less than the specific cut-off values/concentration limits specified by HCS are not harmful."
So..
Heated Diacetyl at strengths of <1% can greatly exceed the diacetyl limits set out by NIOSH, and they recommend that "any concentration" that could generate vapors higher than the allowed amount carry warnings. IMHO this should apply to any flavour companies that knowingly sell to the vape community.
I know it's only a recommendation from NIOSH, but seeing as Flavor West/Vapor Renu seems to be a vaping company you'd think they'd take the high ride and label accordingly to at least let the customers decide if they want to risk possibly getting irreversible lung damage
Heated Diacetyl at strengths of <1% can greatly exceed the diacetyl limits set out by NIOSH, and they recommend that "any concentration" that could generate vapors higher than the allowed amount carry warnings. IMHO this should apply to any flavour companies that knowingly sell to the vape community.
I know it's only a recommendation from NIOSH, but seeing as Flavor West/Vapor Renu seems to be a vaping company you'd think they'd take the high ride and label accordingly to at least let the customers decide if they want to risk possibly getting irreversible lung damage
They probably changed when they started reducing the amount of flavors available, but CS confirmed that Mt Baker Vapor doesn't use flavor west. For at least a year+. They didn't change the name of juices, simply because they changed suppliers. Hence, the same names, and probable confusion, as to the supplier issue. To find out testing, I would need to go higher, which I don't have access to (such as the president/owner?)
I tend to believe him, unless someone can prove otherwise that flavor west is supplying mt baker vapor.
I asked on the FW page if people were aware of what was happening. They were shocked and surprised. One of the posters said she posted to their fb. I'm glad she did.
I would like to thank everyone on this thread for taking the time to decipher and obtain all this information, especially for those who have translated the science-y info into words I can comprehend.
I am thoroughly disgusted by FW's lack of concern for their customers, but I am thankful for the reminder to once again question everything.
Edit: grammar whoops
I am thoroughly disgusted by FW's lack of concern for their customers, but I am thankful for the reminder to once again question everything.
Edit: grammar whoops
I believe them. Let's just say I heard it through the grapevine a few weeks ago that MBV moved away from F.W awhile back. I was never told that they didn't sell any juices containing F.W flavours, but I did find out that they changed the flavours in their most popular blends to not include F.W. I'd imagine if they changed the ingredients of their most popular juices then they'd have no qualms changing the ingredients of any others.
Do you have a link to that? We'd like to review it and bookmark it.
13.67ppm = 13,670ppb...and the REL (Recommended Exposure Limit) is 8-25 ppb.
And when/if we find how to convert 'diacetyl levels in juice' to 'diacetyl levels in vapor', we must remember that the NIOSH recommendations are for inhaling 'normal vapor' in a room via normal breathing (nose/mouth breathing), which is substantially different that inhaling heated vapor directly into our lungs). I mean, these factory workers aren't walking around in a room full of 'heated mist vapor', with a tube bypassing their nose going directly into their mouth.
--Vapor Renu owns Flavor West. Vapure Renu is a manufacturing company selling to vapers. So, this is no longer 'anything about' a company that makes "food flavorings" and (eyeroll) accidentally sells liquids laced with diacetyl/similar to vapers unknowingly. They know they are selling to vapers; they intend to sell to vapers; and there is solid evidence their liquids contain VERY large amounts of diacetyl/similar.
--IF they do manufacture these flavors themselves (and they must, because they keep talking about having a 'raw material supplier'). then they already KNOW what chemicals they order & use in their flavor-liquids! They've known what 'raw materials' they use in their flavor-liquids since the very first bottle they ever made!
--If they order these chemicals for use in manufacturing from a 'raw material supplier', then they have a "mixing lab"...and in their mixing lab is THE EXACT RECIPE for EVERY liquid they make.
--VR/FW does NOT have to contact a 'raw material supplier' to find out what is in their own flavor-liquids! Besides, no 'raw material supplier' can tell anyone what is in the flavor-liquids that VR/FW manufacturers (anymore than a grocery store can tell anyone what is in one of their buyers' homemade cookies). The only way the exact ingredients (and percentages thereof) in a flavor-liquid from VR/FW can be known is if:
VR/FW does/did not "need" information from their 'raw material supplier' to change, disclose or validate ANYTHING they do period.
--A typical MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) is NOT required to reveal all specific ingredients. They are 'safety sheets' and the only data required to be on them is data concerning the safe handling of the product in question. Only certain chemicals that exceed certain safety limits for handling are required. So if diacetyl is only required to be listed when the content reaches 1%, then VR/FW can include diacetyl in any flavor-liquid at .999% without revealing it on an MSDS.
VR/FW is blowing a LOT of vapor up everyone's ........and it ain't unflavored!
--IF they do manufacture these flavors themselves (and they must, because they keep talking about having a 'raw material supplier'). then they already KNOW what chemicals they order & use in their flavor-liquids! They've known what 'raw materials' they use in their flavor-liquids since the very first bottle they ever made!
--If they order these chemicals for use in manufacturing from a 'raw material supplier', then they have a "mixing lab"...and in their mixing lab is THE EXACT RECIPE for EVERY liquid they make.
--VR/FW does NOT have to contact a 'raw material supplier' to find out what is in their own flavor-liquids! Besides, no 'raw material supplier' can tell anyone what is in the flavor-liquids that VR/FW manufacturers (anymore than a grocery store can tell anyone what is in one of their buyers' homemade cookies). The only way the exact ingredients (and percentages thereof) in a flavor-liquid from VR/FW can be known is if:
1. VR/FW reveals that information from their files (again, that IS information that they already have - and have had since the very first day they mixed the flavor-liquid)
2. The liquids are tested (like they have been already)
The only thing a "raw material supplier" can provide is records of what chemicals were ordered...not what someone did with them. 2. The liquids are tested (like they have been already)
VR/FW does/did not "need" information from their 'raw material supplier' to change, disclose or validate ANYTHING they do period.
--A typical MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) is NOT required to reveal all specific ingredients. They are 'safety sheets' and the only data required to be on them is data concerning the safe handling of the product in question. Only certain chemicals that exceed certain safety limits for handling are required. So if diacetyl is only required to be listed when the content reaches 1%, then VR/FW can include diacetyl in any flavor-liquid at .999% without revealing it on an MSDS.
VR/FW is blowing a LOT of vapor up everyone's ........and it ain't unflavored!
I appreciate your passion and tenacity about this issue, but I have some reasonable doubt about the above sentiment.
What limited research that I did on this subject, in the past, seemed to indicate that those raw materials may not be pure, single chemicals. It would seem that they are often cocktails of chemicals.
I could not find any concrete evidence of either scenario, though. I have since seen more evidence suggesting that there is a *very* small number of places in the world that sell the raw ingredients that other manufacturers use for their products in the food flavoring industry, and that they were often carefully engineered mixes of different chemicals, even at the top of the chain. That was on TV, in a short documentary/promotion of food flavorings.
This is all from memory, and may be incorrect, as I did not save any references to review.
If the secrecy of ingredients does go to the top of the chain, though, that's a vexing problem.
Could they not just send their flavours to a lab to be tested like those Canadian vendors did? The cost per sample that ECTA pays is roughly $200, they probably send in about 15 samples at a time. ECTA said it would probably cost a lot less to just test for acetoin, acetyl and diacetyl (they are testing for many other things in their finished e-juice tests). ECTA also said that the more samples you send in the cheaper it gets.
So let's say it cost $100 a flavour and F.W sent in every single one of their flavours to be tested, it would only cost them $25,000. That has got to be a drop in the bucket for F.W/V.R.
Why wouldn't they just do that? or is that obvious..
FlavourArt tests, and TFA must test, and they're not even totally geared towards the e-cig industry like F.W
I'd think that they may very well consider it, in the future. 
I've been exasperated about this issue for some time. I eventually moved toward vaping unflavored most of the time, as I found it to be preferable, in general, for me.
I've been exasperated about this issue for some time. I eventually moved toward vaping unflavored most of the time, as I found it to be preferable, in general, for me.
'Just so you know, we appreciate logical & respectful challenges to our thinking (and any/all valid information that we may/not have known)! That's the only way our own knowledge base can increase and improve! So we appreciate your 'reasonable doubt' (it's not like we don't have some of our own)...and since we're all striving to get to the baseline-bottom-of-this without assumptions & errors, wethinks posts like yours are not only good, but essential.
Here's a few thoughts that may fit into the equation:
Firstly, wethinks it's safe to assume that the largest percentage of chemicals purchased from suppliers are labeled properly (except in rare/mistake situations)...and what mistakes there are, would be identified fairly quickly due to all the 'checkpoints' along the production line. Example: one barrel that's supposed to be full of diacetyl/similar is mistakenly labeled as cinnamon. Typically, the very first checkpoint in production (just opening the lid of the barrel) is going to alert an experienced mixer to the problem - and on it goes down the production/checkpoint line until the product is bottled and used. Another checkpoint is the end user...after a few complaints, the problem is traced back and identified.
We don't think it's possible that VR/FW has been dealing with 'that type' of a "raw material supplier' mistake for YEARS. FW has always made (for example) the 'most realistic butterscotch' (from hundreds of posts on ECF/internet), and it still is. They're using the same chemicals/formula they've always used (or there would have been a 'collective scream' from the vaping community).
So perhaps their 'raw material supplier' has been slipping/shipping them diacetyl for years, but labeling it 'something else buttery chemical blend'? With no acetyl propionyl? no acetoin? FW's Sarah already told Jonathon there were only 3 flavors with any of the 3 chemicals (in low percentages), but many of us layman can easily taste & smell the dangerous diketones in MANY of their flavors. Our point? ...and we layman are the first to recognize this?
If that's the case, then VR/FW's internal system of checks & balances; regular testing & record keeping is not only pitiful, it's irresponsible and dangerous. And that kind of inconsistency and inadequate testing is not capable of producing a line of flavors that's been consistent for years. Again, the vaping community/users would be all over the inconsistencies...virtually immediately.
So, let's assume the 'raw material supplier' has been slipping FW the mickey (wrong/mislabeled chemicals) - and they've been getting by with it for YEARS. An FDA agent knocks on the door of FW, and says: "There are tests that reveal you're using diacetyl, when you claim you are not, putting the health of thousands of vapers and workers at risk...let's see your purchase orders for the last 4 years. Well, golly-gee...even though it's tasteable, smellable, and test results reveal it - sho-nuf, you've never purchased any. Let's get in touch with the chemical company that's been lying, cheating & scamming you for years, and let them settle it. Whatever they say is 'evidence enough' for us. " ??? puhLEEZ, eh?
Who is the FDA/other authorities going to hold responsible? The same company we hold responsible, and that IS responsible for their labeling & content...VR/FW. They could have tested every chemical & flavor-liquid regularly over the years (as they are likely required to do, and probably have) - or they haven't (or they have, and are lying). And if they haven't (or are lying), they should be shut down immediately & completely.
What it adds up to, to us...is that VR/FW knows, but they ain't telling. C'mon, right? If you were accused of claiming your vaping liquids were diacetyl free, while being handed tests that prove they're not, and you were truly innocent.. just what would you be doing (and how fast would you be doing it)? Right, VR/FW is not doing any of that. A few hundred dollars (or maybe even a few thousand dollars) worth of lab tests on their chemicals & liquids (IF they were innocent) would have cleared their name and erased this issue in less than two or three weeks.
I just looked at One on one flavors, LLC Facebook page. A person asked this question:
Do any of your flavors contain diacetyl or any other of the "bad" custard notes?
This is their reply:
Richard, we do not manufacturer our flavors. We have asked the manufacturer not to make the flavors with such chemicals. They have indicated to us that there are none. Thanks for your interest.
P. S. I figured out how to save screen shots. I am starting a folder to save info. In case anyone needs reference material in the future.
Do any of your flavors contain diacetyl or any other of the "bad" custard notes?
This is their reply:
Richard, we do not manufacturer our flavors. We have asked the manufacturer not to make the flavors with such chemicals. They have indicated to us that there are none. Thanks for your interest.
P. S. I figured out how to save screen shots. I am starting a folder to save info. In case anyone needs reference material in the future.
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