Thanks, that's good news. Look forward to seeing these. Let's hope they are public before the FDA bans flavors.
Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP
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Thanks, that's good news. Look forward to seeing these. Let's hope they are public before the FDA bans flavors.
No problem! I've bought a few samples of their flavors from ecigexpress, since they now stock some of them (although not the entire line-up - and they aren't clearly labeled). If you buy from ECigExpress, you should be able to put a request in with them and they should be able to pull the documents on the flavors they stock. The same for any other vendor.
I tried asking for a full ZIP of all documents, though they stated they would only provide for those that I bought direct from them.
?????
"They confirmed"? As in "they said again what they said before"? or as in, "they provided valid evidence to you of what they've said before"? We've been told "diacetyl/diketone free" before. Sadly & frustratingly, we all know that's FAR from a valid confirmation
Is it possible for buyers/vendors to see the evidence before they buy? If not, why not?
From what we once read on their website, Tino D'Milano (who worked/works for FA) had designed the Tino D'Milano line...we don't recall reading anything about them rebranding actual FA - but the memories could be faulty. And of course, we haven't spoken with anyone.
Which leaves me a bit confused about this (as we can't imagine FA allowing their flavors to be rebranded):
Does your statement mean that Inawera specifically told you "that many of their Tino D'Milano flavors arerebranded FA"? Or does that mean something like "that's how you interpreted what they seemed to mean"?
TIA!
Edit/Oops/forgot:
What kind of "documentation"? A test that shows "<.4mg/mL = not detected" (which is basically worthless for risk levels in the ppb); or a valid test showing a tested "zero amount" of the three offenders?
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sorry for not reading the 47 pages, therefore, my question may seem silly to some
what about extracts? if I only use extracts then I'm good? (as in "diacetyl etc... free?")
what about extracts? if I only use extracts then I'm good? (as in "diacetyl etc... free?")
Nope, sorry. These chemicals are also found in natural foods.
?????
"They confirmed"? As in "they said again what they said before"? or as in, "they provided valid evidence to you of what they've said before"? We've been told "diacetyl/diketone free" before. Sadly & frustratingly, we all know that's FAR from a valid confirmation
Is it possible for buyers/vendors to see the evidence before they buy? If not, why not?
Confirmed via e-mail. I'm not sure why the information is not public, I can't really comment on that. One would think that such information would be available to the public, though they will only provide the information to customers and only on the flavors they purchase. I did follow up and ask why; just waiting to hear back from them
"In grads to Flavor Art, some of the flavours has been introduced in our Tino d’Mila no line: http://inawerashop.com/tino-dmilano-flavours-c-1_13_34.html"
Direct quote from the e-mail, so I would imagine those with the same/similar names are indeed FlavourArt. I am going to follow up to see if they'll let me know which ones specifically as I'd rather stick to their core line-up myself since I know which FA flavors do and do not contain the chemicals.
They label them Quality Certificates / Certificate Documentation, which, from speaking with similar companies that use the same wording, such as Hangsen, they documents should be similar to GC/MS, though I believe they are SGS documents, specific to an overseas company they work with (in Hangsens case).
I've not ordered direct from them as of yet, though I plan to in the next week, so if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll request the documents on the flavors I order and upload a sample of one. Some of the flavors I plan to order are "creamy" (by description), so I'll make it a point to upload one of each - a standard flavor (like strawberry or similar) and a creamy flavor (such as milk chocolate).
We agree there are naturally occuring diketones in natural foods/plants, but (to our knowledge) the only ones that have been proven to cause respiratory compromise & disease are the vapors from the artificial/synthetic ones manufactured in labs for "food flavoring". Of course, we realize that just because the synthetics are proven to be a risk, that doesn't mean naturally-occuring is not a risk. But (again, to our knowledge), we've never heard of anyone developing respiratory compromise from breathing in actual dairy/plant diketones.
I realize there are two very conflicting schools of thought/belief on this issue (naturally occuring vs synthetic) - those that claim that if they appear the same under a microscope, the human body responds to them 'the same' (no difference between natural & synthetic), and those that claim 'the body knows the difference and reacts differently'. And I hope & pray (and beg) this thread doesn't get derailed over this issue.
What we're dealing with (so far, in this thread) are the synthetic, lab-created diacetyl/diketones used in food/vaping "flavorings" that are proven inhalation risks - not the naturally occuring ones in extracts.
I'd like to clarify my thoughts on the matter. I don't think that most companies like Flavor West are actually manufacturing by mixing individually sourced, pure chemicals. That is a difficult and expensive endeavor, that would seem to be above such a company's 'pay grade'. I think that they manufacture blends of other pre-made blends of chemicals from flavor companies that are higher up the chain, such as these:
Flavor & Fragrance Industry - Top 10
Category:Flavor companies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I admit that I could be wrong, but it's hard to say, as secrecy is highly prized in such an industry. If they are using such 'flavors' from bigger companies, then they may not know what, exactly, is in their own flavor blends, as that is proprietary information protected by the business that is supplying them.
I've found a couple of the articles that have intrigued me in the past, about this subject. They both have interesting tidbits about this higher echelon of the industry:
How Flavor Chemists Make Your Food So Addictively Good
The Flavorists: Tweaking tastes and creating cravings - CBS News
It makes perfect sense to me that most smaller flavoring companies probably do not engineer their flavors absolutely from scratch, as that would essentially be reinventing the wheel. They probably source simple flavors from bigger companies who have already done the R&D, and put their own spin on them by blending different ones together. If so, then these 'raw materials' would actually be mixtures of dozens of chemicals, and protected as intellectual property.
They will probably never tell, though, so I suppose that it's our lot to speculate, and poke them with sticks when we get angry, in the hopes that they may spout out a truth, accidentally.
Just to add another nugget of diacetyl-related info, it appears that one of these top flavoring companies had some grief over allegations of poor handling of the huge amounts that they use:
Sensient Technologies - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Ugh.
I just realized (in reviewing this thread), that I totally forgot to say "thank you", and let you know how much I appreciated this info! I agree (of course), that it doesn't absolve FW/VR, but I/we have learned a LOT from those links - and we're so appreciative that you took the time to compile & share them.
THANK YOU!
thanks for bringing me up to speed. I'm fairly new to DIY juices and I'm trying to find good quality flavors that I can buy in "large" (vape wise) quantities and that are, if not "risk free", at least considered "fairly safe"
Currently there are two flavor manufacturer vendors that adequately test, disclose & 'back up their claims' to be free of the 3 most common 'inhalation risk' chemicals (diacetyl, acetoin & acetyl propionyl). That is the E Cigarette line of FlavourArt (not their Kitchen Magic line - which many vaping vendors sell 'along with' the others).
Be sure to check out this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/518022-pure-vapes-has-3ml-flavourart-flavorings.html for a gazillion EASY awesome recipes, along with incredible ideas and information. DIYing with FA flavors is the easiest, quickest, safest, and most inexpensive (because they're so concentrated you use less), to be a fast success DIYing. And FA's tobaccos are stellar!
The other is The Flavor Apprentice - which tests & fully discloses whether or not these chemicals are present in each flavors. Some have them, some do not. You can find that information on their Spec Sheet & Component page (clicking on the word: List on the far right of each flavor will show whether or not the chemicals are present - there are still some that haven't yet been tested/updated).
Between the two, you can create virtually any flavor combination you'd ever desire!
Happy mixing - and safe vaping!
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Confirmed via e-mail.
So they're just repeating what they said before. I'm sorry, but that is NOT "confirmation". Back in this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/534508-flavors-may-contain-diacetyl-there-really-many-4.html
Post #151/JT Inawera is free of all three chemicals (Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl).
Post 152#/we2 Where did you find that Inawera is free of diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl proprionyl?
Post #155/JT I found this out by e-mailing them via their contact form as I too didn't see it on their website
I'm not sure why the information is not public, I can't really comment on that. One would think that such information would be available to the public, though they will only provide the information to customers and only on the flavors they purchase. I did follow up and ask why; just waiting to hear back from them
I can (and will) comment on that (lol) - not making information accessible & available certainly causes them to appear to be "anything but" honest & forthright. We know & recognize the vendors that fully disclose (and their typical responses). And then we have those that don't fully disclose, and their typical responses. "One of these things, doesn't belong here...which one is it?"
Of course, we understand that looking, walking & quacking like a duck doesn't PROVE anything to BE a duck. But it's been noted before by many - if you have the proof, why aren't you HAPPY to share it?!
From the above thread/we2:
We hope & wish that all "claims" of diacetyl/diketone free would be true, but so far that just isn't the pattern we're seeing at all.
"In grads to Flavor Art, some of the flavours has been introduced in our Tino dMila no line: http://inawerashop.com/tino-dmilano-flavours-c-1_13_34.html"
Direct quote from the e-mail, so I would imagine those with the same/similar names are indeed FlavourArt. I am going to follow up to see if they'll let me know which ones specifically as I'd rather stick to their core line-up myself since I know which FA flavors do and do not contain the chemicals.
Hmmm, well, that certainly appears to be 'what you thought'. On the other hand, "some of the flavors", could mean they're buying from FA & mixing with 'some of them'. I thought FA had some kind of a strict "no rebranding thing" to prevent that very 'type of thing' (but I have no idea where I came up it, other than simple logic & propietary issues).
They label them Quality Certificates / Certificate Documentation, which, from speaking with similar companies that use the same wording, such as Hangsen, they documents should be similar to GC/MS, though I believe they are SGS documents, specific to an overseas company they work with (in Hangsens case).
I just reviewed this entire thread and didn't find it, but I'm virtually sure in another 'diacetyl thread' someone posted a link to a European Quality Certificate and that it showed ZERO specific testing for their version of "GRAS" chemicals, and had no specific requirements to reveal the levels of chemicals we need revealed. I'll go try to find it to confirm it, but I distinctly recall the European laws requiring nothing more than the current US laws...which was very much like the US "GRAS for ingestion".
I've not ordered direct from them as of yet, though I plan to in the next week, so if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll request the documents on the flavors I order and upload a sample of one. Some of the flavors I plan to order are "creamy" (by description), so I'll make it a point to upload one of each - a standard flavor (like strawberry or similar) and a creamy flavor (such as milk chocolate).
Thank you for all your effort & time/money expenditures (and we really do mean that)!
But DUDE (!)...unless we've missed something, there has been ZERO confirmation of diacetyl/similar free from them at all. Just more of them 'telling you so' (without any evidence to back it up), and you somehow interpreting and posting that as a confirmation. By all means, believe whomever and whatever you'd prefer to believe...but please-pretty-please-puhLEEZ (with-sugar-on-top), refrain from posting that you've confirmed things that you haven't yet confirmed. Wethinks that's a fair & reasonable ask - 'hope you do, too.
'Hope the documentation you get really does confirm their claims!
So they're just repeating what they said before. I'm sorry, but that is NOT "confirmation". Back in this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/diy-e-liquid/534508-flavors-may-contain-diacetyl-there-really-many-4.html
Post #151/JT Inawera is free of all three chemicals (Diacetyl, Acetoin and Acetyl Proprionyl).
Post 152#/we2 Where did you find that Inawera is free of diacetyl, acetoin, and acetyl proprionyl?
Post #155/JT I found this out by e-mailing them via their contact form as I too didn't see it on their website
I'm not sure why the information is not public, I can't really comment on that. One would think that such information would be available to the public, though they will only provide the information to customers and only on the flavors they purchase. I did follow up and ask why; just waiting to hear back from them
I can (and will) comment on that (lol) - not making information accessible & available certainly causes them to appear to be "anything but" honest & forthright. We know & recognize the vendors that fully disclose (and their typical responses). And then we have those that don't fully disclose, and their typical responses. "One of these things, doesn't belong here...which one is it?"
Of course, we understand that looking, walking & quacking like a duck doesn't PROVE anything to BE a duck. But it's been noted before by many - if you have the proof, why aren't you HAPPY to share it?!
From the above thread/we2:
We appreciate anyone willing to spend their time sending emails & getting responses - but for those responses to be taken seriously, they need to be backed up with proof...and that's something any company has 'at the ready' when they're going to make claims about anything.
We hope & wish that all "claims" of diacetyl/diketone free would be true, but so far that just isn't the pattern we're seeing at all.
"In grads to Flavor Art, some of the flavours has been introduced in our Tino dMila no line: http://inawerashop.com/tino-dmilano-flavours-c-1_13_34.html"
Direct quote from the e-mail, so I would imagine those with the same/similar names are indeed FlavourArt. I am going to follow up to see if they'll let me know which ones specifically as I'd rather stick to their core line-up myself since I know which FA flavors do and do not contain the chemicals.
Hmmm, well, that certainly appears to be 'what you thought'. On the other hand, "some of the flavors", could mean they're buying from FA & mixing with 'some of them'. I thought FA had some kind of a strict "no rebranding thing" to prevent that very 'type of thing' (but I have no idea where I came up it, other than simple logic & propietary issues).
They label them Quality Certificates / Certificate Documentation, which, from speaking with similar companies that use the same wording, such as Hangsen, they documents should be similar to GC/MS, though I believe they are SGS documents, specific to an overseas company they work with (in Hangsens case).
I just reviewed this entire thread and didn't find it, but I'm virtually sure in another 'diacetyl thread' someone posted a link to a European Quality Certificate and that it showed ZERO specific testing for their version of "GRAS" chemicals, and had no specific requirements to reveal the levels of chemicals we need revealed. I'll go try to find it to confirm it, but I distinctly recall the European laws requiring nothing more than the current US laws...which was very much like the US "GRAS for ingestion".
I've not ordered direct from them as of yet, though I plan to in the next week, so if someone doesn't beat me to it, I'll request the documents on the flavors I order and upload a sample of one. Some of the flavors I plan to order are "creamy" (by description), so I'll make it a point to upload one of each - a standard flavor (like strawberry or similar) and a creamy flavor (such as milk chocolate).
Thank you for all your effort & time/money expenditures (and we really do mean that)!
But DUDE (!)...unless we've missed something, there has been ZERO confirmation of diacetyl/similar free from them at all. Just more of them 'telling you so' (without any evidence to back it up), and you somehow interpreting and posting that as a confirmation. By all means, believe whomever and whatever you'd prefer to believe...but please-pretty-please-puhLEEZ (with-sugar-on-top), refrain from posting that you've confirmed things that you haven't yet confirmed. Wethinks that's a fair & reasonable ask - 'hope you do, too.
'Hope the documentation you get really does confirm their claims!
On the Components Sheet, find the flavor in which you're interested. Then look at the line to the right of it. And the very end of that line (under the header: Components), you'll see the word: List Click on: List Then look for the words, acetylpropionyl, acetyl propionyl, and/or acetoin to see if the flavor contains those chemicals. (I'm pretty sure there's no diacetyl in any TFA flavors anymore).
I have a small order for about 20-30 bottles in with them as of last night, so I'll be following up with a request for the information. Hopefully I'll have it within 24-48 hours as that's been the typical response time for them. I'm not the only one with Inawera though. Many others have been in contact with them and put them right up there with FlavourArt in terms of being free of those chemicals. Other threads with other members are detailing them same here on ECF, I'm simply moving forward to ask for proof on my end and in turn, I'll post it to this thread. Other members appear to already be requesting such and were probably told the same thing as I was.
The issue with FW seems to be a fluke experience - perhaps they don't care, or they employees (even managers) are not well-informed - but all of the Hangsen documents I've seen show no presence of those chemicals. Obviously I haven't seen one for every single flavor, though when picking flavors that others mentioned in the array of threads on the topic, the worst chemical present was the Benzyl alcohol which carries a bit of toxicity with it. The rest of what shows up in their e-liquids consisted of what I mentioned in a thread earlier on. Audrey has followed up with me multiple times since and did all but beg to convince me that the chemicals were not present and that everyone has an open offer to test their flavors anytime, anyplace for further confirmation.
If someone had access to a lab, I'd gladly throw up 30-50ml's of French Vanilla Ice Cream for them to test out if that's enough, no cost. I have a 120ml bottle sitting right in front of me and I use it sparingly as it's a pretty stout flavor
.I won't comment further on Inawera until they respond though. I don't taste the chemicals in either brands (Hangsen or Inawera). I can, however, taste it easily in Capella's, TFA's and the ones FlavourArt offers that are already labeled, so I can tell where it is, though it seems some of the flavors that would make you think it's there, it's really not. Hangsens' Vanilla is a prime example. It starts off very buttery like, but their report from SGS shows none of the chemicals.
we2rcool does FlavourArt have an ingredient list on the flavours somewhere? I do believe you that they are free of AA&D but there was a thread on the Canadian site discussing not being able to find it anywhere.
this is a quote from a Canadian e-juice maker, a large one that carries MANY flavours and uses many different Flavour manufacturers. He is in the process of testing every single flavour concentrate that he uses for AA&D. It's his response to the question regarding whether FlavourArt has anything to back up their claim in being AA&D free.
"yes I only use the ones in vape heaven, it advices you which flavours do and dont have D, A and AA. but I cant say for sure 100% all those flavour dont have any of those ingredients, just the ones I used ive tested and came back ND for D, A, and AA and I use most of them.
I dont have the same confidence with the other flavour manufacturers, I want cold hard proof and not skirting it. I think TPA is pretty reliable in their information the others not so much. "
So he's tested "most" of them and they indeed did come up ND, which makes me really happy but I still can't see where Flavourart lists ingredients.
this is a quote from a Canadian e-juice maker, a large one that carries MANY flavours and uses many different Flavour manufacturers. He is in the process of testing every single flavour concentrate that he uses for AA&D. It's his response to the question regarding whether FlavourArt has anything to back up their claim in being AA&D free.
"yes I only use the ones in vape heaven, it advices you which flavours do and dont have D, A and AA. but I cant say for sure 100% all those flavour dont have any of those ingredients, just the ones I used ive tested and came back ND for D, A, and AA and I use most of them.
I dont have the same confidence with the other flavour manufacturers, I want cold hard proof and not skirting it. I think TPA is pretty reliable in their information the others not so much. "
So he's tested "most" of them and they indeed did come up ND, which makes me really happy
but I still can't see where Flavourart lists ingredients.
vangrl27
I've not see a detailed list, as in amounts, though if you look under the Kitchen Magic section of their site and click on flavors, you'll see the warnings. I'll use "Beer" as an example as it was one that I actually tinkered with a while back just for the heck of it. It's an interesting flavor to say the least. It was something I tried closer to the start of my vaping adventure, so I'm sure the taste is better than it was when I tried it (and before all of this was a major issue).
Magie in Cucina :: Aromi dolci :: Aroma Birra - Dettaglio del prodotto - FlavourArt - La sartoria degli aromi
You'll see the following:
"This flavor contains Diacetyl and/or related diketones. Not suitable for vaping. For further details see diacetyl page in Vape Heaven section"
All of the flavors in the Electronic Cigarette category are considered to be free of these chemicals.
I've not see a detailed list, as in amounts, though if you look under the Kitchen Magic section of their site and click on flavors, you'll see the warnings. I'll use "Beer" as an example as it was one that I actually tinkered with a while back just for the heck of it. It's an interesting flavor to say the least. It was something I tried closer to the start of my vaping adventure, so I'm sure the taste is better than it was when I tried it (and before all of this was a major issue).
Magie in Cucina :: Aromi dolci :: Aroma Birra - Dettaglio del prodotto - FlavourArt - La sartoria degli aromi
You'll see the following:
"This flavor contains Diacetyl and/or related diketones. Not suitable for vaping. For further details see diacetyl page in Vape Heaven section"
All of the flavors in the Electronic Cigarette category are considered to be free of these chemicals.
Or if you prefer, here's the easy button -- TFA flavors not reporting Diacetyl, Acetoin, or AcetylProprionyl
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