Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP

[vangrl27]

but say a big e-juice company sells 200 e-juice flavours, they may only use 100 flavour concentrates to create those 200 e-juices.

Below is a quote I received from Enthalpy regarding what it would cost to test for AA&D, and what was their lowest detection level.

"Thanks for the note. The target analytes would be: Acetoin, Acetyl and Diacetyl with a 1-2 ppm detection limit.

1 sample = $200/each
2-25 samples = $135/each
26-50 samples = $125/each
>50 samples = $120/each"

So testing 100 flavour concentrates wold cost roughly $12,000. Starting up any business costs money, sometimes A LOT of money (try opening a restaurant), personally I'd be all over spending the money to test and posting the results. It seems like a no-brainer to me from a business perspective.

 

[vangrl27]

They were not following this thread. No idea when I called. People weren't mentioning tis thread. They haven't been using flavor west since last October (except for maybe some fruit flavors). When they ran out of butterscotch, they switched to another vendor. Plus, Hoosier is not that concerned, nor are several other members throughout the forum. You are in Canada, keep debating the flavor issue, and no problem, they will be gone (unless you do it yourself). PS, mt baker isn't going anywhere, so they are ready for FDA regs.

Just a little thought along the lines of that vp live team broadcast link you posted.

What they took offense at was people claiming in this thread that they could taste diacetyl in the juices. They didn't know this was going on, I brought it to their attention, which made sense as to the phone calls they were getting.

Believe it or not, I don't try to insist on something you can't see nor hear.

"What they took offense at was people claiming in this thread that they could taste diacetyl in the juices. They didn't know this was going on, I brought it to their attention, which made sense as to the phone calls they were getting."

Do you mean that MBV was upset that vapers said they could taste Diacetyl in MBV juices, or just that people claimed that they were actually able to 'taste' diacetyl in any juice? and when did you bring this thread to their attention?

thanks!

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

That's possible, but unlikely with that high a number, especially when the majority of what is offered by vendors with those numbers are single-flavor e-liquids, not blends (although some are blends, the majority are not). If it were indeed, as in this example, as simple as 100 flavors = 200 e-liquids, the cost would indeed be halved, but still unnecessary if the provider of said flavors simply produced the data on what they should already know. Again, I don't think any vendor is trying to reverse engineer a flavor, rather, just find out information on 3 specific chemicals that are well-documented, even outside this industry (i.e. even concern is growing in the food industry for those exposed to oils and sprays with these chemicals present).


That all being said, here's a simple solution if we could get just a handful of vendors on-board. Instead of investing $10-$20k alone and each vendor potentially spending the same or about the same to test their flavors pre or post mix, create a community pool of funding that is used exclusively to test flavors from manufacturers that do not or will not provide documentation. If ECBlends, MBV and a few other big name vendors contributed to the project as well as a handful of smaller vendors with what they can afford, we could raise enough funding to create a project that would publicize the information for all current and upcoming vendors. This could also be used as a database for any requirements that the FDA may enforce once the regulations become valid and are enforced.

Given that it would be a rather large-scale project, and it would be a substantial amount of testing and money being spent, I'm sure a lab would cut a deal for exclusivity on it.

but say a big e-juice company sells 200 e-juice flavours, they may only use 100 flavour concentrates to create those 200 e-juices.

Below is a quote I received from Enthalpy regarding what it would cost to test for AA&D, and what was their lowest detection level.

"Thanks for the note. The target analytes would be: Acetoin, Acetyl and Diacetyl with a 1-2 ppm detection limit.

1 sample = $200/each
2-25 samples = $135/each
26-50 samples = $125/each
>50 samples = $120/each"

So testing 100 flavour concentrates wold cost roughly $12,000. Starting up any business costs money, sometimes A LOT of money (try opening a restaurant), personally I'd be all over spending the money to test and posting the results. It seems like a no-brainer to me from a business perspective.

 

[ImperfectFuture]

"What they took offense at was people claiming in this thread that they could taste diacetyl in the juices. They didn't know this was going on, I brought it to their attention, which made sense as to the phone calls they were getting."

Do you mean that MBV was upset that vapers said they could taste Diacetyl in MBV juices, or just that people claimed that they were actually able to 'taste' diacetyl in any juice? and when did you bring this thread to their attention?

thanks!

Brother.

I spoke with them about the thread yesterday.

I confirmed lack of flavor west last month, which you agreed to. Jeff last month confirmed no flavor west. Spoke with some higher up yesterday. Spoke with some chemists on different call. Some folks just felt the need to spew random I can taste, it wasn't the regular posters in this thread. It causes folks to get riled up, and will fuel the demise of the smaller vendors.

I also think the testing has something to do with the FDA deeming regs, as suggested on that podcast, though it wasn't mentioned.

Personally, I buy from different vendors, and this is above and beyond. You can believe or not, just I've been pm'd by forum members that making a lot of huff about this WILL damage the industry big time. Mt baker can survive, most can't (such as ecig expires, and those other vendors offering flavor art etc). Think carefully before flinging unscientific allegations. I know you are in different country, but the FDA forum is full of pleadings to stick with strict scientific data when it comes to commenting via consumer over deeming regs. The kind of stuff in this thread would not be good, and the CDC would clamp down so tight, very few vendors would survive, you would need a bunch to pop up in Canada.

 

[vangrl27]

Brother.

I spoke with them about the thread yesterday.

I confirmed lack of flavor west last month, which you agreed to. Jeff last month confirmed no flavor west. Spoke with some higher up yesterday. Spoke with some chemists on different call. Some folks just felt the need to spew random I can taste, it wasn't the regular posters in this thread. It causes folks to get riled up, and will fuel the demise of the smaller vendors.

I also think the testing has something to do with the FDA deeming regs, as suggested on that podcast, though it wasn't mentioned.

Personally, I buy from different vendors, and this is above and beyond. You can believe or not, just I've been pm'd by forum members that making a lot of huff about this WILL damage the industry big time. Mt baker can survive, most can't (such as ecig expires, and those other vendors offering flavor art etc). Think carefully before flinging unscientific allegations. I know you are in different country, but the FDA forum is full of pleadings to stick with strict scientific data when it comes to commenting via consumer over deeming regs. The kind of stuff in this thread would not be good, and the CDC would clamp down so tight, very few vendors would survive, you would need a bunch to pop up in Canada.

" just I've been pm'd by forum members that making a lot of huff about this WILL damage the industry big time"

I don't believe it's threads like this that may damage the industry, although the public posting of Dr Farsalinos testing may. If e-juice makers (all of them) had been more cautious about the concentrates that they used the testing may not have shown a disastrous 69% having diacetyl.

It's threads like this, as you've just proven, that are giving vendors a push to be more cautious, which will ultimately be better for the vaping community.

We could be all hush hush about bad tests and Flavour vendors not being forthright, and that might be better for FDA reasons, but at who's expense? my health? I don't want to be vaping diacetyl if I don't have to, and I don't want to be told "Diacetyl Free" if that's false.

 

[vangrl27]

That's possible, but unlikely with that high a number, especially when the majority of what is offered by vendors with those numbers are single-flavor e-liquids, not blends (although some are blends, the majority are not). If it were indeed, as in this example, as simple as 100 flavors = 200 e-liquids, the cost would indeed be halved, but still unnecessary if the provider of said flavors simply produced the data on what they should already know. Again, I don't think any vendor is trying to reverse engineer a flavor, rather, just find out information on 3 specific chemicals that are well-documented, even outside this industry (i.e. even concern is growing in the food industry for those exposed to oils and sprays with these chemicals present).


That all being said, here's a simple solution if we could get just a handful of vendors on-board. Instead of investing $10-$20k alone and each vendor potentially spending the same or about the same to test their flavors pre or post mix, create a community pool of funding that is used exclusively to test flavors from manufacturers that do not or will not provide documentation. If ECBlends, MBV and a few other big name vendors contributed to the project as well as a handful of smaller vendors with what they can afford, we could raise enough funding to create a project that would publicize the information for all current and upcoming vendors. This could also be used as a database for any requirements that the FDA may enforce once the regulations become valid and are enforced.

Given that it would be a rather large-scale project, and it would be a substantial amount of testing and money being spent, I'm sure a lab would cut a deal for exclusivity on it.

Could be a good idea!

Another possibility is to test 5 of the most suspect flavours from each flavour vendor, to see if their claims of being AA&D are true, and go from there.
Say a couple of companies flavours came up loaded with Diacetyl and it was publicly posted, that may give the flavour vendors a push to at the very least be honest, giving E-juice makers & DIY'ers the choice to continue using them based on accurate and honest info presented.

It seems right now that there are a number of flavour companies that people are unsure about

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

Could be a good idea!

Another possibility is to test 5 of the most suspect flavours from each flavour vendor, to see if their claims of being AA&D are true, and go from there.
Say a couple of companies flavours came up loaded with Diacetyl and it was publicly posted, that may give the flavour vendors a push to at the very least be honest, giving E-juice makers & DIY'ers the choice to continue using them based on accurate and honest info presented.

It seems right now that there are a number of flavour companies that people are unsure about

Could be . I don't mind reaching out to ECBlends and MBV to see if they would be interested. The worst they can say is no.

Testing a few flavors would be suitable and would definitely reduce the costs associated with testing, though in the long run, it would be better to simply test them all and have concentration rates since that seems to be one of the bigger issues due to the variances (i.e. one flavor having ~50-100 PPB and another having 1,000+ PPB - just a varied example).

Documenting this on each flavor across the well-known vendors, even FA just to have them on paper, would be time consuming, but if other vendors would be willing to step up and participate, I'd be willing to do the web work myself and sort through the data presented by the lab.

 

[vangrl27]

Could be . I don't mind reaching out to ECBlends and MBV to see if they would be interested. The worst they can say is no.

Testing a few flavors would be suitable and would definitely reduce the costs associated with testing, though in the long run, it would be better to simply test them all and have concentration rates since that seems to be one of the bigger issues due to the variances (i.e. one flavor having ~50-100 PPB and another having 1,000+ PPB - just a varied example).

Documenting this on each flavor across the well-known vendors, even FA just to have them on paper, would be time consuming, but if other vendors would be willing to step up and participate, I'd be willing to do the web work myself and sort through the data presented by the lab.

That's really nice of you! I think it's a great idea, the only downside I see is vendors feeling it's unfair for them to have to pay for info that other vendors will use.

But it may be that if it became a big enough idea and many, many vendors jumped on board, the cost for each vendor would come down substantially, the vendors involved would receive good publicity, and the FDA may appreciate it. Vapers could maybe even pitch in a bit? As they did with the Dr's tests.

In retrospect, it's a shame that the Dr didn't test flavour concentrates rather than e-juices.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

That's really nice of you! I think it's a great idea, the only downside I see is vendors feeling it's unfair for them to have to pay for info that other vendors will use.

But it may be that if it became a big enough idea and many, many vendors jumped on board, the cost for each vendor would come down substantially, the vendors involved would receive good publicity, and the FDA may appreciate it. Vapers could maybe even pitch in a bit? As they did with the Dr's tests.

In retrospect, it's a shame that the Dr didn't test flavour concentrates rather than e-juices.

I've reached out to ECBlends and MBV as of this post. ECBlends already responded and I've provided them with a bit of information, so we'll see how that goes.

Ideally if, as an example, we needed $50k to bring a project like that to life (shot in the dark estimate so we have something to work with0, that would be 50 vendors pledging $1,000 or, 100 pledging $500 or 200 pledging $250 and if the vaping community as a whole wanted to chip in and ECF authorized it for posting via a sticky or similar, then that would be something that could be done to reduce the costs further.

It's one way of getting the information out there and making it known. Given it would be a third-party, unaffiliated lab, it would provide unbiased documentation. At the end of the day, vendors may still use the flavors and vapers may still vape them, but at least vendors could provide information on the final product so their customers can have piece of mind if they are worried.



Just a note, to the ECF mods - this isn't a business discussion nor is it meant to turn into one, though if you feel it borders on a business discussion, please let me know via PM. I feel it's something we would all benefit from - no one specific vendor, vaper, etc benefits more than the other as the benefit would be shared among the community as a whole.

 

[Sdh]

I've reached out to ECBlends and MBV as of this post. ECBlends already responded and I've provided them with a bit of information, so we'll see how that goes.

Ideally if, as an example, we needed $50k to bring a project like that to life (shot in the dark estimate so we have something to work with0, that would be 50 vendors pledging $1,000 or, 100 pledging $500 or 200 pledging $250 and if the vaping community as a whole wanted to chip in and ECF authorized it for posting via a sticky or similar, then that would be something that could be done to reduce the costs further.

It's one way of getting the information out there and making it known. Given it would be a third-party, unaffiliated lab, it would provide unbiased documentation. At the end of the day, vendors may still use the flavors and vapers may still vape them, but at least vendors could provide information on the final product so their customers can have piece of mind if they are worried.



Just a note, to the ECF mods - this isn't a business discussion nor is it meant to turn into one, though if you feel it borders on a business discussion, please let me know via PM. I feel it's something we would all benefit from - no one specific vendor, vaper, etc benefits more than the other as the benefit would be shared among the community as a whole.

@Johnathon I believe your idea will work. We just need someone to take charge and start the funding process, gather bids, etc. I only hope all the vendors could unite on this. In addition, the vaping populous could also donate. Vapers would need numerous ways of donating funds, etc.

 

[Sdh]

On a different note: I just looked at Flavorwest website. They have MSDS sheets on every product. However, no test analysis on flavors related to diketones. Just a generic https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hbd7e6q3n52czbx/AADvnec1cvXBko2QTrYeKlZLa/Butterscotch.pdf
The only thing I understand from their documentation is that they will not be held liable for improper use of said flavoring. Section 16 of MSDS sheet.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

On a different note: I just looked at Flavorwest website. They have MSDS sheets on every product. However, no test analysis on flavors related to diketones. Just a generic https://www.dropbox.com/sh/hbd7e6q3n52czbx/AADvnec1cvXBko2QTrYeKlZLa/Butterscotch.pdf
The only thing I understand from their documentation is that they will not be held liable for improper use of said flavoring. Section 16 of MSDS sheet.

It's unethical of them to hide behind that language. "not responsible..." when they explicitly market their products to vapers.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

This lip service BS is not acceptable.

 

[Sdh]

It's unethical of them to hide behind that language. "not responsible..." when they explicitly market their products to vapers.

I know! I am still boycotting them until they test their flavorings. They are the manufacturer of this particular brand of flavoring. They should take some responsibility and test their flavors.

 

[vangrl27]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6pon5hhbk4aasnu/AAD-ZDu_T5zHSfKtiGd1DNfya/Natural%20and%20Artificial%20Butterscotch%20Flavor%20MSDS.pdf


This is the MSDS sheet, I believe Sdh posted the COA data

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/6pon5hhbk4aasnu/AAD-ZDu_T5zHSfKtiGd1DNfya/Natural%20and%20Artificial%20Butterscotch%20Flavor%20MSDS.pdf


This is the MSDS sheet, I believe Sdh posted the COA data

...uh huh...

all that says is:

Section 3. Hazards Identification
Inhalation: Repeated overexposure may be harmful.

...and that you should keep it in a well-ventilated area.

everything else is pretty much blank or not really relevant to vaping. But that is the stuff they were selling to people specifically for purposes of concentrated inhalation.

 

[vangrl27]

...uh huh...

all that says is:

Section 3. Hazards Identification
Inhalation: Repeated overexposure may be harmful.

...and that you should keep it in a well-ventilated area.

everything else is pretty much blank or not really relevant to vaping. But that is the stuff they were selling to people specifically for purposes of concentrated inhalation.

Yes and I believe that every COA and MSDS data is identical for every flavour, at least the ones I've looked at. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Sdh]

Yes and I believe that every COA and MSDS data is identical for every flavour, at least the ones I've looked at. Correct me if I'm wrong.

It looks like all the flavor MSDS sheets are identical. I don't have time to go through each one but will at a later date.

 

[Sdh]

...uh huh...

all that says is:

Section 3. Hazards Identification
Inhalation: Repeated overexposure may be harmful.

...and that you should keep it in a well-ventilated area.

everything else is pretty much blank or not really relevant to vaping. But that is the stuff they were selling to people specifically for purposes of concentrated inhalation.

I would like to know what level is the "repeated overexposure may be harmful" level? This is more of a slap in the face. Come on Flavorwest!

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

It looks like all the flavor MSDS sheets are identical. I don't have time to go through each one but will at a later date.

Most of the MSDS's will be the same since the majority of FW flavors (perhaps all?) use PG as a base to dilute the flavor crystals or liquid flavoring they purchase. I'm a bit surprised to see nothing mentioned on the COA though. Normally COA's will actually list hazardous chemicals. I've seen one from Inawera right now, I'm just waiting on the other two-dozen to be e-mailed to me and even they list that much (it's all in a foreign language - trying to get English versions so I don't have to translate them all once received).

As for the lab/testing project, if there was enough support and I can attract vendors and vapers to it, I'd be up for heading it off. I'm more so in it for the information - I'd personally like to be able to validate the claims with one resource and provide it as a tool for vapers and the community. Setting up the site and backend is the easy part, cataloging flavors takes a little time, but could be done in a week or less. It's the funding aspect that would hold it back unless major support is gained.