Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP

[vangrl27]

LOL, futureinsights came from those writings in the 80's that were going to get published, but I never submitted. Wrote using dial up web pages mid nineties, they said it would never happen (dang but that credit bubble did). Later, changed to futureimperfect, but some dagnabbit needed to write a scifi book around 2011 with that name, changed to imperfectfuture 2011 starting with YouTube then other sites. Someone stole my URL (they do that, so you have to buy later, well, I showed him - uk company - by using a hyphen.) This user id is only of three ecig sites using the name, and all use the same acronym.

I'm not upset overall, I'm upset that this will affect the regs, I know your Canadian, and they have their own issues going, along with the Brits and eu, but this REALLY is how our government works ATM, and this thread, if not done scientifically, and without proof, does more harm than good. That is again in the casaa warnings for consumers, the Sfasta (US) warnings to vendors, etc, these organizations are listening to lawyers, I don't know how the friends are up north, but stocks go up and down depending on who sues who first (we are a litigious society, where they still believe that money and death penalty actually corrects societies ills).

I'm not sure what you're saying in your first paragraph so I'll leave that

but...

"if not done scientifically, and without proof, does more harm than good."

This thread has been mostly all about 'proof' in form of lab testing. There have been some folks that claim that they can taste and smell (unfortunately I'm not one of them) butter notes, and as the tests have shown they've actually been dead on so far. So personally I'm totally believing them at this point.

They can't taste AA&D in any F.A e-cig line - Maple leaf vapes lab tests have shown ND for all of the flavours he's tested, and he's tested most of them.

They can taste AA&D in some of F.W flavours - BIngo! Diacetyl did indeed show up in the lab results.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

PPS: as much as you want to separate the two, you can't. There will be regulation if you want this route. Just saying, you will pay. Tis up to you, but MOST vapors aren't DIY'ing it, and the major industries are fighting the regs. And many vapors don't agree with the fear from diacetyl, since it is in current cigarettes (not my personal opinion, just my quick survey from threads in general e smoking and new member forums.

I'd like to quote from earlier in the thread, post #93

This kinda irresponsibility in unregulated markets is exactly why, as ....ty as it is, these markets will likely end up being regulated. In fact, why they should be regulated.... like a legally defined acceptable ppm for these chemicals, based on hard science, etc

...Now if there were some way to ensure that the regulations are reasonable and merely sufficient to ensure safety...

Companies that actively prove that eliquid makers and suppliers are unable to operate safely without regulation are the enemy, TBH.

Don't blame the people who just want transparency and safety in vaping, in defense of irresponsible producers who never even bothered to check what was in their products and supplies.

As a test, post some topics in the clearomizer, apv, FDA, etc. forums. If what you are aiming for here is what the general populace wants, no problemo? But, methinks you will see the same replies I saw in the new member thread. ESPECIALLY in the FDA forum.

• New member forum - always where the most reliable of forum users congregate
• FDA forum - 40% spindoctors, 40% people who just want everyone to know that they know everything, 15% nonsense, and 5% people who actually want to address the issue on a rational level

Otherwise, do the best research you can, but if someone doesn't want to give you the info, this doesn't automatically make them guilty.

Well, it sure makes them either

1. ignorant of their own products and just too cheap to actually determine what is in them
2. sketchy and/or shady

-------------------

Let's take the long view. Lets assume, that for now:

• No regs passed
• no pressure on the companies to test or make transparent the ingredients of their juice
• everything proceeds per the status quo

What happens when chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD) begins to become very prevalent among the vaping community, those who have been vaping these black-box flavors for years or decades even? Will that be good for the future of vaping? Good for the people who can't breath? Who or what will that be good for?

Vaping is an infant industry, and regardless of fear-mongering by the FDA and MSM and PHARMA and BT, by people here on ECF and elsewhere, if we all endeavor to get it started on the right path it will be around for a long long time. The idea is to get it started right, as a responsible industry, and not merely embrace the Capitalist ideal of "Ima do what I want regardless of anyone else, make as much money as I can, until someone forcibly stops me."

So, don't attack people who want a healthy, responsible industry... just 'cause some producers just don't feel like being honest or transparent, either one, with a product that could seriously impair the health of their customers.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Everyone claims they have the right to know, how's that working for y'all on the gno issue (which I voted for?). Big money won that ine too

I do believe VT has successfully moved on this, no?

Then again, that would be a non-issue if people were simply honest about what is in their products instead of trying to hide it with money and lobbying and propaganda campaigns.

----

Please don't even suggest that the vaping community and industry should or does or will act like BigFood and BigAg.

that makes me sad

 

[Nermal]

I would like to know what level is the "repeated overexposure may be harmful" level? This is more of a slap in the face. Come on Flavorwest!

I would settle for a non circular definition of 'overexposure'.

 

[ImperfectFuture]

I do believe VT has successfully moved on this, no?

Then again, that would be a non-issue if people were simply honest about what is in their products instead of trying to hide it with money and lobbying and propaganda campaigns.

----

Please don't even suggest that the vaping community and industry should or does or will act like BigFood and BigAg.

that makes me sad

The other states need at least 3 to 5 more states to pass gmo's legislation, And it's always the same scare tactics, did in california. It always polls well in certain states, and then they come in with the big scare. The vaping industry is half owned by BT, so can't give you'd solace there.

 

[Sdh]

Hi guys! I just seen this on facebook. We have just received 13 new flavors from Natures Flavors! Containing only all-natural ingredients, certified organic, kosher, vegan, gluten-free, and diacetyl-free, Natures Flavors are the choice for those who want only the highest quality ingredients. Order yours today!

Nature's Flavor Organic e-Liquid Flavoring | ecigExpress
However, I went to natures flavors and a few of the flavors contain sugar. Any thoughts on sugar inhalation?
Organic Danish Pastry Coffee and Tea Flavor without Diacetyl

Click on additional information.
Direct link to ecx danish
Danish Pastry by Nature's Flavors - ecigExpress

 

[flowerpots]

Sugar will gunk up your coils fast. I don't know about caution with sugar inhalation though. I think vendors use sugar though, some do, not just sucralose.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

sugar will gunk up eventually, and even before it will produce half-burn carbon compounds

I have one recipe that uses a caramel with sugar in it, and it's great for a while but then goes down hill

 

[Sdh]

Sugar will gunk up your coils fast. I don't know about caution with sugar inhalation though. I think vendors use sugar though, some do, not just sucralose.

I think I will research
Posting this since I don't have time to read it all.

Scientific assessment of the use of sugars as cigarette tobacco ingredients: A review of published and other publicly available studies

 

[LoveVanilla]

Any thoughts on sugar inhalation?

Avoid; here's one post from Kurt, an ECF resident chemist:

Sugars in general are not recommended, since they easily decompose with heat into stuff you do not want to inhale: aldehydes, free-radicals, etc. <snip>

 

[we2rcool]

Avoid; here's one post from Kurt, an ECF resident chemist:

Quote Originally Posted by Kurt View Post
Sugars in general are not recommended, since they easily decompose with heat into stuff you do not want to inhale: aldehydes, free-radicals, etc. <snip>

'Not saying we should vape sugar (at the very least, it trashes coils), and we've seen that warning before, but we do have to wonder...

If sugar decomposes into all that bad stuff at 'low vaping temperatures' in miniscule amounts, why is that we can boil & bake it? I've stood over many a pot of bubbling jelly/jam for hours inhaling the 'vapor' while stirring constantly (thinking of the huge open vats of bubbling/steaming sugar jam/jellies/syrups in factories). And we're not talking "ppm" here, we're talking a vat that's primary ingredient is sugar.

'Just thinkin' out loud...hmmm - so much to ponder, so little time.

 

[AmandaD]

According to the study posted a few posts back, inhalation of sugar in cigarettes did not pose a problem.

 

[Jonathan Tittle]

'Not saying we should vape sugar (at the very least, it trashes coils), and we've seen that warning before, but we do have to wonder...

If sugar decomposes into all that bad stuff at 'low vaping temperatures' in miniscule amounts, why is that we can boil & bake it? I've stood over many a pot of bubbling jelly/jam for hours inhaling the 'vapor' while stirring constantly (thinking of the huge open vats of bubbling/steaming sugar jam/jellies/syrups in factories). And we're not talking "ppm" here, we're talking a vat that's primarily ingredient is sugar.

'Just thinkin' out loud...hmmm - so much to ponder, so little time.

That too makes me wonder as I've been making caramel, butterscotch and preserves/jelly/jam for years now, not to mention using a butane torch to do honey & sugar glazed hams for the holidays, and I know the chef's torch gets hotter than the coils I vape with.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

when it burns, it doesn't taste good

 

[Sdh]

Thanks for the replies. I'll skip the sugar.

 

[vgnut]

One of my biggest concerns with FW juices, is now that they are individually testing their products for diacetyl, and tagging each product that comes back diacetyl free, is:

What if a product does fail the test ? My assumption is, they are not going to label it as diacetyl positive. They are going to change the formula, and re-certify it. If they did label it as not diacetyl free, they would be incriminating themselves since every bottle I have has it on the label.

So if they dont tell us which products are bad, we either need to test them ourselves, or throw them away. A responsible company would issue a recall to all of their customers who have purchased any offending products, since they made false claims. This is of course assuming that some of the flavors may test positive.

I hope I don't have a bunch of bad juice that I will never know the truth about.

 

[vangrl27]

One of my biggest concerns with FW juices, is now that they are individually testing their products for diacetyl, and tagging each product that comes back diacetyl free, is:

What if a product does fail the test ? My assumption is, they are not going to label it as diacetyl positive. They are going to change the formula, and re-certify it. If they did label it as not diacetyl free, they would be incriminating themselves since every bottle I have has it on the label.

So if they dont tell us which products are bad, we either need to test them ourselves, or throw them away. A responsible company would issue a recall to all of their customers who have purchased any offending products, since they made false claims. This is of course assuming that some of the flavors may test positive.

I hope I don't have a bunch of bad juice that I will never know the truth about.

They are not saying anything about any juices that have 1% or less Diacetyl.
F.W - "The FDA does not require suppliers to disclose specific ingredients if the material falls under the maximum requirements. For Diatcetyl it is 1%"

we2rcool - "FYI- In a flavoring that has less than 1% (.6%) diacetyl/similar, when used at a mere 2% in a juice, we'd be vaping 1200 ppb."

Me - Flavor West recommends using 15-20% flavouring. The amount of Diacetyl increases when heated, as in put on an atomizer and vaped.

NIOSH - "NIOSH recommends that exposure to diacetyl be kept below a concentration of 5 parts per billion (ppb) as a time-weighted average (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. To further protect against effects of short-term exposures, NIOSH recommends a short-term exposure limit (STEL) for diacetyl of 25 ppb for a 15-minute time period. "


As far as testing goes, I believe they only said they would put COA's on their website, which they already did. So any info you're going to get from them is already available. I could be mistaken?

You - "This is of course assuming that some of the flavors may test positive."

You should read this entire thread

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

One of my biggest concerns with FW juices, is now that they are individually testing their products for diacetyl, and tagging each product that comes back diacetyl free, is:

What if a product does fail the test ? My assumption is, they are not going to label it as diacetyl positive. They are going to change the formula, and re-certify it. If they did label it as not diacetyl free, they would be incriminating themselves since every bottle I have has it on the label.

So if they dont tell us which products are bad, we either need to test them ourselves, or throw them away. A responsible company would issue a recall to all of their customers who have purchased any offending products, since they made false claims. This is of course assuming that some of the flavors may test positive.

I hope I don't have a bunch of bad juice that I will never know the truth about.

Ima say you likely have a lot of "bad juice" - just watch out for that flavor, and if you still wanna vape it just don't go too hard - space it out.

I have a few flavorings that I'm reserving for future kitchen use

 

[vgnut]

They are not saying anything about any juices that have 1% or less Diacetyl.
F.W - "The FDA does not require suppliers to disclose specific ingredients if the material falls under the maximum requirements. For Diatcetyl it is 1%"

we2rcool - "FYI- In a flavoring that has less than 1% (.6%) diacetyl/similar, when used at a mere 2% in a juice, we'd be vaping 1200 ppb."

Me - Flavor West recommends using 15-20% flavouring. The amount of Diacetyl increases when heated, as in put on an atomizer and vaped.

NIOSH - "NIOSH recommends that exposure to diacetyl be kept below a concentration of 5 parts per billion (ppb) as a time-weighted average (TWA) during a 40-hour work week. To further protect against effects of short-term exposures, NIOSH recommends a short-term exposure limit (STEL) for diacetyl of 25 ppb for a 15-minute time period. "


As far as testing goes, I believe they only said they would put COA's on their website, which they already did. So any info you're going to get from them is already available. I could be mistaken?

You - "This is of course assuming that some of the flavors may test positive."

You should read this entire thread

I think I have read this whole thread... I know about the butterscotch, but that could have been acetoin catalyzing into diacetyl by the time they tested it. Or someone stuck it in a crock pot before sending it to the lab. I meant if any of their independently lab tested tests comes back positive. And if they are posting the 'independantly lab tested' flag because its under 1%, I'm done using them period. I dislike fuzzy truth. And their COA's ? ha, what a joke. Bring on the VG +nic. I think I'm shooting for the juices that use the least amount of flavoring from now on. and for the serious FUD:

Asbestos Round Two!

 

[vgnut]

As far as testing goes, I believe they only said they would put COA's on their website, which they already did. So any info you're going to get from them is already available. I could be mistaken?

Mistaken, if you missed the little red tag they have on some products now.
http://flavorwest.com/index.php/water-soluble-flavoring/bacon.html