Acetyl Proprionyl, Diacetyl, Acetoine HELP

[HeadInClouds]

So what you think the odds are about this flavor containing diacetyl?

FW Butter-cream - I'm convinced beyond all doubt it's loaded with diacetyl and/or substitutes. I've used it, and it gives me the immediate wanna-hurl feeling I get with those chemicals, even just smelling the bottle. I get that from quite a few FW flavors, but especially strong with Buttercream.... and Butter Pecan, Butter Rum, Butter Toffee, Gingerbread, Tres Leches, Vanilla Ice Cream, Yellow Cake... Quite a few Capella's give me the same impression; I think they have some heavy loads. When TFA has disclosed "trace notes" in flavorings I've used, I've usually detected them in there before I read about it. Because my suspicions have never been wrong before, I have no reason to doubt them with FW's flavorings. That is not to say I can always tell when it's in there - but when I detect it, it's using a lot.

 

[vangrl27]

"So what you think the odds are about this flavor containing diacetyl?"

Really Really High?

 

[vangrl27]

I might start DIY.

And I will probably just use F.A E-cig line.

Can anyone on this thread tell me which U.S vendor might be the best for ordering F.A? or do you guys just order direct from F.A?

Also, I might order the nic from Nude Nicotine, and it's tempting to add some of their flavours but I know nothing about them. Has anyone made any inquiries into whether they have any "custard notes" in any of their flavours?

thx!

 

[Wingsfan0310]

I might start DIY.

And I will probably just use F.A E-cig line.

Can anyone on this thread tell me which U.S vendor might be the best for ordering F.A? or do you guys just order direct from F.A?

Also, I might order the nic from Nude Nicotine, and it's tempting to add some of their flavours but I know nothing about them. Has anyone made any inquiries into whether they have any "custard notes" in any of their flavours?

thx!

For a USA vendor of FA seems like everyone is using Pure Vapes
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...pure-vapes-has-3ml-flavourart-flavorings.html

Cheers,
Steve

 

[we2rcool]

I might start DIY.

And I will probably just use F.A E-cig line.

Can anyone on this thread tell me which U.S vendor might be the best for ordering F.A? or do you guys just order direct from F.A?

Also, I might order the nic from Nude Nicotine, and it's tempting to add some of their flavours but I know nothing about them. Has anyone made any inquiries into whether they have any "custard notes" in any of their flavours?

thx!

We HIGHLY recommend NN for their nicotine. And many of their flavors are excellent (I'm very attached to Patchouli Vanilla & Mayan Mocha; my other half is sold on Pancakes! and Honey Tobacco).

However, in this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-suppliers-forum/462387-nude-nicotine-2-0-chemically-validated-nicotine-base-eliquid-ask-your-nn-chemistry-related-questions-here-8.html, we find they use acetoin for the 'creams' - and when we asked him to list the flavors/percentages (post #263), our request remained unanswered

 

[HeadInClouds]

However, in this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-suppliers-forum/462387-nude-nicotine-2-0-chemically-validated-nicotine-base-eliquid-ask-your-nn-chemistry-related-questions-here-8.html, we find they use acetoin for the 'creams' - and when we asked him to list the flavors/percentages (post #263), our request remains unanswered

Awwww! Well, at least that's one brand I didn't buy before finding that out. They were on my list to try....

 

[Sdh]

We HIGHLY recommend NN for their nicotine. And many of their flavors are excellent (I'm very attached to Patchouli Vanilla & Mayan Mocha; my other half is sold on Pancakes! and Honey Tobacco).

However, in this thread http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/e-cigarette-suppliers-forum/462387-nude-nicotine-2-0-chemically-validated-nicotine-base-eliquid-ask-your-nn-chemistry-related-questions-here-8.html, we find they use acetoin for the 'creams' - and when we asked him to list the flavors/percentages (post #263), our request remains unanswered

I bumped your question because I keep hearing/reading positive reviews of the flavorings. However, disclosure is a positive position to take as a vendor. I want to order some nic from them but will see if they ever reply to that question.

On a positive note: the vendor who was selling Red velvet cake must have pulled it or it was a valentine type e-liquid.

 

[DeadbeatJeff]

Has anyone tried NN's Tobacco? They say it's "absolute"... does this mean it is actually TA?

 

[we2rcool]

Awwww! Well, at least that's one brand I didn't buy before finding that out. They were on my list to try....

Woohoo! 'Glad you saved some money...and time...and materials...and frustration...and, and, and...

 

[downInTn]

Has anyone tried NN's Tobacco? They say it's "absolute"... does this mean it is actually TA?

Yeah, it's good stuff. I would say by definition it is an absolute but it's not as concentrated as some TA's. It's recommended at .5 - 2.0%.

 

[we2rcool]

Has anyone tried NN's Tobacco? They say it's "absolute"... does this mean it is actually TA?

Yes, we have the plain, the Honey Tobacco and Island Tobacco. They are definitely a large percentage true absolute - they're very tar-like and viscous...but not quite as thick as the pure absolutes we have. We can suck NN's into a syringe without warming it - but there's no way we can do that with the straight absolutes we have.

'Have never decided what to think about the Island (tropical & tobacco just don't go together in our brain) - but it's well-balanced and just might be a home-run for others. The Honey Tobacco is fantastic. The plain tobacco is a bit too 'brown & earthy' for me - but he really digs it (and both the Honey & plain are excellent mixers). Definitely start at .5% if you get them!

 

[we2rcool]

I bumped your question because I keep hearing/reading positive reviews of the flavorings. However, disclosure is a positive position to take as a vendor. I want to order some nic from them but will see if they ever reply to that question.

On a positive note: the vendor who was selling Red velvet cake must have pulled it or it was a valentine type e-liquid.

Thanks! We were hoping someone might bump it.

Besides... Ask your NN Chemistry-Related Questions Here ...that IS a chemistry related question!

 

[vangrl27]

me - "Can you please tell me which of your concentrated flavors have acetoin, acetyl and/or diacetyl in them?"


Nude Nic (Jake Rubenstein)

"Hello, thank you very much for your email! All flavors under our nude nicotine light up test under the limits of detection for all three molecules. All of our flavors start from entirely natural ingredients, and those three molecules are present in very limited quantities therein, always under the limits of detection . Which flavors caught your eye that you might be interested in? Know that the reason for us avoiding certain cream and custard flavor in higher concentrations is to avoid this fact "


I think he meant "line up" rather than light up?

 

[vangrl27]

I also replied back with a whole wack of flavours, and he just replied again. I have to say it took him less than 2 minutes to reply to my first e-mail!

Me -
"well I’m thinking about starting DIY, and the reason being is to try and avoid these 3 ingredients as much as possible. The concentrated flavours that interest me are - lemon mint, mango cream, melon madness, minty menthol, passion fruit coconut cream, peaches and cream, patchouli vanilla, shirley temple, watermelon mint, white chocolate raspberry & cake batter….quite a few actually"

Jay-
"That is quite a few! So glad that the lot of ours are congruent with your taste preferences maybe a sampler pack or two would save you a few dollars at that quantity? Know that these are all so much more concentrated than any of the other flavors you may have used in your DIY experience. Commonly customers use them at 2.5-7.5%, saving them some money in the long run compared to the competition."

me-
"For sure I’ll go the route of the sample packs!
One last question, do you do the lab tests yourself to determine the presence of those 3 chemicals?
Thanks again for your help, much appreciated!"

Jake-
"Yessir! It is one of the advantages of having my schooling as a chemist, & I perform most if not all of the analysis personally. We are working to bring in additional columns for the gas chromatograph which would allow us to test samples for the public on a regular basis. Know that this is well within our scope for the near future!"

 

[HeadInClouds]

Such beating around the bush makes me grumpy. "Very limited quantities" in whose opinion? "Under the limits of detection" by what method? No actual numbers to report, hmpf. At least they were polite, but that's not enough to get my money.

EDIT: meant to add a THANK YOU to vangrl and we2 for trying to pry out the information!

 

[we2rcool]

me - "Can you please tell me which of your concentrated flavors have acetoin, acetyl and/or diacetyl in them?"


Nude Nic (Jake Rubenstein

"Hello, thank you very much for your email! All flavors under our nude nicotine light up test under the limits of detection for all three molecules. All of our flavors start from entirely natural ingredients, and those three molecules are present in very limited quantities therein, always under the limits of detection . Which flavors caught your eye that you might be interested in? Know that the reason for us avoiding certain cream and custard flavor in higher concentrations is to avoid this fact "


I think he meant "line up" rather than light up?

'Dunno (light up/line up) neither seems to make sense to me.

What/whose "limits"? We've seen one test that showed <.4% diacetyl with the two letters (ND) following, meaning Not Detected. But .39% (or much less) is way over the NIOSH recommendations.

On the other hand, the difference between 'naturally occuring'. 'natural isolates' and 'synthetics" means a lot to us (but we understand others don't make this distinction). We know the synthetic diketones are NOT naturally occuring (they are synthetics) and cause various levels of harm (from all manner of tests AND actual empirical/real evidence). But nobody ever developed popcorn lung from working in the 'milk & butter rooms' of dairies & bakeries.

To explain (fwiw): If there happens to be very small trace amounts of these chemicals mixed in with the myriads of other 'natural occuring chemicals', our concern level drops substantially (but not entirely). There's cyanide in apple seeds, but eating one doesn't worry us. However, if the 'naturally occuring' cyanide is extracted, stripped away from the hundreds of other natural chemicals, isolated and put in my food - then that's not natural, and far more capable of causing harm than a whole/natural apple seed. And the synthetic version may be capable of even more harm.

:::going to check the original thread to see if I can clear up my confusion:::

Nope, now I'm even MORE confused...

Quote Originally Posted by ~Sue~Feb2012 View Post
Good evening
I have a question about acetoin as I've been trying to read this entire thread from the beginning to be informed. But I'm confused because on one page it's say not used, here On 1/12/2014

Then On 1/19/2014 it is used as the go-to?

I could be mis-reading stuff, or been reading too much fear-mongering elsewhere. I'll continue reading.

Thanks in advance for any enlightenment.

No you are not crazy, TYPO detected! The original statement should read diacetyl free, not acetoin free. We have detected quantities over the LOD for acetoin, but never for diacety (at least for lots in production tons of batches have made their way to the dumpster with amounts over the LOD with diacetyl in the past). The flavors with cream bases that have the potential for diacetyl have been eliminated and replaced with bases manufactured with acetoin as a substitute.

What would we do without you guys, covering our butts Good eye Sue!

So this appears that the acetoin is not there due to using a plant extract that happens to contain a bit, but rather it is a chemical that is added.

LOD = Limit of Detection (???)

:::sigh of frustration::: Chemists and 'naturalists' have entirely different beliefs on "chemicals", and we don't have time/energy for the always-inevitable-never-ending debate/discussion that's likely to ensue if we ask for clarification. Chemists typically believe that synthetics, isolates and those occuring naturally (in the midst of dozens/hundreds of other atural chemicals) - all have the same action in the body, while 'naturalists' disagree. So (typically) a chemist working with synthetic or chemical isolates may say they are 'natural ingredients' (because the same chemical does appear in nature).

Just saw the latest posts in this thread.

Such beating around the bush makes me grumpy. "Very limited quantities" in whose opinion? "Under the limits of detection" by what method? No actual numbers to report, hmpf. At least they were polite, but that's not enough to get my money.

EDIT: meant to add a THANK YOU to vangrl and we2 for trying to pry out the information!

We agree with HIC!...only it makes us VERY grumpy.

 

[we2rcool]

Such beating around the bush makes me grumpy. "Very limited quantities" in whose opinion? "Under the limits of detection" by what method? No actual numbers to report, hmpf. At least they were polite, but that's not enough to get my money.

EDIT: meant to add a THANK YOU to vangrl and we2 for trying to pry out the information!

'Welcome, of course - for what it's worth.

And (I'm sure I can speak for everyone) - major thanks to Sdh...for 'fighting the good fight' for YEARS!

 

[Sdh]

Hmm. The question still remains. It appears that Nude Nicotine claims they test but will not disclose the amounts. It means a lot to me to know the % of acetoin/diketones in a flavoring.

 

[RocketPuppy]

Don't want to start any conspiracy hubbub, but previously Jake has responded to posts frequently, within a day or two. He's been missing since April 9th. 2cool!! He went mia after your question. Did you2 turn him into porridge? I hope the IRS didn't nab him for tax evasion. I kid.

 

[RocketPuppy]

I've never been post #200 until now!!