All Flavoring Manufacturers: An Open Discussion

[Mr.Mann]

Well, I did the 3ml test mix; I have to say, it doesn't really taste too much like anything, though not bad, just bland. It might be because there's such a small amount of flavoring compared to what I'm used to -- it might be one of those tedious mixes that has to sit for EVAH to taste like anything. I added another drop of apple pie, and another drop of sweetener, and it's better, but still pretty blah. So then I added a drop of FA "Apple" directly to the dripper, and then it started to actually taste like something.

So I made a couple of changes to the recipe.

FA Apple Pie 3%
FA Apple 3%
CAP Cinn Danish Swirl v2 3%
TFA Vanilla Bean Gelato 2%
Flash 2%
Sweetener 2%

Haven't tried it yet, but based on the previous recipe and my extra drops here and there, this seems more promising. It's still only 15% flavoring, and 2% of that is Flash, which adds no flavor, just TH, so it still might be one of the tedious mixes that has to steep. I'm spoiled by Bill's High Flavor Mixes; steeping is stupid, having to wait to see if something tastes good, but in this case, it might be necessary.



Andria

It is kinda a bland flavor -- though it can overpower a mix if used too high -- but it works to augment a recipe when you are building a pie.

That said, you are right in that FA Flavors can be tedious sometimes, especially if used to mixing high numbers, becasue you often have to use so very little -- and that can be tricky. Once I found out that many of them worked better for me to be diluted prior to mixing, I was able to really shape my recipes without having to just add more flavoring -- it's actually the opposite.

I've said it before, but to me FA Apple Pie is basically just their cookie and apple. Not a very complex "apple pie" at all. But a drop here and there will work. I don't use it often, but when I do it has a very specific purpose -- almost like adding a baked note.

I have yet to find any Apple Pie flavoring that was all that special, but I do dig Cap's Apple Pie V2. FW's Dutch is nice, but it's just not quite right for what I want. It's sad too becasue it has all the fix'ns right out of the bottle.

 

[Mr.Mann]

If anyone here has opinion on this, let me know your thoughts..

How do you all feel about acetoin? I know it's not technically a diketone, but I have quite a few flavors that have it and when I bought them I wasn't really thinking about what had what. Now I am trying to figure out if I put it in that category (the liquids that sit off to the side for *occasional* use).

 

[GaryInTexas]

I use it. It's not my all day vape but acetoin in low volume is not a big concern to me.

 

[AndriaD]

If anyone here has opinion on this, let me know your thoughts..

How do you all feel about acetoin? I know it's not technically a diketone, but I have quite a few flavors that have it and when I bought them I wasn't really thinking about what had what. Now I am trying to figure out if I put it in that category (the liquids that sit off to the side for *occasional* use).

I avoid it along with diacetyl and acetyl propionyl, because the OSHA docs I read seemed to indicate that if acetoin is present, then there is a significant risk that diacetyl is also present, or somehow the acetoin can change into diacetyl? Not sure on that last, I'm no chemist by any means, but I know that heat can do major things to chemicals.

It may be paranoia, but with asthma, I just can't afford to take chances with my lungs, which is the only thing that makes it even a slight possibility that I might one day stop vaping. It certainly wouldn't be for a long time, I was much too long-term a smoker for that addiction to go away very quickly, but the possibility does exist, because of my asthma.

Andria

 

[AndriaD]

I did some reading in the recipes of Bill's Magic Vapor (and anyone who hasn't, you owe it to yourself!!), and found that he has a recipe called Dutch Apple Pie a la Mode, which is more or less what I'm trying to go for. Some of my ingredients are different, because they're not all TFA, but I've adapted his recipe to those flavors that I do have, and came up with this:

FA Apple 8%
FA Apple Pie 3%
TFA French Vanilla Crème 1%
TFA Vanilla Bean Gelato 2%
TFA Sweetener 4%
TFA Brown Sugar 2%
TFA CAP Butter 1%
CAP Graham Cracker 2.5%
CAP Cinnamon Danish Swirl v2 1.0%
SIG(TFA) Cinnamon Redhot 0.5%

Which comes to 25% flavoring, more what I'm used to; this one, I may actually be able to mix 'n vape, rather than having to let it sit for a while before I can taste anything. I'm thinking of mixing this up in a little while, and see if it's better.

Andria

 

[GaryInTexas]

TFA list their Butter as having Acetoin & Acetylpropionyl.

 

[AndriaD]

TFA list their Butter as having Acetoin & Acetylpropionyl.

This must be Capella, then. It doesn't have that characteristic odor, in fact it smells more like alcohol. With the 6ml bottles from BCV, they don't always have the mfr name on the bottle, just 'bullcityvapor.com'.

Andria

 

[MsGoddess2U]

I've ordered a ton of flavors and I just saw on their site that TFA Cheesecake has Diacetyl in it....?? So...I'm not safe vaping on this...??

 

[GaryInTexas]

I've ordered a ton of flavors and I just saw on their site that TFA Cheesecake has Diacetyl in it....?? So...I'm not safe vaping on this...??

TFA has Cheesecake (Graham Crust) which appears to not have the Diacetyl issues.

 

[MsGoddess2U]

TFA has Cheesecake (Graham Crust) which appears. to not have the Diacetyl issues.

As far as I know, I have the plain cheesecake. I don't understand the difference, I guess, on the chemicals...this is what found:
https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6657-cheesecake-flavor.aspx

 

[GaryInTexas]

As far as I know, I have the plain cheesecake. I don't understand the difference, I guess, on the chemicals...this is what found:
https://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/p-6657-cheesecake-flavor.aspx

TFA list your cheesecake as "Note: This flavor contains 'custard' ingredients: Acetoin & Acetylpropionyl." The Graham Crust Cheesecake is apparently made with different ingredients and does not have the same caution.
Perfumer's Apprentice

 

[MsGoddess2U]

TFA list your cheesecake as "Note: This flavor contains. 'custard' ingredients: Acetoin & Acetylpropionyl." The Graham Crust Cheesecake is apparently made with different ingredients and does not have the same caution.
Perfumer's Apprentice

Yah....except I already have the cheesecake one. Is it or is it not safe to vape? I was on a different site that had a clear warning against vaping a certain flavor that contained such things. The site I bought this off of doesn't make it so clear too those of us who are not knowledgeable in this area...I stumbled inn the info while trying to find a good percentage to start with

 

[Mr.Mann]

Yah....except I already have the cheesecake one. Is it or is it not safe to vape? I was on a different site that had a clear warning against vaping a certain flavor that contained such things. The site I bought this off of doesn't make it so clear too those of us who are not knowledgeable in this area...I stumbled inn the info while trying to find a good percentage to start with

Safe? It depends on whom you ask. Safe is a tough word to use in many respects. A lot of people vape with this stuff all the time and don't seem to have any problems with it. I used to vape with it in pemades, but that was also in a regular atty and not a dripper pumping out so much on one inhale. For me it's kinda like Kurt said in that once there is an issue or possible issue, it's like the fun gets zapped from it.

As far as resale sites go: some will have a warning/caution and other will not, even if for the same flavors. It's best to contact the manufacturers or read their sites for as much info as you can get (just ask them about diketones). Some do not want to vape flavorings with diketones and others have zero qualms with it. I don't think you should worry necessarily, but you definitely should continue to research as much as possible to make up your own mind. Be careful of that research coming from certain lay posters (like me) because we are mostly all figuring this stuff out as we go.

 

[AndriaD]

The issue with diketones is that, with diacetyl at least, and possibly acetoin and acetyl propionyl, there is the possibility of developing a condition called "popcorn lung" -- called that because the condition was first observed in those working in a factory that made microwave popcorn, including the "butter" flavoring, which contains diacetyl. This condition causes complete lung destruction; there is no cure, the only possible remedy is a lung transplant. There are very often no symptoms of this condition forming, until you're short of breath; by which time, it is too late to do a single thing about it -- except that lung transplant.

Is it certain? Not at all; some people inhale that stuff constantly and do not get it; and as many people will observe, there is actually more diacetyl in cigarette smoke than you would get from vaping -- but since we already know that cigarettes can be deadly, that's really no particularly recommendation, is it? Given the EXTREME nature of diketones' potential damage, I personally choose to avoid them wherever possible. Eating them is fine; no one is going to sit and eat margarine with a spoon all day and half the night -- but we do vape all day and half the night, inhaling that vapor purposefully, and to me, that is just too much exposure, and the potential risk too extreme and deadly. I quit smoking, partly, to improve my health, not make it worse.

But everyone has to decide for themselves if the risk is worth it. It's sort of like being struck by lightening -- very unlikely, but even once is probably too much.

Andria

 

[JD1]

Safe? It depends on whom you ask. Safe is a tough word to use in many respects. A lot of people vape with this stuff all the time and don't seem to have any problems with it. I used to vape with it in pemades, but that was also in a regular atty and not a dripper pumping out so much on one inhale. For me it's kinda like Kurt said in that once there is an issue or possible issue, it's like the fun gets zapped from it.

As far as resale sites go: some will have a warning/caution and other will not, even if for the same flavors. It's best to contact the manufacturers or read their sites for as much info as you can get (just ask them about diketones). Some do not want to vape flavorings with diketones and others have zero qualms with it. I don't think you should worry necessarily, but you definitely should continue to research as much as possible to make up your own mind. Be careful of that research coming from certain lay posters (like me) because we are mostly all figuring this stuff out as we go.

Very well said. My take on this is that the levels are way too low to be of any concern but just because I think that doesn't make it true. As others have said, do your research and make up your own mind.

 

[baseballmom]

Aw, I didn't find fa apple pie that bland, maybe a little, but it has potential once add in more apple and cinnamon, it's a nice base....I think fw churro could be good choice too, so, next session....mix together, mix with some different apples and see what develops from there....problem is, got a bunch of Apple's...golden, red, double, green....see what develops I guess.

 

[AndriaD]

Aw, I didn't find fa apple pie that bland, maybe a little, but it has potential once add in more apple and cinnamon, it's a nice base....I think fw churro could be good choice too, so, next session....mix together, mix with some different apples and see what develops from there....problem is, got a bunch of Apple's...golden, red, double, green....see what develops I guess.

I'm going to get that Shisha Golden Apple, at some point; someone said it's more like the baked apple flavor, rather than fresh. I haven't done anything more with my Apple Pie; I'm waiting till tomorrow when I get my wholecig WTA. The test batch I did yesterday didn't have any WTA, and I'm glad I was out so I didn't waste any. But what I had left of that test mix, I just put in the cabinet; I'll try it again in a week and see if it's improved any.

Andria

 

[baseballmom]

Yeah, I got that one too....but I'm really liking the smell of green and can't wait to try it out it just smells so darn good and so much potential imho, and know I already like double....it's just that baked taste a little different than crisp, fresh apple...just not sure if feeling the love for the smell of the shisha golden, I might not be used to such a concentrated apple...only way is to try it, soon I hope...can't wait to see how yours comes out

 

[Mr.Mann]

Very well said. My take on this is that the levels are way too low to be of any concern but just because I think that doesn't make it true. As others have said, do your research and make up your own mind.

And in the spirit of that topic, I got a little suspicious of two of my favorite Capella flavors today and called them. Also, when I saw AD's post that they had a butter flavor that wasn't showing up on BCV's site with diketones I was kinda surprised.

I got confirmation from them that these three do have AP/Acetoin:

Blueberry Cinnamon Crumble
Cinnamon Coffee Cake
Butter

Of course, if anyone would rather not take my word for it -- which is understandable and advisable -- call Capella directly and ask them. I have to say though, I am not going got wait for a V2 of Blueberry Cinnamon Crumble. I only use that flavor really low anyway and I like it just fine how it is. It's a bit irritating for me to find these things out after tirelessly working on recipes, but it is what it is.

Note: I sent an email to BCV to let them now that these flavors are unmarked on their site and they should contact Capella to get confirmation.

 

[AndriaD]

And in the spirit of that topic, I got a little suspicious of two of my favorite Capella flavors today and called them. Also, when I saw AD's post that they had a butter flavor that wasn't showing up on BCV's site with diketones I was kinda surprised.

I got confirmation from them that these three do have AP/Acetoin:

Blueberry Cinnamon Crumble
Cinnamon Coffee Cake
Butter

Of course, if anyone would rather not take my word for it -- which is understandable and advisable -- call Capella directly and ask them. I have to say though, I am not going got wait for a V2 of Blueberry Cinnamon Crumble. I only use that flavor really low anyway and I like it just fine how it is. It's a bit irritating for me to find these things out after tirelessly working on recipes, but it is what it is.

Note: I sent an email to BCV to let them now that these flavors are unmarked on their site and they should contact Capella to get confirmation.

Well, crap.

Have to say, I wasn't really that thrilled with that Blueberry Buckle thing with the BCC; the combo of cinnamon and blueberry doesn't hit me right or something; it tasted extremely metallic to me. So no great loss, other than the $1.15 or whatever I paid for it. But that annoys me about the Butter; that's the only Butter flavor BCV carries, and I don't think there is ANY other, which is diketone-free. Since that one is usually used in extremely minute quantities in the recipes I've seen, I might take a chance on it. Because otherwise I'll jsut have to sit on my hands and hope they make a V2 of it. Or TFA makes a DX.

Andria