All these threads regarding safety and regulations, and my ranting

[rockyroad]

I've got to mix up some juice now. Rocky, you use tobacco Absolute and what is "malto"?

I use 40 mg/ml nicotine in a 60/40 pg/vg or 70/30, and in 5 ml juice I usually use 1 40 microliter drop of FA Desert Ship, one of FA Cuban Supreme, one of dense menthol in PG, and 5 microliters of TA (the 50% dilute TA from PA). I sometimes add 1 40 microliter drop of FA "vape wizard", and am looking for something instead, to give a nice accent. I tried a few things without success, like PA honey flavor, it makes it too sweet and bland. Ideas?

The bakery bug? Tell me about it ... I crave butterfingers and waffle with vanilla custard and caramel buttered popcorn and ... Hey, wait a minute, why not just EAT. That's a novel idea. Oh, yeah, fat, waistline, I forgot. Sin. No way out.

I want young girls, and shiny guns,
Sniff buttered popcorn in the sun,
Big burgers, milkshakes and a pie
A margarita with some rye
And don't forget some ciggies too,
And half a tube of airplane glue
A little speedball and some crack
In case I'm sleepy driving back
I want a choice, so I don't lose
That uncontested right to choose

The T.A. was recommended by a real sweetheart veteran of the forum...from Samara Botane (rustica) I tried to post a link but the one I have went all weird on me. The malto is your Ethyl malto crystals diluted how ever you want. I can't do pg so I microwaved a teaspoon of crystals in a 30 ml. bottle of vg and Wally Gator it works. It's been 2 weeks and no crystals have reformed and it tastes just fine. I add a bit of distilled water and it's a good smokie just like that. Mix some hazelnut and toasted almond in with it and it's a real treat. A few grains of salt and you've got a story to tell.

I have a question that has bugged me for a week so hear it goes. How do we know the ethyl malto crystals we are dissolving and vaping are not re-crystallizing in our lungs? sorry, I know very little about chemistry and leave that to the experts. H2O, CO2 and MIA is about as far as it goes for me. I do appreciate a lot of these posts and discussions here on ECF. Believe it or not. I also appreciate the efforts of individuals and groups who do what they can to improve the quality of what we do.

Fernand, what you were saying about that feeling you have in your chest when vaping certain juices.....IMHO it is the butter! I have butter from Wiltons...Loranns....PA and FA. Personally when I vape straight butter...and I did vape all four just for the experience this last week, I got the tightness, coughing, and shortness of breath (like I just smoked a pack of ciggy's). I don't get this from the other bakery type..V.Custard or nutty and creamy...just the butter. I found I don't need the butter to get a nommy vape. So when I said I was vaping a buttery luscious treat....the buttery part was a combination of vanilla custard, french vanilla, marshmallow, caramel and waffle....I don't get that bad feeling from those flavors. All my real butters have gone to the dump. I'm done with butter...just got to go with what my body tells me.
Plus, if I add the TA mix (a very small percentage)to some of the bakery flavors, believe it or not this adds even more of a nommy effect to the vape allowing me to mix at a lighter percentage of flavors.

 

[shanagan]

Fernand & MistressNomad, as we've (all) discussed ad nauseum the numbers being crunched here are unlikely to either confirm or deny a safe level of diacetyl in our juice, that can only be done with laboratory testing mimicking the way we use these liquids. (I understand if the mathematical equations color your personal opinion to vape diacetyl/2,3pent containing juices - but I think we can safely move on to a larger discussion.)

I'd suggest we move away from those discussions and focus on what we all appear to agree upon:
-Vaping involves heating various liquids to a vapor and inhaling those vapors.
-Some vapers feel that basic levels of disclosure of what is going into those liquids is a good idea.
-Ultimately, vendor testing of liquids would be a good idea.
-Ultimately, vendor testing would probably be most easily and inexpensively accomplished if there were a voluntary vendor trade association within the US, such as ECITA in Europe.

Yes?

I bring this up because as the debate rages on "safe levels" of diacetyl inhalation, it does begin to look as if there are some people lobbying FOR diacetyl in liquids, and whether "you" want to vape it or not, I haven't seen anyone (save an obvious troll or two) say that we "should" be vaping it - only that they remain unconvinced that the levels present are dangerous. But whether or not you are convinced of its immediate or long-term danger, I think we all seem to agree that "you can vape whatever you want." And I assume it follows that for those of us that don't want to vape it, you allow us that there is no harm in disclosure.

But I hate that it continues to lead people to believe that M.Nomad wants diacetyl in juice, and I want an across-the-board ban of diacetyl-like substances. We're doing no one any good at this point and imho it's time to drop the hyperbole and need to "win" and start all over again. Because I firmly believe that we both (just using the two of us as examples) want the same thing - for this industry to survive.

I've got to head out for a while, so please don't take my upcoming silence as any kind of implied insult or approval - just going out to enjoy the beautiful fall weather for a bit.

 

[Automaton]

I wasn't debating that he has every right and reason to avoid diacetyl if he wishes. We have no established safe level, this is true.

But we DO have hard numbers of how much diacetyl is in any given mix using diacetyl-containing flavoring, and we also have medical history as to how long it takes for symptoms of harm to occur. There isn't really any theory in that. That's all I was saying. His numbers didn't line up with any known flavorings, and the speed of his symptoms don't indicate harm from diacetyl.

Sweet, buttery, dessert types flavors have more additives than any other type of flavoring. I'm not denying there is the potential for harm from diacetyl - just that he wouldn't be seeing it that quickly.

Just like one doesn't get lung cancer from smoking a week after starting. It is more likely that some other additive was causing his symptoms. Just like one may experience immediate breathing difficulties from smoking, if they are asthmatic (even if it is so slight that they never knew they had it before).

Both of these health problems can be caused by smoking, but they have drastically different time frames. The same may be true of diacetyl vs. other additives in these types of flavors.

I do agree with all your points. No argument there.

 

[Shan B]

Okay I'm not one to argue, but I will state some things. Some day after disclosure I'm sure we'll know what is what, and what does what. Still under 10 years into this industry, so it still has time (and us as the lab rats) to figure out what causes harm and what doesn't. Anywho.

People discuss this burning, like heart burn, and "dry cough". Ok... so my story and opinion on this. Am I dying? dunno. Will this have worse long term effects on my health? IDK. Is vaping TRULY safer than smoking? YES. On with my story. This burning throat dry cough. It could be from numerous things. PG, VG, Maltol, Diacetly, nicotine, etc. It could even mean ur dehydrated for all I know. So my point at hand right now. I have been vaping 43 days strong. I think more than that now. I vape anything under the sun. Ok except straight butter, cuz quite frankly I'm not huge on the pure butter, or even popcorn taste. I couldn't even name all of the flavors I've vaped. But I can however count on 1 hand all of the flavors my (ex) girlfriend vapes. Pear, Melon, Tea, Honey, and now Teaberry. Since day 4 of her vaping she's complained of that burny, dry heated cough. (my throat is always on fire from acid reflux, so i can't tell the difference). She didn't like experiencing this so we started doing a breakdown of WHAT is causing this throat irritation.

PG... gone... she is still only vaping 100% VG... still that sensation.
VG? tried 4 different VG nic suppliers, same problem.
Flavoring? hmmm vape THIS for 1 week, let me know how you feel...
still that hot burny almost irritating in the throat.
Ok so this cutting this, removing that has been going on for darn near a MONTH.

The ONLY thing that has cut her heat in her throat and dry cough is by her vaping 6mg nicotine. So maybe it is in the poison, I mean nicotine, we are vaping, maybe it's normal, maybe it's the maltol sugar, maybe. You really can't say unless you experiment with your own self. And at this point this is what I think. If people fear sickness or death from vaping, then instead of picking this company or this ingredient apart, why do it at all? Your lungs were intended for 1 thing. breathing oxygen. They weren't intended to inhale smoke, vapor, etc, etc... etc.. I understand people's concern about disclosure and all that, but who's to say it's the truth? I mean c'mon now. Look at the lies we are fed by our own FDA! Look at what geo-engineering is doing to our eco system, and our human race.

This is self infliction that I "choose" to do, because I am addicted to nicotine. It's a choice we're all making. But if people feel this stuff is all that bad, don't do it. Problem solved, but TRUST me, when I say the air you breath isn't ANY worse than what vaping is doing.

I'm not a scare monger by any means, but just take this into thought when breathing what some consider "fresh air" (no matter what island you move to, you're STILL breathing it. These 2 chemicals are ADMITTED to being dumped by billions of gallons per DAY in our atmosphere.

Barium Sulfate Barium is the precursor to cyanide, when mixed with carbon and nitrogen. This is poisoning your soil and water, and YOU.

Aluminum This is the cause of Alzheimer's disease, as well as a major contributing factor in Autism and Schizophrenia. Heavy metal/chemical poisoning is the trigger for all auto-immune disorders, as well as cancer.

Scientific tests are done in areas that are known to be dumped with this but the disclosure is hidden from people who don't look for it, included in these tests found these as well:

Mycobacterium Mycobacterium is H5N1, or the bird flu. According to the scientists, they have found this bacterium in the air while the spray operations were taking place. As the aluminum and barium fell, so did Mycobacterium. You are being sprayed with H5N1, which is a disorder designed to turn you into a hypochondriac. You have tons of symptoms, but none can be diagnosed properly, due to the lack of a test by a doctor for the bird flu. Your tendons swell, you ache, you stay sick constantly and cannot figure out why.

Agrobacterium Agrobacterium is a parasitic fungus, similar to candida. You breathe it in, and it attaches to your skin cells while inserting T-DNA into your skin and any organic plant that is not resistant to its effect. It causes tumors and DNA modification, which kills plants and anything else that it attaches to. THIS BACTERIA IS THE CAUSE OF MORGELLON'S DISEASE, which over 14,000 FAMILIES NOW HAVE DUE TO THE SPRAY. This disease was not even named until 2002, when families suddenly started to catch a strange red patch on their skin. They have now found that Agrobacterium is the cause of this. You are being sprayed with bacteria, said to be used for "global warming."

We're doing so much to get disclosure on what's in liquid we choose to vape, yet MOST of you probably don't even question what's in the air you breath, that is REQUIRED to keep on living. To me that's just ridiculous.

One thing is inevitable. We're all going to die, some of us are just trying to get a few extra years out of it, some of us just want to find happiness and live in the moment. Some of us just want to hide in lies told to us so it makes us feel safe and better. And some of us just want to not care and take risks. I just can't comprehend how you all can attack companies for making something you CHOOSE to do, but turn your cheek when a theory such as "chemtrails" or what those UAV/drone aircrafts are REALLY doing up in the sky.

I don't believe a lot of things so I surely wouldn't believe disclosure if it were hand fed to me on a silver platter. The 1 thing I find to be true, no matter how honest a company is (that is making money) they ALL have lies and secrets.

One day it's good for you, one day it'll kill you.

I'll take this dry hacky nothing of a cough over coughing my lungs full of tar anyday. But also know, if smoking, vaping, the air and the water don't kill you, something will.

I say to each is their own. I just know my only wish is to see my son graduate, but who's to say all of existence will even be here in 10 yrs? NO ONE KNOWS. So with that said. Live life a day at a time. Enjoy it, because you only live once. If I stopped eating or drinking things that contained chemicals or things bad for you. I'd be one dehydrated and starving B.

I could get extremely theoretical, but it's pointless.

A great man once said:
"If a (wo)man spent their entire life pondering the meaning of life; on ur deathbed u may, or may not, realize that u wasted ur whole life by trying to understand it instead of living it" ~Anonymous ECF member


Religions, Theories, Hypothetically, Literally, and all that other crap. I just want to live MY life one day at a time... and if I choose to VAPE, that's my choice. If I choose to NOT, that is my choice.

Another thing. I am soooo sick of people coming down on MistressNomad for her opinion, you make urself look like a fool for personally attacking her then expecting her to not reply in the same manner. that's just my look from the other side of the fence. Treat others as YOU want to be treated.

VAPE ON!​

 

[Shan B]

I also wanted to note. Please don't think of me as arrogant by any means, because I used to get so far into researching that it made me OCD and fearful of EVERYTHING I consumed or used.

As the disclosures do roll in. I read them, so I am AWARE. but in my heart and what I know to be true. Is the fact that companies do lie, and do hide things. We will never be 100% sure unless we have 50+ yrs of research.

All I'm saying, it's way too soon to know for FACT what does what. We all agree diacetyl IS lethal. FACT! but at what trace amounts to humans? We just don't know.

If I find a healthier vape will I choose that? I'll try, because I switched to vaping over smoking because I wanted the healthier alternative to nicotine. What is the safest? to give up the addiction as a whole. Will I ever overcome this? I don't know.

Nothing I say is a personal attack on anyone, but when it comes to health. Some people just have no idea how unhealthy we all are, outside of vaping. I'm more concerned with choice over force.

 

[Panini]

WARNING: LONG-WINDED POST CONTAINING PERSONAL STATEMENTS

Essentially, we are all "guinea pigs" right now. But that also puts us in the unique position, as consumers, to ask for industry standards. And while I agree wholeheartedly that there are thousands of mystery chemicals we are exposing ourselves to every day, I don’t see why that should automatically mean we shouldn’t care what we’re putting into our bodies on purpose.

I think diacetyl has become the poster child for a larger discussion on vendor ethics, industry regulation and transparency. When these three things start to creep into the discussion, we tend to see personal/emotional responses. But at the very least, we all want this industry to -- not only survive -- but improve. And at least that's a starting point. By saying consumers should not feel open to questioning companies, or communicating their frustrations when a company does not take their concerns seriously is a slippery slope, and actually impedes that process.

I’ll give you an example from my own personal background: I'm definitely not a "chemophobe" (I have a hard time believing many ex-smokers are), but I do like to know what I'm exposed to. I'm a new mother and as such, want the best possible care for my child. In 2009, a report came out that revealed the presence of "potential" cancer-causing chemicals in some of the most popular baby washes and shampoos. These chemicals were not listed in the ingredients on the packaging. Now I certainly do not want my child exposed to this type of chemical and, without any kind of disclosure, how am I to know if it's there? Well, luckily, a consumer advocacy board pushed the information to the public, prompting Johnson and Johnson to release statements about the levels of the chemical, etc. etc. Did they remove it? No. They feel it is at a safe level. But because a consumer advocacy board decided it was important for parents to know, I can now make the choice not to use it.

Let's say I contacted the company directly and asked them if their product contained this ingredient and they assured me it didn't. Is that okay? Am I supposed to suck it up and not communicate this with other mothers? Should I just choose not to bathe my child with soap? Mix up some animal fats and ashes and have at it? I guess I could…but I don’t see why that has to be my “best” option. So if I am a “concerned” consumer, I need to know which companies use these chemicals and how to avoid them. I also feel some degree of responsibility to share this information with other mothers. If those other mothers choose to continue using these products, it’s not my business. But it IS my business whether or not I choose to use those products. In other words, my best option is probably to examine to product I'm using...not to examine whether or or not I choose to bathe my child with soap.

What about driving? How many cars have been recalled over the years? Are we supposed to simply choose not to drive because it’s just generally unsafe? Some might say so. But the majority would think it more preferable to know what the potential problems are, and have them fixed, so they can continue driving with an increased measure of safety.

I like vaping. I think it is the one thing that has helped me quit smoking cigarettes. I would prefer to continue doing it. But I would like to know what I’m vaping. Arbitrarily tossing around the “vape or don’t vape” statements don’t help the discussion and certainly don’t get us anywhere as consumers. They limit our options.

 

[Antwoord]

-Ultimately, vendor testing of liquids would be a good idea.
-Ultimately, vendor testing would probably be most easily and inexpensively accomplished if there were a voluntary vendor trade association within the US, such as ECITA in Europe.

Awesome Shan How do we effect these things?

(When is the last time a baby offered you a job? Huh? )

 

[warbdan]

Shan B, you forgot to mention that our beef cattle are force fed corn and injected with hormones causing it to be full of e coli, and the chicken farmers grow the chickens so big, so fast that they can't stand up. Oh, yeah, vegetables aren't safe to eat anymore because Monsanto uses e coli to genetically modify the plants and their seeds. Knowing this I've stopped eating beef, chicken, and pork and I buy my vegetables from local farmers. Why on earth should I be expected to continue ordering e-liquid if a vendor can't tell me if it contains a KNOWN dangerous chemical? I'd like to be able to make that decision for myself. Until we get full disclosure I will only order from vendors that disclose what's in their liquids. A lot of people here feel the same way and shouldn't be made to feel bad about it by others. Now, I'm done beating a dead horse.

 

[Fernand]

There is a difference between critically discussing experimental results and blurring the issues based on UFO folklore and the like. I'm sorry but i have no idea in what world barium is a precursor to cyanide, and aluminum is known to cause alzheimer's. If the idea is that we are surrounded by threats and so it's useless to distinguish degrees, to take measurements, to reason and reduce risk where it's practical to do so, this line of thinking is not for me. I don't see it as a form of freedom, it's a comprehensible reaction to information overload, but one that strikes me as defeatist and ultimately passive. In that context it's hopeless to aim for more understanding, though in reality we can actually do pretty well if we address things one at a time.

Of course we can't tackle everything in one step. But it seems that while medicine and science make advances, an increasing proportion of the general population retreats into we-can't-knowism and astrology. It's not hard to understand why authoritarians would think force is the only way to protect the flock, if debate and disclosure just confuse them and cause anxiety.

 

[shanagan]

I wasn't debating that he has every right and reason to avoid diacetyl if he wishes. We have no established safe level, this is true.

But we DO have hard numbers of how much diacetyl is in any given mix using diacetyl-containing flavoring, and we also have medical history as to how long it takes for symptoms of harm to occur. There isn't really any theory in that. That's all I was saying. His numbers didn't line up with any known flavorings, and the speed of his symptoms don't indicate harm from diacetyl.

Sweet, buttery, dessert types flavors have more additives than any other type of flavoring. I'm not denying there is the potential for harm from diacetyl - just that he wouldn't be seeing it that quickly.

Er, no proof on your side or his, but whatever.

Just like one doesn't get lung cancer from smoking a week after starting. It is more likely that some other additive was causing his symptoms. Just like one may experience immediate breathing difficulties from smoking, if they are asthmatic (even if it is so slight that they never knew they had it before).

Both of these health problems can be caused by smoking, but they have drastically different time frames. The same may be true of diacetyl vs. other additives in these types of flavors.

Really? REALLY? Source, then, please. Didn't you get that this is NOT necessary AND you have no source? Why go this route again???

I do agree with all your points. No argument there.

sigh. yay.

 

[shanagan]

Thanks so much for your valuable input. Trust me, I do not think you are arrorant. Let's just vape it all and HOPE/WISH/BELIEVE it's better than the air we breathe. Good plan. Yay, vendors! Kick it, make it super-tasty and make millions!!

I've had it. Either act like an adult, or don't.

But don't try to make ME a child. Sit at the kids table and ignore the discussions going on in the next room. But don't try to make us fools because we're talking about the pinata you're calling a donkey.

It won't work. And it's absurd. I hope you get a LOT of free juice for this. Enough to make up for whatever is to come.

 

[HeatherC]

This was the original question, I figured I would make it strictly about vaping.

heres the original

If it was 100% proven that vaping is bad for your health, similar to analogs, would you quit vaping?

Considering that I would NOT have quit analogs without going to the PV no I would not. I wouldn't have quit smoking either tho....And I've tried repeatedly... I have been 100% analog free for 144 days.....since i smoked about 3 packs a day that translates to 8212 cigarettes I have NOT smoked. That means I have not inhaled tar and carbon monoxide 8212 times.....it means that those same number of times I have avoided 4000+ carcinogenic chemicals that ARE in cigarettes. Cigarette smoking has been proven to be harmful to ones health and I COULD not stop that. In the 144 days I've been using the PV I have gone from using 36mg of nicotine in my juice to using between 12mg and 9 mg. It is not even comparable to analog smoking......would you go out to your car and suck on the tail pipe while it was running for 10 minutes? Carbon Monoxide inhalation is hazardous to your health. Nicotine is according to 2 of my doctors about as harmful to your health as caffeine so No I'm not gonna get excited quitting vaping. I didn't intend to reduce my nicotine intake either... dizziness and headaches decided that for me.... I don't get those at 12 mg.....will I reduce again if I start getting headaches yes. but I won't stop vaping.

 

[shanagan]

Awesome Shan How do we effect these things?

(When is the last time a baby offered you a job? Huh? )

Ant, lol, but.. We affect by being loud, and continuous, and not letting segments shout us down with hyperbole and 'internet baddass syndrome'. We force a change in the entire industry by refusing to be fangirls/boys to an extent that we've sold our souls. We remember that if the vendors don't care about vaper's health, SOMEONE has to. So why not us? Why not shout it from the rooftops? What did YOU lose by doing so? Free juice? Shipping?
What is your soul worth once you realize this may equal death? Oh. Well, who needs a soul anywhere?

 

[Antwoord]

Blah, nevermind

 

[Antwoord]

Ant, lol, but.. We affect by being loud, and continuous, and not letting segments shout us down with hyperbole and 'internet baddass syndrome'. We force a change in the entire industry by refusing to be fangirls/boys to an extent that we've sold our souls. We remember that if the vendors don't care about vaper's health, SOMEONE has to. So why not us? Why not shout it from the rooftops? What did YOU lose by doing so? Free juice? Shipping?
What is your soul worth once you realize this may equal death? Oh. Well, who needs a soul anywhere?

Oh, right on. I think it is probably a good way to be informative for those that don't know about the issue, and I do hope it keeps evolving.

 

[Automaton]

shanagan - You have the link to FlavourArt's diacetyl-containing flavors right in your sig. All you have to do to work out the hard numbers is look at it.

We know, and every link you provide, including the second in your sig, shows this, that harm from diacetyl (bronchiolitis obliterans)
1. Take time to develop
2. DOES NOT go away when you stop being exposed to diacetyl. The damage is permanent.

Given those factors, it is clear that what Fernand is suffering from isn't from diacetyl.

Most additives added to juice are sweeteners, or buttery. So obviously, they are mostly in sweet, dessert-y, or buttery flavors. That's not much of a logic leap.

You keep insisting we should try to come to an agreement, but you're disagreeing with me seemingly for the sake of it when you have the proof that I'm correct in your own links.

 

[Panini]

shanagan - You have the link to FlavourArt's diacetyl-containing flavors right in your sig. All you have to do to work out the hard numbers is look at it.

We know, and every link you provide, including the second in your sig, shows this, that harm from diacetyl (bronchiolitis obliterans)
1. Take time to develop
2. DOES NOT go away when you stop being exposed to diacetyl. The damage is permanent.

Given those factors, it is clear that what Fernand is suffering from isn't from diacetyl.

Perhaps bronchiolitis obliterans takes time to develop, and the damage is definitely permanent. But the intermittent exposure study on mice showed lesions and peribronchial lymphocytic inflammation…even at the lowest concentration and after 2 - 4 weeks. It’s not out of the question that it could be slightly irritating. Though you’re right…we don’t have proof either way.

Also, while helpful, I would hardly refer to the FA disclosure list as “hard numbers”. They suggest what’s in the flavor concentrate, but you have no way of knowing how much is actually being used in the final product, or what mixtures are being used together.

Again, not trying to be confrontational. Just participating in the discussion.

 

[Edwv30]

There is a difference between critically discussing experimental results and blurring the issues based on UFO folklore and the like. I'm sorry but i have no idea in what world barium is a precursor to cyanide, and aluminum is known to cause alzheimer's. If the idea is that we are surrounded by threats and so it's useless to distinguish degrees, to take measurements, to reason and reduce risk where it's practical to do so, this line of thinking is not for me. I don't see it as a form of freedom, it's a comprehensible reaction to information overload, but one that strikes me as defeatist and ultimately passive. In that context it's hopeless to aim for more understanding, though in reality we can actually do pretty well if we address things one at a time.

Of course we can't tackle everything in one step. But it seems that while medicine and science make advances, an increasing proportion of the general population retreats into we-can't-knowism and astrology. It's not hard to understand why authoritarians would think force is the only way to protect the flock, if debate and disclosure just confuse them and cause anxiety.

Well said. It would be humorous if the issue wasn't so serious. We get accused of pushing conspiracies and of being "alarmists" for demanding disclosure and they respond to our concerns with posts about "contrails" and the, (long debunked myth), of aluminum and Alzheimer disease. I am still trying to figure out the connection to Diacetyl.

Trying to stay on track...Diacetyl is a dangerous chemical and suppliers need to tell us if it's being used in their juices. <----I hate to keep saying the same thing but this thread constantly gets derailed.

 

[Automaton]

Panini - The exposure levels tested on mice were higher than those found in any factory, and given to a much smaller animal. But even if that weren't the case, SYMPTOMS of the damage show up after significant damage has been done. That's why people only found out they had it when it was somewhat advanced.

To identify lung damage, Fernand would need to get a medical exam. But his symptoms don't sound at all diacetyl-related.

Well, you can choose to simply not believe the numbers FlavourArt gives, but that puts us back at square one of having no information. I see no reason why that's useful. Considering that some of the levels are quite high pre-dilution, I wouldn't think they would be lying. If they were, they wouldn't have such a high number (1.5, I believe) by butter flavoring. It's not good for their PR.

Those numbers are not the kind of numbers that indicate a lie, given some of the low concentrations that are questionable.

You can work out the hard number in any given mix by simply picking your percentage.

 

[Panini]

Well, you can choose to simply not believe the numbers FlavourArt gives, but that puts us back at square one of having no information. I see no reason why that's useful. Considering that some of the levels are quite high pre-dilution, I wouldn't think they would be lying. If they were, they wouldn't have such a high number (1.5, I believe) by butter flavoring. It's not good for their PR.

Those numbers are not the kind of numbers that indicate a lie, given some of the low concentrations that are questionable.

You can work out the hard number in any given mix by simply picking your percentage.

Let me clarify: I am NOT suggesting that the FA list is a lie. What I mean is that you have no way of knowing how much an e-liquid vendor who USES those flavors is putting in their product. You also have no way of knowing if they are mixing two or more flavors which contain diacetyl.

As for the diacetyl-leading-to-sudden-symptoms argument, I only suggested that it wasn't out of the question that vaping it repeatedly throughout the day could be irritating. I acknowledged that there was absolutely no proof either way, but perhaps it shouldn't just be dismissed as an automatic "no".

ETA: I realize now you are strictly talking about DIY using the FA flavors. Gotcha.