Another no nicotine hiring policy

[Crumpet]

Playing Devils Advocate .. an analog ban on hiring is not unreasonable, IMO .. after all, we I'm sure can all agree they are bad on many levels .. so, the question is, how can an employer differentiate nic use between an analog and a PV .. ??

I'm sorry, I simply cannot get on board with that as long as cigarettes and other tobacco products are legally sold and readily available anywhere you go. For one thing, it means that in order to feed and house yourself you have to be willing to allow a company that only pays you for 8 hours a day to control what you do with the all time you are NOT BEING PAID.

Secondly, I'm sick of this government trying to have the best of both worlds: depending on the insane revenue they get from cigarette sales, all the while making sure they are legally sold in any gas station, drug store, or grocery store you step foot in. They want to pretend to want to eradicate smoking but since they are dependent on the $$ it generates it is highly doubtful that this is something they really want. At the same time they will allow you to be treated like the scum of the earth as a token of appreciation for your monetary contribution to the economy. Not to mention that by dying sooner you actually save money in the long run. People living the longest are actually the ones using more services and generating more health care costs.

 

[Traver]

Playing Devils Advocate .. an analog ban on hiring is not unreasonable, IMO .. after all, we I'm sure can all agree they are bad on many levels .. so, the question is, how can an employer differentiate nic use between an analog and a PV .. ??

Nor is unreasonable for them to monitor what you eat, obesity also cost them money. In fact why would be unreasonable for them to forbid any activity that would cost them money. Engaging in sports for instance can cause physical injury.

 

[Vocalek]

Playing Devils Advocate .. an analog ban on hiring is not unreasonable, IMO .. after all, we I'm sure can all agree they are bad on many levels .. so, the question is, how can an employer differentiate nic use between an analog and a PV .. ??

You realize, of course, that this issue had to be faced when pharmaceutical companies were testing so-called nicotine replacement therapy (NRT) products such as the patch, gum, lozenges, and nicotine inhalers. The researchers need to be able to verify smoking status, but they couldn't use nicotine to do so because their product was keeping nicotine levels elevated in the body.

So smoking cessation research has used "exhaled carbon monoxide" testing to verify smoking status.

Elsevier
Testing for Carbon Monoxide in Exhaled Breath
Breath CO
http://dev.ersnet.org/uploads/Document/e1/WEB_CHEMIN_2567_1194523664.pdf

Addendum

Cigarette smoke. The presence of CO indicates combustion of organic compounds, and so is found in all smoke involving burning of tobacco, or any other plant material, such as wood smoke and ......... smoke.

The e-cigarette. Shows no increase in expired CO. The absence of any such effect from the e-cigarette shows that combustion does not occur – as confirmed by the lack of flame or smoke. As nicotine has a low vapor pressure, the piezoelectric ceramic element in the e-cigarette is needed to cause vaporization of the nicotine-propylene glycol solution. Cigarette smoke is produced by combustion at temperatures of up to1000 degrees Centigrade, which is highly destructive, breaking up tobacco into free radicals and many small harmful gas molecules such as carbon monoxide, butadiene, benzene etc.

Conclusion. Mist from the e-cigarette is created by vaporizing a liquid, while smoke is created by incinerating plant material. Mist and smoke differ profoundly in composition and safety profile.

http://www.ecigarettedirect.co.uk/extra info/e-cigarette-safety-report.pdf
The test report was compiled by Dr. Murray Laugesen of Health New Zealand.

 

[rothenbj]

Playing Devils Advocate .. an analog ban on hiring is not unreasonable, IMO .. after all, we I'm sure can all agree they are bad on many levels .. so, the question is, how can an employer differentiate nic use between an analog and a PV .. ??

So are Twinkees, alcohol, obesity and motorcycles. Social engineering is bad on many levels also, but none of that bothers me. I no longer work and, in relative terms, don't have that long to live in this new Utopian world some envision. I just hope I'm gone before the revolution.

I was watching a news report this morning talking about the quick evaporation of the middle class. The contention was that the rich are getting richer, the poor poorer and the middle is finding their place within those two groups with the majority dropping into the lowest economic class.

 

[RickHerron]

*DISCLAIMER - THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION PERTAINS PRIMARILY TO TOBACCO USE, BUT CONTAINS GOOD DATA ABOUT THE DANGERS AND SIDE-AFFECTS OF NICOTINE DEPENDENCY AS WELL*

I use a little tobacco (now) AND vape high-nic e-liquid regularly (around 2.5 ml daily of 24 mg nic). I AM AN ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE ADVOCATE...the following link is purely for informational purposes, and IMO, addresses the concerns and purported hiring practices of many employers today, governmental as well as private sector.

Nicotine dependence - MayoClinic.com

AGAIN...I AM FOR E-CIGS, SO PLEASE SAVE ANY HATE FOR SOMEONE DESERVING. THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.

PS - I know that this thread and the last post prior to mine are a little dated, but I figured someone else might stumble across it as I did, and might find this information, which is NOT dated at the time of my posting, helpful. I'm sure it's found elsewhere on these forums, but I found it, so others might, too.

 

[FsckCigs]

Someone needs to put pharma and their little bro BT on this. For once put that machinery to good use...

Think I'll work on that...

And agreed 110% on the obesity point.

 

[DaveP]

This is funny. Maybe the stats show negative numbers on health issues with smokers. I just retired from a 36 year stint with a major company. I missed 7 days sick until a couple of years ago when my appendix went South. I wanted to go back later that week, but the company medical unit was monitoring me and communicating with the doctor while I was out on temporary disability. The doc said 14 days, so I ended up with 21 days sick in 36 years at retirement!

That's .58 days per year. I had non-smoking co-workers who missed 6 to 10 sick days in a year or two because they had a sniffle or just didn't feel good enough to come to work. I don't know how they tally the stats sometimes.

I agree that the actuarial tables should come onto play. I used to hate it when non-smokers commented on my smoking being bad for me. I'd always say, "Let's compare sick days".

 

[DC2]

...the following link is purely for informational purposes, and IMO, addresses the concerns and purported hiring practices of many employers today, governmental as well as private sector.

Nicotine dependence - MayoClinic.com

I read the whole thing...

I am not clear on what part of that addresses any concerns that justify these hiring practices.
Can you clarify?

Smoking? Yes, I can understand the argument.
But nicotine use? No.

 

[RickHerron]

I read the whole thing...

I am not clear on what part of that addresses any concerns that justify these hiring practices.
Can you clarify?

Smoking? Yes, I can understand the argument.
But nicotine use? No.

Certainly. From - Nicotine dependence: Causes - MayoClinic.com

"Nicotine is the chemical in tobacco that keeps you smoking. Nicotine is very addictive. It increases the release of brain chemicals called neurotransmitters, which help regulate mood and behavior. One of these neurotransmitters is dopamine, which makes you feel good. Getting that dopamine boost is part of the addiction process."

As you can imagine, any substances that could possibly "regulate mood and behavior" might be of some concern to a potential employer, IMO.

PS - I DO know that if deprived of my nicotine (analog OR e-cig nic) for any length of time, I BECOME A BEAR! Others might, too...I'm just saying...

 

[RickHerron]

Please let me be totally clear as to my position on this whole matter.

I would NEVER not hire ANYONE because of their choice to use nicotine, REGARDLESS of their method of choice. BUT, I DO see how some employers MIGHT have a problem with it due to the medical facts about nicotine.

*I'm not being hostile by capitalizing certain words...just EMPHASIZING them as a substitute for vocal inflection, which is impossible to do on forums.*

 

[PaulB]

And to top it off, people who give up nicotine often become overweight or obese. One study showed that females gain as much as 20 pounds.

This seldom gets mentioned, but I think it is significant in the obesity picture-- perhaps not only the gained weight of those who give it up, but also the weights of the hugely increased percentage who never take it up in the first place. Obviously, this is not to argue that taking up nicotine is a good health decision. On the other hand, wouldn't it be a hoot if vaporized nicotine were to invite large studies like the recently-announced one about coffee, and, like the coffee results, nicotine (when not smoked) turned out to have life-lengthening effects?

As far as the "will be next" arguments go (fatty foods, alcohol, etc.), it won't happen. Insurers, regulators, and legislators cast a blind eye on the substances they like and go after the ones they don't. At least that's the way I see it.

 

[rothenbj]

Rick has a desire to go back to smoking. In fact he said he already had in a previous post. What in this three paragraph comment had him bring highlighting to his post, I'm not quite sure since it had nothing to do with the OP. However, in the interests of dissecting what the Mayo clinic published-

Nicotine dependence is an addiction to tobacco products caused by the drug nicotine. Nicotine dependence — also referred to as tobacco dependence — means you can't stop using the substance, even though it's causing you harm. While it's the nicotine in tobacco that causes nicotine dependence, the toxic effects come mainly from other substances in tobacco. Smokers have much higher rates of heart disease, stroke and cancer than do nonsmokers.

Okay, nicotine like every "drug", like caffeine or sugar, cause dependence and make it difficult to stop using them. I've watched caffeine addicts that can't function until they get their "fix", even though they cause you harm. The next sentence indicates that the toxic effects come mainly from other "substances in tobacco". Do they go into detail about these other substances? No, they jump to smoking. We all know that smoking is bad for you (except Rick who has gone back to smoking). What this paragraph doesn't expound upon is how much damage is caused by using nicotine/tobacco from sources other than smoking.

We know, for instance, that replacing smoking with snus usage puts your risk at practically the same level as quitting tobacco use totally. I'm pretty sure the same will be found out about E cigs. It certainly is true for many of the newer tobacco products- Ariva, Stonewalls and Orbs for example.

Nicotine produces physical and mood-altering effects in your brain that are temporarily pleasing. These effects make you want to use tobacco and lead to dependence. At the same time, stopping tobacco use causes withdrawal symptoms, including irritability and anxiety.

Put sugar and caffeine in that paragraph replacing nicotine and you have the same truth.

Many effective treatments for nicotine dependence are available to help you manage withdrawal and stop smoking for good. Ask your doctor for help.

An outright lie unless you consider a 2% quit rate after 20 months. I know, I quit smoking many, many times. However, only this last time did it ever work.

This will be my final comment on this topic in this thread. This isn't hate Rick, it's just pointing out the obvious. As they said in the Army, "Smoke 'em if you got 'em". It's really time to withdraw.

 

[RickHerron]

As far as the "will be next" arguments go (fatty foods, alcohol, etc.), it won't happen. Insurers, regulators, and legislators cast a blind eye on the substances they like and go after the ones they don't. At least that's the way I see it.

ABSOLUTELY!!! Most insurers, regulators, and legislators are in the "desk job" category, IMO. Without good exercise plans, using the types of substances mentioned above combined with having "desk jobs" can have a tendency to make folks fat. The restrictive nature of that type of job can certainly lead to weight gain if you don't FIGHT it with exercise.

I've had desk jobs - I've been fat.

*I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT EVERYBODY - I'M TALKING ABOUT A LOT OF PEOPLE, THOUGH*

 

[RickHerron]

rothenbj,

"Another no nicotine hiring policy" - OP

They are going to check your body for nicotine...like drug testing.

Why must I get "slapped" EVERY TIME I MAKE A POST on ECF. I came across and read the OP and subsequent posts, and provided VERIFIABLE info from a reputable source (THE MAYO CLINIC) on WHY THERE MIGHT BE SOME CONCERN.

PLEASE tell me what I did wrong...or do you just have a problem with ANYBODY who has ANY information on nicotine that doesn't make it look like candy?

I LIKE NICOTINE...HELL, I LOVE NICOTINE...NICOTINE IS FREAKING AWESOME.

 

[PaulB]

Certainly. From - Nicotine dependence: Causes - MayoClinic.com

"Nicotine is the chemical in tobacco that keeps you smoking. Nicotine is very addictive. It increases the release of brain chemicals called neurotransmitters, which help regulate mood and behavior. One of these neurotransmitters is dopamine, which makes you feel good. Getting that dopamine boost is part of the addiction process."

As you can imagine, any substances that could possibly "regulate mood and behavior" might be of some concern to a potential employer, IMO.

PS - I DO know that if deprived of my nicotine (analog OR e-cig nic) for any length of time, I BECOME A BEAR! Others might, too...I'm just saying...

I must be missing something as I don't understand the concern (see the sentence I bolded). Smoking is an old social custom. I'm old enough to remember the days when close to half the adult population smoked. I'm old enough to have had an office where I could smoke. There may have been some causes for employer concern-- fire hazard, odor, stained walls and ceilings, perhaps (in later years) the health or longevity of the smoker. But I've never heard of employer concerns raised about the "mood and behavior" of a smoking employee, or a nicotine-deprived one. Nicotine may be psychotropic, but it's not that psychotropic.

 

[RickHerron]

Just forget i said anything at all. I told myself I would never post here again. I did, and look what I got. Sorry, pipe dreamers.

 

[RickHerron]

Just in case you missed what started this fiasco:

*DISCLAIMER - THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION PERTAINS PRIMARILY TO TOBACCO USE, BUT CONTAINS GOOD DATA ABOUT THE DANGERS AND SIDE-AFFECTS OF NICOTINE DEPENDENCY AS WELL*

I use a little tobacco (now) AND vape high-nic e-liquid regularly (around 2.5 ml daily of 24 mg nic). I AM AN ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE ADVOCATE...the following link is purely for informational purposes, and IMO, addresses the concerns and purported hiring practices of many employers today, governmental as well as private sector.

Nicotine dependence - MayoClinic.com

AGAIN...I AM FOR E-CIGS, SO PLEASE SAVE ANY HATE FOR SOMEONE DESERVING. THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.

PS - I know that this thread and the last post prior to mine are a little dated, but I figured someone else might stumble across it as I did, and might find this information, which is NOT dated at the time of my posting, helpful. I'm sure it's found elsewhere on these forums, but I found it, so others might, too.

 

[RickHerron]

As well as:

please let me be totally clear as to my position on this whole matter.

I would never not hire anyone because of their choice to use nicotine, regardless of their method of choice. But, i do see how some employers might have a problem with it due to the medical facts about nicotine.

*i'm not being hostile by capitalizing certain words...just emphasizing them as a substitute for vocal inflection, which is impossible to do on forums.*

Even with the disclaimer, I get slapped around.

 

[RickHerron]

WHAT PART OF :

*DISCLAIMER - THE FOLLOWING INFORMATION PERTAINS PRIMARILY TO TOBACCO USE, BUT CONTAINS GOOD DATA ABOUT THE DANGERS AND SIDE-AFFECTS OF NICOTINE DEPENDENCY AS WELL*

I use a little tobacco (now) AND vape high-nic e-liquid regularly (around 2.5 ml daily of 24 mg nic). I AM AN ELECTRONIC CIGARETTE ADVOCATE...the following link is purely for informational purposes, and IMO, addresses the concerns and purported hiring practices of many employers today, governmental as well as private sector.

Nicotine dependence - MayoClinic.com

AGAIN...I AM FOR E-CIGS, SO PLEASE SAVE ANY HATE FOR SOMEONE DESERVING. THANK YOU. THAT IS ALL.

PS - I know that this thread and the last post prior to mine are a little dated, but I figured someone else might stumble across it as I did, and might find this information, which is NOT dated at the time of my posting, helpful. I'm sure it's found elsewhere on these forums, but I found it, so others might, too.

...MAKES YOU SO HOSTILE TOWARDS ME, rothenbj?

 

[DC2]

As you can imagine, any substances that could possibly "regulate mood and behavior" might be of some concern to a potential employer, IMO.

If that were true then they should be extending the same concern for sugar, caffeine, and energy drinks.
And who knows, maybe some day soon they will, but I doubt it.