Are those who claim that vaping is safer than smoking liars?

[Joe P.]

@JoeP The acetone found in e-liquids is in traces. Very small traces and no more than a twentieth of the amount in cigarettes. There's maybe a microgram in a tankful. No way is that what is breaking tanks.

Borrow some nail polish remover, also not 100% acetone, try it out in a tank known to crack. It is actually quite impressive how little it takes. Try it out on other plastics, T.V., monitors, remotes etc. It is much like nitro fuel (used in RC cars, planes etc).

If you do a search on the forum there is an ongoing thread with a list of juices that are known to crack...[/URL]

Yes there is had referred to this very subtly by saying "The number of times I read reasons for acetone magically appearing confuses me." but kind of worth mentioning for others, many links here like it. I am more confused by people not sitting and giving this a bit of thought.

Try using real juice(s) or REAL cinnamon to crack a tank. (check the reason dentists no longer use clove oil, oops some countries still do). Before dismissing this go into your cupboard and get a cheap plastic cup. The crappy type that will crack by itself over time. Pour orange juice or what ever natural oil you think may crack plastic in it. Or add cola's or root beer etc to see if they crack plastic. Real easy way to see similar reaction. Get a styrofoam cup see how much gasoline it will hold. Then see how many styrofoam cups the puddle holds.

Grab a bottle of (not acetone free) nail polish remover smear one drop of nail polish remover. The amount of acetone is what will determine how much or how fast the plastic will react. Best way I can say this, thank you for pointing out that chemical reactions can be controlled by reactants available. It would be far better if it burst into flames and swore while melting (just a smiley thought). Asking questions should not be bad, unless a person has no idea how to answer it. Talking about something or anything should not be painfull. And please if you do try anything from above do it in a glass container so the mess is a little controled. And just for fun there is a term for things that do not react to nitro fuel. It is called DOPE proof. The first time someone explained it to me was " to protect all the dopes"

 

[AndriaD]

CNYC - the invention came to fruition in China because a man watched his father die horribly from lung cancer, and had to do something to ensure no-one else would die in such a terrible horrible manner. The actual ideology was American I believe?

So.....nicotrol inhalers and patches (or as I like to call them, sucking a tampax) are OK?

Yes, it was originally invented in 1963 by an American -- read about it here.

It never came to public notice because in 1963, BT was Large and In Charge.

And vaping VG gives me a freaking HAIRBALL... or something that feels a lot like one, in my chest. I had entirely stopped wheezing (asthma) till I had to start vaping this VG crap, now I'm wheezing again. I can't WAIT till I get back to my regular PG blend.

Andria

 

[SleeZy]

Yes, it was originally invented in 1963 by an American -- read about it here.

It never came to public notice because in 1963, BT was Large and In Charge.

And vaping VG gives me a freaking HAIRBALL... or something that feels a lot like one, in my chest. I had entirely stopped wheezing (asthma) till I had to start vaping this VG crap, now I'm wheezing again. I can't WAIT till I get back to my regular PG blend.

Andria

For me it's the opposite. To much PG gives me a harsh throat, not much but noticeable.
50/50 blends works best for me

 

[MorpheusPA]

For me it's the opposite. To much PG gives me a harsh throat, not much but noticeable.
50/50 blends works best for me

Ditto. I'm tolerant of anything from 0 to 100% PG, but high PG makes me dried out and scratchy. High VG makes me feel a might phlegmy, but nothing serious. I find 50/50 to be the best balance in my case.

 

[Akula]

Just know from personal experience I used to have trouble climbing 2 flights of stairs. Not any more.

I hope that I find this to be true. Recent trouble climbing stairs revealed I have mild emphysema and thus the switch to e-cigs.

 

[AndriaD]

Ditto. I'm tolerant of anything from 0 to 100% PG, but high PG makes me dried out and scratchy. High VG makes me feel a might phlegmy, but nothing serious. I find 50/50 to be the best balance in my case.

Man, I *wish* I was phlegmy... I could cough that up, as I did with the cigarettes!! This is a tight, dry, awful feeling, that I can't get rid of. I'm taking guaifenesin to try and make it more liquid in there, but it's not helping much. Drinking lots of water too. Vg is just too heavy for asthmatic lungs. Pg is an ooooooooold friend, from my inhaler.

Andria

 

[zapped]

Borrow some nail polish remover, also not 100% acetone, try it out in a tank known to crack. It is actually quite impressive how little it takes. Try it out on other plastics, T.V., monitors, remotes etc. It is much like nitro fuel (used in RC cars, planes etc).



Yes there is had referred to this very subtly by saying "The number of times I read reasons for acetone magically appearing confuses me." but kind of worth mentioning for others, many links here like it. I am more confused by people not sitting and giving this a bit of thought.

Try using real juice(s) or REAL cinnamon to crack a tank. (check the reason dentists no longer use clove oil, oops some countries still do). Before dismissing this go into your cupboard and get a cheap plastic cup. The crappy type that will crack by itself over time. Pour orange juice or what ever natural oil you think may crack plastic in it. Or add cola's or root beer etc to see if they crack plastic. Real easy way to see similar reaction. Get a styrofoam cup see how much gasoline it will hold. Then see how many styrofoam cups the puddle holds.

Grab a bottle of (not acetone free) nail polish remover smear one drop of nail polish remover. The amount of acetone is what will determine how much or how fast the plastic will react. Best way I can say this, thank you for pointing out that chemical reactions can be controlled by reactants available. It would be far better if it burst into flames and swore while melting (just a smiley thought). Asking questions should not be bad, unless a person has no idea how to answer it. Talking about something or anything should not be painfull. And please if you do try anything from above do it in a glass container so the mess is a little controled. And just for fun there is a term for things that do not react to nitro fuel. It is called DOPE proof. The first time someone explained it to me was " to protect all the dopes"

"real cinnamon" and "real citrus" arent going to be found in most peoples cabinets.Its the oils or concentrates of these that are causing this.You cant duplicate the effects because you arent using the exact same substances used in our juices, youre using your closest estimations.

Go buy a bottle of cinnamon oil and put just a single drop on your tongue, thats some seriously strong stuff. So is citrus oil or extract.

 

[Racehorse]

- Buying from vendors who never publish test analyses of their liquids

List of vendors who publish test analysis on liquids?

Or would that be AEMSA?

 

[AndriaD]

"real cinnamon" and "real citrus" arent going to be found in most peoples cabinets.Its the oils or concentrates of these that are causing this.You cant duplicate the effects because you arent using the exact same substances used in our juices, youre using your closest estimations.

Go buy a bottle of cinnamon oil and put just a single drop on your tongue, thats some seriously strong stuff. So is citrus oil or extract.

Actually the problem substance is a chemical called 'cinnemaldehyde' which is used in "cinnamon redhots"; real cinnamon, a/k/a baker's cinnamon, will not cause the problem, which is why you can use "cinnamon bun" flavors in plastic tanks, but not "redhot" flavors. With citrus the problem is self-evident; acids are destructive.

Andria

 

[Racehorse]

Did you not imply, the other day, that a forum member with an ECF join date of September 2013 and a post count of approx 1000 has no idea about things? That such a member should stand in awe of those with a longer forum membership and a higher post count?

Nope, because you are taking what I said out of the context of where it was posted. I was doing some battery (hardware) testing. I have been testing and using batteries for 2 years, so I know how to test them, and I thanked the people for their suggestions, merely mentioned that I already was familiar with the workarounds suggested.

This is VERY DIFFERENT than Zapped telling a new poster that they don't have a "right to an opinion' based on their post count.

And, this does come down to opinion, unlike something quantifiable like hardware testeing. Because people who have been here longer do not have more information about the safety of certain ingredients in eliquid because that information doesn't exist yet. As far as i know Dr. F. is testing liquids right now so if everybody already knew they were all safe, he wouldn't be testing them, would he. I believe he mentioned "problematic" components so obviously he believes there may be some problems.


I will happily provide a link to the topic in which I expressed that "experience" is valid in terms of knowing how a battery works, and how to test one.

Not so with ecig flavorings. quoting people out of context is really not honest debate, but you know that already.

 

[Stosh]

LOL -- it depends on the type of plastic being used. Ever bought the little squeeze bottles of lemon or lime juice, shaped like a lemon or lime? Ever bought a plastic (horrors!! ) bottle of orange juice. Those acids must play heck on the bottles.....

I have tanks that seen a ton of lemon, lime, grapefruit, orange creamsicle, cinnamon red-hot and other "crackers" with no ill effects. YMMV

 

[Lorelei]

Re: OP's initial post.

One thing I notice is that all the websites I have been to have been emphatic about noting that vaping is not intended for non-smokers, people under the age of 18, or as a smoking cessation device (that's just a nice bonus if it happens). Given that, the comparison is not supposed to be between people who inhale nothing (non-smokers / non-vapers) and smokers and vapers.

It's pretty clear, though I'm open to being contradicted later, that smoking combustible materials is far more detrimental to health than vaping food-grade ingredients. (When I was a kid, a vaporizer was a big table-top DeVilbiss-branded machine your parents put Vick's menthol/eucalyptus stuff into so its vapor would clear your lungs when you were congested. On that level, vaping stuff you are supposed to inhale is hardly a new idea.)

I would discourage non-smokers from picking up the habit, as enjoyable as it is--if you live near a hookah bar, at least try that if you're a non-smoker before spending a lot of money on a smoking-like habit; in my experience, most non-smokers don't enjoy smoking, no matter how--but I see nothing malign about recommending a smoker consider trying vaping as a supplement or alternative to combustible analog-style cigarettes or cigars or pipes.

I see your concerns are thoughtful, but I think you're making an error by comparing smoking--a known bad, unhealthy habit--to vaping--a pastime that has had time to be examined and which has been found less harmful than smoking, both anecdotally and otherwise. I think that worrying about non-smokers flocking to vaping is also less than valid. People have other interests and hobbies to spend time and money on if they aren't already accustomed to the ritual of smoking; they aren't likely to go from zero cigarettes smoked per day to hardcore vaping enthusiasts. It's simply not likely to appeal to non-smokers, IMVHO.

 

[Completely Average]

Try using real juice(s) or REAL cinnamon to crack a tank.

Real juices, or concentrated extracts? An orange isn't going to hurt your mouth, but I dare you to try holding a half cup of pure citric acid in your mouth.

Before dismissing this go into your cupboard and get a cheap plastic cup.

Excuse me, but do you have polycarbonate cups?

Nylon and vinyl are also plastics. You aren't suggesting they are the same material though, are you?


Now, why don't you try this one....

Go get an iClear 30 and an iClear 30S clearomizer. Both use polycarbonate tanks, but the 30S uses a slightly different type of polycarbonate. Pour in a known tank cracking juice into both and try to explain why the 30S tank does not crack while the normal 30 does. Then try your acetone test on the 30S tank, and try to explain why the tank cracks with the acetone, but doesn't crack with the ecig liquid.

 

[Lorelei]

ANTZ types rile me up no end, not because they're against tobacco or nicotine, that's fine. It's their attitude, they float up there on their little cloud of absolute BS and spew whatever poison they could find.

As you note, this kind of behavior and attitude is not limited to antis complaining about tobacco or nicotine, it is a behavior and attitude that shows up in many areas of life. The common denominator is that someone is against whatever it is you are for, and often their reasons for being against it are more bogus or ill-informed than not, because, obviously, it's not something they do or have an interest in themselves.

Personally, I find that taking advice or criticism from people who have knee-jerk naysay reactions to things they don't fully understand is not worth the effort. I might, if they were peer-reviewed experts in a particular subject and had done a lot of solid research on the subject, but Random Troll On Internet--even a Polite Random Troll On Internet With Well-framed Questions--does not rank anywhere near that high on my respect scale. I'll be courteous, 'cause that's just how I roll, but I will also consider the source.

 

[AndriaD]

Re: OP's initial post.

One thing I notice is that all the websites I have been to have been emphatic about noting that vaping is not intended for non-smokers, people under the age of 18, or as a smoking cessation device (that's just a nice bonus if it happens). Given that, the comparison is not supposed to be between people who inhale nothing (non-smokers / non-vapers) and smokers and vapers.

It's pretty clear, though I'm open to being contradicted later, that smoking combustible materials is far more detrimental to health than vaping food-grade ingredients. (When I was a kid, a vaporizer was a big table-top DeVilbiss-branded machine your parents put Vick's menthol/eucalyptus stuff into so its vapor would clear your lungs when you were congested. On that level, vaping stuff you are supposed to inhale is hardly a new idea.)

I would discourage non-smokers from picking up the habit, as enjoyable as it is--if you live near a hookah bar, at least try that if you're a non-smoker before spending a lot of money on a smoking-like habit; in my experience, most non-smokers don't enjoy smoking, no matter how--but I see nothing malign about recommending a smoker consider trying vaping as a supplement or alternative to combustible analog-style cigarettes or cigars or pipes.

I see your concerns are thoughtful, but I think you're making an error by comparing smoking--a known bad, unhealthy habit--to vaping--a pastime that has had time to be examined and which has been found less harmful than smoking, both anecdotally and otherwise. I think that worrying about non-smokers flocking to vaping is also less than valid. People have other interests and hobbies to spend time and money on if they aren't already accustomed to the ritual of smoking; they aren't likely to go from zero cigarettes smoked per day to hardcore vaping enthusiasts. It's simply not likely to appeal to non-smokers, IMVHO.

Except for those non-smokers who are previous smokers, and are tempted to return to smoking. My son is in that position. Naturally I'd FAR prefer him to take up vaping than take up Camel filters again, but he's currently out of state, so there's not a lot I can do for him right now. But when he gets home --!! My eRoll will become his, and he's in favor of that option, because it's not so much that he WANTS to smoke, it's that he wants to STOP SUFFERING. And I can relate to that; I once quit cold turkey for 3 months, but went back to it not because I really wanted to smoke; I just wanted to stop suffering. But otherwise, you're exactly right; if someone was not inclined to take up smoking, there is little motivation for them to take up vaping. Or, if they've been quit for so long that they have no sense of deprivation; my mom has been quit for over 10 yrs, and think's it just great for me, and even for her grandson rather than smoking, but has no interest whatever, for herself.

Andria

 

[immusicman]

My opinion is nothing is perfectly safe other than perfectly clean air. Now if you can tell me where in the US can we find that? As far as Vaping is concerned, I did a fair amount of research before trying it. I would much rather vape a product with some flavoring, nicotine and whichever propellant VG or PG you would choose than to smoke 3000 to 4000 chemicals which are proven to be carcinogenic. I am a nurse and I can promise you I don't do a shift in the ER without taking care of someone with COPD or some other breathing issue, and MANY times the patient will admit smoking has been a part of their life for years. Anyone can get COPD or any other pulmonary disease without smoking, this is true, but I say the proof is in the pudding. Less than 5 chemicals vs thousands which is equal to Vaping vs Cigarettes. 20 years ago I loved smoking better than anything. I began to suffer all kinds of bad headaches and felt so bad I put the cigarettes down. After a few weeks my headaches were gone only to return within 3 days of starting smoking again some 5 years later. I started Vaping and put down the cigarettes for good. I am thankful there is an alternative to cigarettes, even if it may have some risk. But, I would ask how can anyone question the FACT that vaping has to be safer than cigarettes? This is Apples to Oranges comparison. There is no fire or burning something and smoking the waste in Vaping as there is with cigarettes. Just my two cents.

 

[Talyon]

Man I'm not sure I can believe any of the posts in this thread as we're possibly all liars, so........

Ok who's got the Waffles?

 

[Hulamoon]

Nope just bacon and tacos today. Sorry.

Man I'm not sure I can believe any of the posts in this thread as we're possibly all liars, so........

Ok who's got the Waffles?

 

[Rickajho]

Not bacon, tacos, or waffles. Y'all need to read this: Achieving appropriate regulations for electronic cigarettes

It's already been posted in Legislation... but it needs traffic so I'm posting the URL here as well. This is a very important read for anyone having to deal with harm reduction naysayers, bad legislation or local ordinances being proposed, regulation discussions etc. It's long, so grab a pot of coffee, park it, and read the whole thing. No bacon allowed. It is highly apropos to refute the weak points the OP was trying to make.

 

[Hulamoon]

Very true wallace - but we have asked OP to express his thoughts throughout, but it looks like he bolted after getting this on New Members Forum. I believe it HAS been refuted and discussed at length. At a certain point we have to say that's it and supply a more reasonable thread for our new folk and "maybe vapers" that does address all the issues without our being labelled "liars" being slapped onto the beginning of it.