Are we going to win this war?

[DC2]

Well, I guess first I should ask if you were even aware that we are involved in a war?

I guess if you don't stumble into the Electronic Cigarette News subforums it is possible that you may not be aware...
Electronic Cigarette News

But assuming you ARE aware of who wants to destroy electronic cigarettes...
And why they want to destroy electronic cigarettes...
And the various ways they MAY be able to accomplish their goals...
And how much money they have, that we don't have, to fund this war...
And how the public has been brainwashed for decades to mostly believe what THEY say...
And how the public has been brainwashed for decades to mostly look at us as losers and addicts...

Do you think there is any chance we might actually win in the end?
And why do you think that?

 

[AgentAnia]

Depends on what you classify as a "win." I think, unfortunately, that we're going to lose some of the current battles w/ state and local laws, BUT NOT ALL! This will depend, largely, on whether we have local vaping activists who will speak out for us. As for the FDA, right now it's anybody's guess; we can't know what we need to do until the deems are made public.

But whatever happens with the above, yes, I think vapers will win in the end, because, as is often said here, the genie's out of the bottle. The toothpaste is out of the tube. It may be we'll win through the black market route, at least until public perception comes around to recognize the benefits (and lack of harm) associated with ecigs and smokeless tobacco. We may not have the massive funding the ANTZ do right now, but we are legion, and will become even more legion in the months and years to come. We have some *very* credible and vocal scientific honchos on our side. We have CASAA to help channel our efforts.

TLDR: We may lose some battles along the way, but yes, I think we'll win the war.

 

[Steamix]

Well, we run a lower risk fighting it.

Back in history folks often paid dearly for opinions and insights that weren't inline with the views of those in power and office.

In fact at some point in the past, postulating that the earth is a sphere orbiting the sun did get you flamed - literally.

Looking at the ANTZ and their likeminded ilk of today, I daresay that the percentage of ignorants/sycophants/opportunists/shysters/carpetbaggers has remained fairly constant throughout the ages...

The genie is out of the bottle alright. BT knows is. BP knows it. Politics knows it too.

The war is not about the genie ( e-cigs, PVs ), it's about the bottle and who gets to command the genie for fame and fortune...

 

[Sucker_dad]

Yes, I think we will win. I think it will be bitterly fought towards the end but the Big Boys screwed up and did nothing for too long. They allowed vaping to get a foothold. Now that it has one, and enough public recognition, the war is all but won. There are going to be a lot of people who think I am nuts but you just watch. The amount of Doctors and Scientists coming out in support of the product is increasing. Believe me scientific types don't like to buck the system. If they had stomped on the first vaporizers when they arrived then they would have a chance to win. The Pharma companies should have spent millions fighting vaporizers but their own arrogance has cost them this battle.

 

[sky4it]

War? hey i got a motorcycle helmet, Im ready.

 

[Harlen]

Ok
There's a lot of money at stake here all the infrastructure and taxes set up on tobacco not to bring up big tobacco.
How can the government let that go ??
Now you wish to stop smoking what is going to happen to all the tax money ?????
All I can sey is f,,,, um all

 

[suspectK]

I have already won.

 

[rico942]

It may be we'll win through the black market route ...

My money is on this scenario. Governments, local and federal, will continue to villify PVs and their users because it creates some of the drama they need to mask other activities, business as usual ...

Someone will always step up to supply the demand for vaping gear and juice, and the underground products will be tax free by definition ...

Its a deep-seated American tradition to practice "tax avoidance" ...

 

[klynnn]

Either way I will be vacationing and spending my money in the states that aren't trying to determine what is best for me or run my life.

 

[Vermonster13]

Legalize/decriminalize {OTHER STUFF}, but outlaw vaping. Our government has so many issues the only thing you can count on is they'll do whatever puts the most cash in their pockets and screw it up for everyone else.



If it's been legalized how can it still be illicit?

 

[BillyWJ]

Well, I guess first I should ask if you were even aware that we are involved in a war?

I guess if you don't stumble into the Electronic Cigarette News subforums it is possible that you may not be aware...
Electronic Cigarette News

But assuming you ARE aware of who wants to destroy electronic cigarettes...
And why they want to destroy electronic cigarettes...
And the various ways they MAY be able to accomplish their goals...
And how much money they have, that we don't have, to fund this war...
And how the public has been brainwashed for decades to mostly believe what THEY say...
And how the public has been brainwashed for decades to mostly look at us as losers and addicts...

Do you think there is any chance we might actually win in the end?
And why do you think that?

I'll win, because I'm making choices. I'll vape while it's legal, available and not taxed out of existence.

If any of that changes, it's quit cold turkey time - and it'll probably be easier than straight from cigs.

I'm healthier, they don't get to soak me for taxes. Who's the winner there?

 

[Caffeine7]

We will win. I live in a state where medicinal mj is legal. I honestly never thought bp would let that happen. There's no profit in something that people can grow on their own. Sure enough it passed in many states. Bp has less power than it thinks it does and they have a backlash coming if no other reason than the prices they charge for some of their products. $250+ asthma inhalers that cost pennies to make. They fought the generic drug pricing and lost. Big tobacco also. WE have the power to vote their politicians out so I'm optimistic

 

[beckdg]

BP and BT sit on the control board deciding vaping fate in the FDA.

If we are to win it will be a long, passionate battle filled with a lot of disappointment IMHO.

 

[brevity]

Whether above board or below it, welcome to the thunderdome.

 

[pamdis]

I'll win, because I'm making choices. I'll vape while it's legal, available and not taxed out of existence.

If any of that changes, it's quit cold turkey time - and it'll probably be easier than straight from cigs.

I'm healthier, they don't get to soak me for taxes. Who's the winner there?

Sort of a win. Yes, you are healthier, but you have capitulated to the ANTZ.

I will only consider it a win if:
I can continue to vape freely for the rest of my life and not be punished for it with exorbitant taxes.

Do I think we will win this? I am not sure we will, but I think we can, if we do not grow weary. It will be a long battle. I take a lot of heart from the fact that there even is a battle. Think what would have happened years ago before the internet. It would have been over before we even knew what hit us, or before most of us even heard of e-cigs.

 

[Ryedan]

Depends on what you classify as a "win." I think, unfortunately, that we're going to lose some of the current battles w/ state and local laws, BUT NOT ALL! This will depend, largely, on whether we have local vaping activists who will speak out for us. As for the FDA, right now it's anybody's guess; we can't know what we need to do until the deems are made public.

But whatever happens with the above, yes, I think vapers will win in the end, because, as is often said here, the genie's out of the bottle. The toothpaste is out of the tube. It may be we'll win through the black market route, at least until public perception comes around to recognize the benefits (and lack of harm) associated with ecigs and smokeless tobacco. We may not have the massive funding the ANTZ do right now, but we are legion, and will become even more legion in the months and years to come. We have some *very* credible and vocal scientific honchos on our side. We have CASAA to help channel our efforts.

TLDR: We may lose some battles along the way, but yes, I think we'll win the war.

Well said AgentAnia and I agree. I think there are a lot of new vapers on ECF who probably don't know the war is on but they will learn. The more of us there are the better our chances of success are. DC2, starting threads like this to get this information out is important. Kudos!

One thing more people could do right now and every day is follow these posts and get the message out this way. Takes all of about 3 minutes to do.

 

[Berylanna]

Do you think there is any chance we might actually win in the end?

My thoughts on that change every 2 hours.

And why do you think that?

I read the ECF News forums and some CASAA stuff.

My opinion is we need more everyday people helping. I'm an engineer and a scientist's daughter and I just can NOT understand the way these legislators think. And, no, I don't think every single one is evil. But they sure aren't scientists, in fact I have trouble picturing them taking more than 1 3-unit math course since they graduated high school.

But IMO we need to get the word out to people that think in pictures and metaphors. The ANTZ know this and are good at it. I've thought of a few but to spread them I'd need 1-2 artists to donate time for T-shirts to raise money for CASAA, and a photographer with access to a 75-year-old who vapes and would be willing to pose with a walker.

Also someone who knows how to make those infograph things that all the kids look at (I define "kids" as under 40. Next year it will be 41.)

IMO most of the folks in CASAA or other big-time THR advocates are scientifically-minded and suffer from the same enraged puzzlement I do, which means they, like me, don't "get" illogical folks.

Those who can, do. Those who cannot, teach. (*) Those who cannot teach, manage.(**) Those who cannot manage, legislate.

Too many vapers and casaa members "can do" so we're out of touch with politicians.

(Remember the "those who can" saying above is very old and not original with me.)

* Yes, teaching is "doing" but depends on the subject.
** Yes, managing is "doing" but depends on the company.
Sorry, not sure what to say about legislation.

 

[pamdis]

But IMO we need to get the word out to people that think in pictures and metaphors. The ANTZ know this and are good at it.

Getting the word out to non-vapers is imperative. Just as important as fighting the legislators and regulators. In the end I think it is above all a public relations battle. I have noticed a shift in comments in news articles from non-vapers parroting the ANTZ lines to showing support because the ANTZ arguments no longer hold water for them. This must be because of all the counter-points they have heard from our side. I think it's also time to go on the offensive with our own PR campaign instead of playing defense all the time. I'm no expert at it, and have not the faintest idea how to do it, but I will support others' efforts in any way I can.

 

[Robino1]

I have to believe we will. I can't imagine not being able to have this device available. We need to be vocal and present when legislation is being presented in our local areas. When we are present it does make a difference. In almost every place where vapers have shown up to at least tell their own personal story, legislation has gotten postponed or even voted down.

The ANTZ weren't expecting a fight and we showed that we are not willing to go down without one. It seems that they are in panic mode because the calls to action are coming faster and more of them. We need to keep them scared. They make mistakes when they are. They say stupid things when called out and show exactly how idiotic their reasoning really is.

We cannot step back and rest.

 

[Penn]

...My opinion is we need more everyday people helping. I'm an engineer and a scientist's daughter and I just can NOT understand the way these legislators think. And, no, I don't think every single one is evil. But they sure aren't scientists, in fact I have trouble picturing them taking more than 1 3-unit math course since they graduated high school....

This is the biggest problem we face. Science and logic are in favor of ecigs, but science and logic have little to do with how governmental bureaucratic agencies work.

An example (and please do not use this as an excuse to derail) is in the debate about man-caused climate change. There is one senator who was on a committee listening to testimony from some environmentalist in favor of regulation. The senator asked some very pointed science based questions and the one testifying talked around the questions without answering. Finally the senator asked the guy if he had ANY scientific background. Again, no real answer. This time the senator/scientist didn't allow him to talk around it and pushed him into a corner. The person testifying had absolutely NO background in science and was trying to present a position that required scientific understanding. Later, that senator found out no one else on the committee felt it was relevant that the organization represented by the man testifying had any no scientific background.

My point - Decisions will be made in government without scientific merit because not enough people care about scientific merit, in congress or average daily life.

My question - How do we get those types to hear the science and logic?