Are we going to win this war?

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Robino1

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Andria you made great points. To lighten the tension I see building (not in YOU) - I'm using YOU 'cuz I know a bit about you.;)

You drivin' to the college tonight?:) Tomorrow maybe?

Senile But Good Intentioned Don

You're thinking about DanaA(?). You have your people mixed up ;)

Easy to do :)
 

AndriaD

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You should use that for your signature Andria, I love it!

Well, as I said, I have no idea how to make a signature. I hunted around, found it in "My Settings," and entered it, but it doesn't seem to show up, so I guess I'm not yet at a level where a signature is allowed. *shrug* No biggie; I had figured I would wait till I actually lay the cigarettes down, since I really admire all these different ones that talk about "analogs" avoided, money saved, etc. I do have an avatar pic I'd love to use, but it probably wouldn't be allowed; it's an "old" lady (actually probably about my age!) flipping off the camera, with the heading "Dear smoking ban," -- I just about died laughing, the first time I saw it. :laugh:

Andria

Edit: After saving, I see that the sig did show up, so... cool! :D
 
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Myrany

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Will we win the war?

Define winning it.

If winning it means we continue on as we are now? No we will not win it. Too many attacks on too many fronts we cannot possibly win all of them.

Will we lose the war? No I don't think so. There is too much money on the line here. vaping will continue. What form it takes is at this point unknown.

We are not at the point yet where this is something to consider but a time may come when we as vapers have to pick our battles. We will have to choose those we can win.
 

Jman8

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If you are an English teacher, I apologize.

I will not write run-on sentences, because run-on sentences are bad; they encourage futher run-on-sentences, which would run things too far along, and that, in essence, is evil-enough to sentence someone to writing a 1000-word run-on sentence 10 times as punishment........

No, that wasn't part of my thought process at all.

Perhaps the thing that stood out the most for me was, "the validity of the science" - which is easily worthy of a thread, if not subforum. But is honestly one of 3 to 7 items about the sentence that fascinates me. Another, rather simple one, is that I'm a member of CASAA and thus am (loosely) connected to scientists who question the validity of what I've always deemed a myth but is accepted as 'scientific fact' in most corners of the planet.
 

Jman8

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If we are basing victory for the war on "where vaping stands today" then I think we have a chance to go the other way, in that it could get significantly better.

Easy to have a defeatist attitude on the politics of eCigs, but also possible to have hope and joy with where 'we' have come in just 7 years of a new industry. Technology could get better. Popularity could increase. Types of things that people vape (i.e. other than nicotine) could send vaping into another stratosphere that we barely even talk about 'today.' And I do mean fully legal things. Flavors could get better, or perhaps I mean consistently better. I sometimes get tired of vaping what Chinese engineers think Mountain Dew tastes like, and would be interested in trying the real thing, as in Mountain Dew releases their own patented eLiquid for the vapers. Think if we lived in that world? Where people who currently make products with flavor released their own vapes, sans nicotine, and for the pure pleasure of vaping quality flavors.

I look forward to the day when vaping stands on its own two legs and doesn't need umpteen million smokers comparing it to logs and yadda yadda yadda, it saved my life, I've cut my nicotine way down, and so should everyone. And oh, don't vape indoors. And keep it away from the children, and the pets. Won't anyone think about the pets?
 

AegisPrime

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Will we win the war?

Define winning it.

'Winning' to me means having more freedoms as vapers than we did as smokers since our habit causes no harm.

Winning means lower taxes on vaping since it's not as destructive as smoking and causes a much lesser health-care burden.

Winning means businesses being free to choose whether they allow vaping on their premises.

And no, we'll lose this war - since so many vapers already behave as if vaping and smoking are the same thing that we have little chance in persuading non-vapers that they're not.
 
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DC2

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If we are basing victory for the war on "where vaping stands today" then I think we have a chance to go the other way, in that it could get significantly better.

Easy to have a defeatist attitude on the politics of eCigs, but also possible to have hope and joy with where 'we' have come in just 7 years of a new industry. Technology could get better. Popularity could increase. Types of things that people vape (i.e. other than nicotine) could send vaping into another stratosphere that we barely even talk about 'today.' And I do mean fully legal things. Flavors could get better, or perhaps I mean consistently better. I sometimes get tired of vaping what Chinese engineers think Mountain Dew tastes like, and would be interested in trying the real thing, as in Mountain Dew releases their own patented eLiquid for the vapers. Think if we lived in that world? Where people who currently make products with flavor released their own vapes, sans nicotine, and for the pure pleasure of vaping quality flavors.

I look forward to the day when vaping stands on its own two legs and doesn't need umpteen million smokers comparing it to logs and yadda yadda yadda, it saved my life, I've cut my nicotine way down, and so should everyone. And oh, don't vape indoors. And keep it away from the children, and the pets. Won't anyone think about the pets?
In a perfect world, your post would be spot on...

Le Whaf will turn your favorite food into delicious, calorie-free vapor | News | Geek.com
Vapor Diet, LLC Launches Appetite Control Device, Transforms Weight Loss and Dieting Techniques
Vaporization: Flavoring Food with Pure Aromatic Vapor | Molecular Recipes
New Kitchen Gadget Turns Flavor into Vapor - ABC News

And in a perfect world, the Chargers would win the Super Bowl.
 

EddardinWinter

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Read a joke that said 1/3 of the NSA's database is cat pictures. And 1/3 of those are here at ECF.


I cannot deny it.


ProVariLionsmokeSIG_zps5796f2c9a1_zpsd429c7ff.jpg




Roaring via Tapatalk
 

Imnukingfutz

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Ok
There's a lot of money at stake here all the infrastructure and taxes set up on tobacco not to bring up big tobacco.
How can the government let that go ??
Now you wish to stop smoking what is going to happen to all the tax money ?????
All I can sey is f,,,, um all

Thats the thing...government is making too much money off of cigs, thats why they cant be allowed to lose market share...what an awesome way to guarantee your industry never goes away than to have the government profit heavily with your product?

And we all know how honest our politicians are.....sorry, I just threw up in my mouth when I typed that.
 

EddardinWinter

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No, that wasn't part of my thought process at all.

Perhaps the thing that stood out the most for me was, "the validity of the science" - which is easily worthy of a thread, if not subforum. But is honestly one of 3 to 7 items about the sentence that fascinates me. Another, rather simple one, is that I'm a member of CASAA and thus am (loosely) connected to scientists who question the validity of what I've always deemed a myth but is accepted as 'scientific fact' in most corners of the planet.

Wanna see something mythical?

Check this out...


Study: Third-Hand Smoke Exposure As Deadly As Smoking « CBS Atlanta

and the link to this study, directly.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0086391


I swear, I think they make this stuff up just to gauge how stupid the public is.
 
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Revelene

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Wanna see something mythical?

Check this out...


Study: Third-Hand Smoke Exposure As Deadly As Smoking « CBS Atlanta

and the link to this study, directly.

PLOS ONE: Cigarette Smoke Toxins Deposited on Surfaces: Implications for Human Health


I swear, I think they make this stuff up just to gauge how stupid the public is.

"...these mice displayed hyperactivity" umm... er... what?... mice are always hyperactive... for that study to be even remotely true they must have used mice sized cigarettes... oh wait, they don't make them that small (yet)... If they did this test with humans and a cigarette for a 40 story giant... then yeah I think we would be in some trouble (though, I would be afraid of the giant first...).

That was a comical read.
 

AndriaD

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Wanna see something mythical?

Check this out...


Study: Third-Hand Smoke Exposure As Deadly As Smoking « CBS Atlanta

and the link to this study, directly.

PLOS ONE: Cigarette Smoke Toxins Deposited on Surfaces: Implications for Human Health


I swear, I think they make this stuff up just to gauge how stupid the public is.

This just makes me embarrassed for my fellow Atlantans. Who knew they were so stupid? Wait... I guess I did, I've been b*tching about 'em for years.

I can't WAIT to see what other myths they start expounding about eCigs -- I mean, if you believe that eCigs are as dangerous as the real ones, you'd pretty much believe ANYTHING. Like a carcinogenic table-top. LMAO!

Andria
 

Jman8

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A) If THS is, even remotely an issue (like even slightly), I say prepare for THV to be a similar issue.

B) From the Abstract of the study, it says (and I laugh), "Secondhand smoke (SHS) is intrinsically more toxic than directly inhaled smoke." To stop me from laughing, or poking fun at this, I'm open to anyone supporting this claim that truly seems like news to me.
  • Added: From all the links that allegedly back up this claim, I honestly came up with zero support. Moreover, in the abstract, this point is made (and not backed up, from what I can find): "the accumulation of SHS on environmental surfaces that ages with time, becoming progressively more toxic."
C) Also from the abstract (unless otherwise linked):
  • Funding: This work was funded by Tobacco Research Disease Related Program (TRDRP) grant
  • History of TRDRP
    • In 1988, California voters approved Proposition 99, “The Tobacco Tax and Health Protection Act of 1988,” which instituted a 25¢ per pack cigarette surtax.
    • 5¢ of each dollar collected supports critical tobacco-related research.
    • The Tobacco-Related Disease Research Program (TRDRP) funds research that enhances understanding of tobacco use, prevention and cessation, the social, economic and policy-related aspects of tobacco use, and tobacco-related diseases in the State of California.
    • TRDRP is administered by the University of California and is one of three state agencies that work together towards the vision of a tobacco-free California.
  • Competing interests: The authors have declared that no competing interests exist.
D) I'm 99% certain that if BT used funds derived from tobacco sales to promote research for a 'tobacco-rich California' and reached 'scientific' conclusions that supported its general view (use tobacco products responsibly for enjoyment), that it would be shot down in nanoseconds due to 'competing interest.' But here we have funding for a study, based entirely on sales of tobacco products, to support a position that tobacco-free groups would just luvvvvvvvvvv to become part of the American Lexicon.

E) I reiterate what I said in point (A) as I think it deserves emphasis

F) From 4th footnote (link of View Article) on the abstract: "Catherine Armstrong, a spokeswoman for British American Tobacco, says, “[This work] did not study any health outcomes. As the authors themselves note, more research is needed before conclusions on possible health hazards can be drawn.” That research is about to start. The California Tobacco-Related Disease Research Program, which is funded by the California tobacco tax, recently made US$3.75 million of funding available for studying THS and cigarette .... waste." And later from this same supplemental article that I'm selectively quote mining from, "Regardless of whether THS is conclusively shown to cause illnesses, it is already changing attitudes, behaviors, norms, expectations, purchasing behavior, and the economic value of personal property and real estate, Matt says. In combination, these are powerful factors that have the potential to reduce tobacco use and lower the health risks associated with smoking itself as well as SHS and THS exposure."

G) As I just now added bullet point item to (B), I am going to say what I've said before, which is it is entirely amazing, nay a miracle, that humanity on the North American continent was able to survive this period (circa 1920's to 1980's) where 40% of the population literally smoked everywhere (indoors and outdoors). Perhaps now, even more amazing (if that's possible) that any of us are living past the age of 11, given just how utterly toxic, or progressively toxic, third-hand smoke particles are. If people smoked literally everywhere, and humans are found in those places years later, exposed to infinitely more toxic particles, then it is as amazing to me as dropping a hydrogen bomb on a heavily populated city and most people surviving. Never mind the historical fact that the population actually increased during the years that people smoked everywhere.

I like discussing the myths of our opposition. Makes for fascinating discussion to realize the lengths for which their propaganda is designed to go and to influence the children rest of society. Won't anyone think of the children rest of society?
 

AgentAnia

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....I sometimes get tired of vaping what Chinese engineers think Mountain Dew tastes like, and would be interested in trying the real thing, as in Mountain Dew releases their own patented eLiquid for the vapers. Think if we lived in that world? Where people who currently make products with flavor released their own vapes, sans nicotine, and for the pure pleasure of vaping quality flavors.....

Some manufacturers will attach little "trial size" samples of new products to existing products (Buying our toothpaste? Try our new mouthwash, sample attached as bonus!)?

Reading your post, I had a picture of a can of Mountain Dew on the supermarket shelf, with a little bottle of "Our NEW Mountain Dew E-Liquid!" attached as a bonus.

That's my fantasy-world image for today. And since in my fantasy world, vapers outnumber non-vapers, those suckers would FLY off the shelf. Delightful! :)
 
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AgentAnia

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Jman, correct me if I'm wrong, but as I understand it, TRDRP is Stanton Glantz's baby. And he and his ilk are attemtping to promulgate a mythos whereby *anything* connected to tobacco is harmful and evil. If the concept of THS gains traction, expect to see FHS (4th hand smoke) make an appearance...

(In one alternate universe, there's no such thing as tobacco, no one smokes, and Stanton Glantz is a snake-oil salesman.)
 

ScottP

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expect to see FHS (4th hand smoke) make an appearance...

Who knew cigarette smoke was like a zombie plague? Apparently anyone who comes in contact with it can apparently spread it to others, who in turn can spread it to others. After so many years of cigarettes being being smoked in the world it's a miracle that all of mankind is not a completely cancer ridden zombie like species.In other words 2nd and 3rd hand smoke is really Nth hand smoke.
 

AndriaD

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Some manufacturers will attach little "trial size" samples of new products to existing products (Buying our toothpaste? Try our new mouthwash, sample attached as bonus!)?

Reading your post, I had a picture of a can of Mountain Dew on the supermarket shelf, with a little bottle of "Our NEW Mountain Dew E-Liquid!" attached as a bonus.

That's my fantasy-world image for today. And since in my fantasy world, vapers outnumber non-vapers, those suckers would FLY off the shelf. Delightful! :)

I was just thinking that they really need to make "The Emperor's New Clothes" mandatory reading in every grade from pre-K -12.

But what good would it really do? These people are convinced that the emperor is sporting purple satin, and as is patently obvious to any parent with kids in school, or kids who WERE in school, they simply do not teach "Critical Thinking" in school anymore -- they teach test answers, vocational preparedness, and whether or not praying in school does any good, nevermind whether it violates the Constitution.

There is simply no such thing as a "Liberal Arts Education" any longer. How are people who were taught only how to take standardized tests so they can get a decent job going to be able to think for themselves, about what's true and what's not?

Ask someone a question, and say "Now, think about it..." and they will groan and cry like you just asked them to dig a 12 ft ditch with their bare hands. People do not WANT to think, they've never been taught how, so it's a huge onerous chore for them; they'd rather receive pre-digested pap, nevermind its veracity (or lack thereof).

I expect the human race will be extinct before 2100.

*sigh*
Andria
 
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