Are we going to win this war?

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bluecat

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Winning is subjective in this. I have already won. I stopped smoking. I do not vape in places that do not allow smoking.

So I have already won. I guess if you are looking to win everything including the kitchen sink and the o rings for the faucet mount you may need to continue fighting. I didn't fight. I respected the rules that were already in place.

I personally like going to a restaurant/work/other establishment where there is no smoking and no vapor.
 

DC2

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Winning is subjective in this. I have already won. I stopped smoking. I do not vape in places that do not allow smoking.

So I have already won. I guess if you are looking to win everything including the kitchen sink and the o rings for the faucet mount you may need to continue fighting. I didn't fight. I respected the rules that were already in place.
So when they ban online sales in your state, do you have a local brick and mortar that has everything you need?
Or are you just going to stop vaping when that happens?
 

bluecat

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So when they ban online sales in your state, do you have a local brick and mortar that has everything you need?
Or are you just going to stop vaping when that happens?

Yes, Altsmoke is about an hour away. Very good B&M but I think they are overpriced. My opinion only.

Also found out I have a little e-liquid store about 1 minute from my house. I have never been, but from the only it is a little too girly(from the website) for me and liquids are a little high priced. (I diy though) I am thinking of stopping one day. I also happen to have a little Italian cigar bar that closes to the public on Saturday @ 10 or so. They then turn into a private establishment that I still am able to enjoy a cigar or two, a nice draft beer (which the owner happen to like trying different types) and some sports games.

I am not sure how they can ban the sales of the tubes or delivery devices. I can see the online ban of nicotine..... Then again...if you have a mayor that puts a ban on anything over 16 ounce cup size, thankfully the states supreme court decide, no way, anything is possible. If that is the case... it's a war that can't be won.

Just as a side to the just going to quit. I have drastically cut down on my vaping. Except I am going to be very stressed for the next 6 months, so not sure how it will play out. I have thought about switching to 0 nic which my wife would love or maybe just see if I can go without vaping. It took over a year and half for the cigarette urge to stop. I finally bought a bottle of WTA and mixed several drops with my liquid. Within a week the craving went away. It's been a month and the vaping has been almost nil.

I just do not think of it as a war. I believe companies should have the right to offer smoke/vapor in their establishments. I believe it should be okay. I believe the government has stepped way beyond its authority in many things. Sadly, the public rolled over and let the government scratch their bellies.
 

patkin

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Its not a B&M per se. Its local but sells on the net only. Desert Vapes. I spoke with them and they made the decision before they started up that they would stay net-only to provide good pricing. A couple of times a week they will meet you at a usual spot if you want hand-delivery... that and they attend meets.
As for actual B&Ms so far I'm not impressed with any I've been to locally. My biggest concern is my ADV which comes from out-of-state.... I'm not sure I will be able to purchase their juice zero nic due to the ecig vendor coding thing... might be able to talk Desert Vapes into buying them for me though.
 
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Talyon

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We Win the Battle but lose the War,

Battle = we still get to Vape legally. Some happy some not so.

War = we lose where we Vape, same as smoking. ANTZ happy.
BT, gets to sell ecigs as they do now so they still make money on lost revenue from smokers switching. BT happy.
BP, well find a way in. BP happy.
BG, well continue to demonize ecigs as cigarettes, so they can sin tax it. BG happy.
Flavors gone, nic restricted to 0.4. ANTZ happy.

I'm sure I missed a few things but this is the most likely outcome, until a court decides differently.

In time, as science proves what we know and believe and courts do listen to this, we win a bit more...... But probably only a battle.
 

bluecat

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We Win the Battle but lose the War,

Battle = we still get to Vape legally. Some happy some not so.

War = we lose where we Vape, same as smoking. ANTZ happy.
BT, gets to sell ecigs as they do now so they still make money on lost revenue from smokers switching. BT happy.
BP, well find a way in. BP happy.
BG, well continue to demonize ecigs as cigarettes, so they can sin tax it. BG happy.
Flavors gone, nic restricted to 0.4. ANTZ happy.

I'm sure I missed a few things but this is the most likely outcome, until a court decides differently.

In time, as science proves what we know and believe and courts do listen to this, we win a bit more...... But probably only a battle.

If we could just get docs on our side... Not the white coats in Obama Care ads... I can tell you my doc doesn't question me anymore. I have only seen him once so far for a sinus infection. While smoking, I would get 4 or 5 sinus infections a year. When he found out I was vaping or smoking he just said hmmmm put it on my card and that was that. Then I went in for a checkup and had a little high blood pressure but I told that is because of a wife and teenage girls. That was that and haven't been back in in a long long time.

I am really flabbergasted at the demonization of vaping. I look at it as it is discrimination. Discrimination against smokers and vapers. It sad how the powers that be get away with this crap.
 
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DC2

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Yes, Altsmoke is about an hour away. Very good B&M but I think they are overpriced. My opinion only.
That's a great shop to have nearby. They may very well get a bit more expensive if online sales are banned though.

I also happen to have a little Italian cigar bar that closes to the public on Saturday @ 10 or so. They then turn into a private establishment that I still am able to enjoy a cigar or two, a nice draft beer (which the owner happen to like trying different types) and some sports games.
Sounds really nice. I'll have a cigar every now and then.
Heck, I'd still have a cigarette every now and then, if I felt like it.
:)

I am not sure how they can ban the sales of the tubes or delivery devices. I can see the online ban of nicotine..... Then again...if you have a mayor that puts a ban on anything over 16 ounce cup size, thankfully the states supreme court decide, no way, anything is possible. If that is the case... it's a war that can't be won.
So you're saying that certain "potential" parts of this war can not be won?
That may be. But it will certainly be if we don't fight against it.

Just as a side to the just going to quit. I have drastically cut down on my vaping. Except I am going to be very stressed for the next 6 months, so not sure how it will play out. I have thought about switching to 0 nic which my wife would love or maybe just see if I can go without vaping. It took over a year and half for the cigarette urge to stop. I finally bought a bottle of WTA and mixed several drops with my liquid. Within a week the craving went away. It's been a month and the vaping has been almost nil.
I just happen to be vaping a little WTA right now, which I only do when I am in stress mode.
Work has me there right now, so here I am.

But I guess I won't be able to get that anymore if the current online sales ban proposal in California passes.

I just do not think of it as a war.
That is one of the reasons I started this thread...
To hopefully get people to realize that this is indeed a war, and it requires us to fight.

I believe companies should have the right to offer smoke/vapor in their establishments. I believe it should be okay.
That should go without saying in my opinion.
But all across the country THEY are slowly taking that option away from us, and from establishment owners.

They are fighting a war.
We have to realize this and be ready to fight back.

I believe the government has stepped way beyond its authority in many things. Sadly, the public rolled over and let the government scratch their bellies.
I certainly won't disagree with you there.
 

bluecat

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Man I need to learn how to quote. Sorry I have bee noobish at chat boards for years. Some reason I just don't care to learn how.

Maybe my big thing is I do not feel there is a war. Take Dingleberg from NYC...Heck even Coumo.. I can't beleive in over 2 hundred years of the US of A that a mayor can even think to ban anything over 16 ounce... Then for the C man to go on a conservative rant like he did basically saying if you are conservative minded we don't want you in our state. To me that is just crazy and indicative of the government reaching to far. I do not care one's party affiliations. For a person in power to say that? Just no words can be expressed.

Now take these 2 examples... Soda in 16 ounce cups and the C man... Compare these to the extent of the public they reach. Now compare the extent of the public that vaping reaches... I just cannot equate the numbers.. they still got away with it... well thankfully not with the soda ban in the end.

I just see vaping as being like smoking as far as where and when it is allowed. I know it is not smoking. I know (or at least suspect) it is harmless from second hand perspective. With that said, I do think it is still offensive to get a big cloud of vape in your face when you do not want it. I would like to think we can all have respect for each other even though real life says that isn't true. We are a rude bunch.

Agreed if online sales are banned I can see prices going up at B&Ms but depending on that time frame I can see prices dropping. I am not sure if vaping gear has hit the apex or not. I do see a ton of low prices and it is even hitting the states. Heck I just saw liquid for 12.4 per 50 mls.

Yes, mate. It is really nice. Even my wife, who hates me smoking or vaping goes and enjoys it. I even had the lady that introduced us 20 years ago start vaping 0 nic. She never smoked. She loves vaping. Every time the employees come around with the ashtrays, matches and cutters she gets all giggly. Its a fun time.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out. I do respect everyone's opinions at least if I get the same respect in return. If you wish to view it as a war, that is up to you. I however do not wish to see it that way. Have I written my house rep? Yes I have a few times about vaping. Considering the dude smokes like a chimney I would think he would side. I figure I am just a peon.


Yes, it should go without saying. Like you said across the country it does not. The war is not about vaping, drinking, smoking or whatever other vice a person has. It has to do with the government overreaching its bounds.

Just found out today. My wife is a teacher. Today was the third time she has been physically threatened by a student. In a day and age where school shootings are front page news, she gets threatened and what happens? The kid gets a slap on the wrist and a in school suspension for the first occurrence and then home suspension for the other 2. The government.. school system... thinks this is appropriate punishment. So if I sound a bit pissy.. I am but not at you.


As many times as my doc has wanted me to take the little blue pill to cure me from my smoking disease.. you would think they would be all over this.
 

Jman8

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We Win the Battle but lose the War,

Battle = we still get to Vape legally. Some happy some not so.

War = we lose where we Vape, same as smoking. ANTZ happy.
BT, gets to sell ecigs as they do now so they still make money on lost revenue from smokers switching. BT happy.
BP, well find a way in. BP happy.
BG, well continue to demonize ecigs as cigarettes, so they can sin tax it. BG happy.
Flavors gone, nic restricted to 0.4. ANTZ happy.

I'm sure I missed a few things but this is the most likely outcome, until a court decides differently.

In time, as science proves what we know and believe and courts do listen to this, we win a bit more...... But probably only a battle.

Perhaps it's just me, but if these are the two options, I'd rather lose the battle (now, and let science do its magic) and win the war.

1. Never gonna lose ability to vape everywhere. May not be able to do it openly everywhere, but as I done did it in a hospital this week, I'm thinking it will never come to not being able to vape in certain locations.

2. If BT gets to sell cigalikes (legally), the gray market (which we currently live in) will be alive and well.

3. If BP finds a way in, and I'm fairly certain they will, the war will be turned on its ear. I'm still thinking vaping nicotine isn't the only thing out there to vape, and I am in no way referencing anything not currently legal. Vaping snacks, medicines, vitamins, and other things yet to be thought up are plausibly where this is all going. Might not happen this year, or in next 2 years, but I think it is still bound to happen and that BP will surely want to be in on that game (and likely already is).

4. BG may continue to demonize, but given that BG is split into at least 2 (or 3) segments, I think it'll be this party hates eCigs and this other party loves them, mostly because the other party hates them.

5a. Flavors - still the biggest issue I see in all this. I do expect a temporary restraining order, followed by a very significant political battle, followed by realization that any attempt to control flavors was about as foolish as trying to ban alcohol in America.

5b. Amount of nicotine per vaping dose, is anyone's guess. See #4 as to how that could play out over the next year, 5 years, decade and so on and so forth.
 

jwag1973

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So when they ban online sales in your state, do you have a local brick and mortar that has everything you need?
Or are you just going to stop vaping when that happens?

I buy 100% of my liquid online! The thought of having to pay premium price's for medicore liquid...makes me sick! The B&M's in St.Louis don't impress me much. Over priced merchandise, poor selection in most, employees who seem to know very little about the product they sell. Of the few that are decent, I do not care for their liquid's period. Could I vape it? Only If I had to. I can only imagine what a Sigelei, MVP2, or something similar is gonna cost! I use cartotanks, you'd be suprised at the shops that don't sell cartomizers. I hope more people start taking this a whole lot more seriously, it's a reality that's coming faster than you think.
 

Talyon

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Perhaps it's just me, but if these are the two options, I'd rather lose the battle (now, and let science do its magic) and win the war.

1. Never gonna lose ability to vape everywhere. May not be able to do it openly everywhere, but as I done did it in a hospital this week, I'm thinking it will never come to not being able to vape in certain locations.

2. If BT gets to sell cigalikes (legally), the gray market (which we currently live in) will be alive and well.

3. If BP finds a way in, and I'm fairly certain they will, the war will be turned on its ear. I'm still thinking vaping nicotine isn't the only thing out there to vape, and I am in no way referencing anything not currently legal. Vaping snacks, medicines, vitamins, and other things yet to be thought up are plausibly where this is all going. Might not happen this year, or in next 2 years, but I think it is still bound to happen and that BP will surely want to be in on that game (and likely already is).

4. BG may continue to demonize, but given that BG is split into at least 2 (or 3) segments, I think it'll be this party hates eCigs and this other party loves them, mostly because the other party hates them.

5a. Flavors - still the biggest issue I see in all this. I do expect a temporary restraining order, followed by a very significant political battle, followed by realization that any attempt to control flavors was about as foolish as trying to ban alcohol in America.

5b. Amount of nicotine per vaping dose, is anyone's guess. See #4 as to how that could play out over the next year, 5 years, decade and so on and so forth.

Ty for reading my comment, as I can see yours is very similar to mine and I do agree with you 99%.
 

wv2win

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I think we've already won. BP, BT, and the FDA are just being poor sports about it and are causing pointless grief.

There is no concrete evidence to support your supposition. Vaping as we do today could definitely be gone in the near future if we do nothing and not become active.
 

Jman8

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There is no concrete evidence to support your supposition. Vaping as we do today could definitely be gone in the near future if we do nothing and not become active.

Chances of us doing nothing and not becoming active, I would say is, zero. As you are part of the 'we' it would mean you would have to buy into the logic of doing nothing and become inactive.

I say all this cause I can relate to idea that we've already won. Genie is out of the bottle, and the poor sports (i.e. BP) can do all the voodoo that they do, but won't amount to putting that genie back in the bottle. Try as they might, on that front they have been utterly defeated.

So, all they have left is attempts to control. But if we look at other things that are banned (illegal), they, who seek strict control, are rather poor at managing that. I could go off on rant here, that includes 'thinking about the children' but not really worth it, when realizing the fact that even under worst case scenario (actual ban), they still will be fighting a losing battle. And then come back to reality where some of us won't stop doing something and will continue to be active with regards to de facto bans, and it is they that are fighting the losing battle, not us. We are on the winning side, and if we went proactive and turned up our side a few notches, they would continue to show up as desperate and grasping for straws.
 

AgentAnia

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....Vaping as we do today could definitely be gone in the near future if we do nothing and not become active.

....I can relate to idea that we've already won. Genie is out of the bottle, and the poor sports (i.e. BP) can do all the voodoo that they do, but won't amount to putting that genie back in the bottle. Try as they might, on that front they have been utterly defeated....

I agree with both of you in a way. Yes, the genie is out of the bottle. Vaping is not going to go away, at least not for current, committed vapers.

But then again, yes, vaping as we know it could be gone in the near future. I have no doubt that if this is the case, a very efficient and comprehensive black market will develop. As Petrodus says, we will always find workarounds.

But this war is also being fought on behalf of those who could benefit from ecigs in the future and who don't even know a war is being fought, and for those would similarly benefit but who would be reluctant to go against laws and regulations (and yes, even those who could similarly benefit but who accept without question the ANTZs' junk science and fanatical fearleading.)

This is the war I, as a responsible member of the human race, will continue to fight to the bitter end -- theirs or mine...
 

AndriaD

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I pretty much agree with the consensus here, that there's no way we can really "lose" -- there is always a black market for stuff that people want, I mean just look at how the war on drugs has been going on ad infinitum, but they're still out there, and probably always will be, no matter how many acronymic organizations the stuffed shirts create. They keep raising the prices on cigarettes, I suppose to discourage its use, but hey, I keep finding a way to afford to smoke, no matter how broke I am.

I think it's kinda like when the idiots in Washington (DC -- WA state seems extremely NON-idiotic!) discovered the internet -- approximately 10 years after everyone else did. They were appalled; people were actually saying what they thought, AND GETTING AWAY WITH IT, and that's just offensive to stuffed shirt politicos. And all that sales tax money that isn't being paid, because people are buying online from different states -- how the hell do you police that? YOU CAN'T! It's true that the WWW is a wild and often dangerous place, so the real onus is on the users to learn to protect themselves, because there's only so much that can be done from the outside to make it safer.

Seems quite true of tobacco use, too -- if you smoke it, it's dangerous, and even those of us who've resisted quitting or found it so far impossible to quit have to acknowledge the danger of tobacco smoking, and now a lot of us are trying to do something about it -- it's self-preservation, and getting in the way of people trying to preserve their own lives is a sure way to get trampled! Many if not most of us are already familiar with the uselessness of patches and pills, so the FDA or BP preaching that nonsense is just a lot of "sound and fury" -- no one is really listening, because we already tried that and it didn't work.

I think it's really that government is the ultimate control freak -- it just goes nuts that people are doing something that it can't control, but ultimately, it will have to concede that no control, or at least very little control, is really possible -- this country is what, about 300 million, and growing all the time? There is no way to truly control that many people, unless you just go totally fascist and institute martial law everywhere, and given our 2nd amendment, that doesn't seem too likely to happen in the US. What they're really trying to control at this point is PERCEPTION -- to manipulate people's minds by all this important-sounding jargon into believing that e-cigs are as dangerous as the real thing, and that's where we, as vapers, really come in -- if they keep saying that e-cigs are just as dangerous as the real ones, but we just stubbornly refuse to get sick and die from vaping, well... where exactly does that leave their "party line"? ;)

Reminds me of some book I read about religious zealots, who kept saying that doing thus-and-such would kill you and send you to hell -- and the hero replies, "you keep saying that, and it keeps NOT HAPPENING..." :D

Andria
 

DC2

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What they're really trying to control at this point is PERCEPTION -- to manipulate people's minds by all this important-sounding jargon into believing that e-cigs are as dangerous as the real thing...
After thinking about these issues every day for the last four years I have come to a conclusion...

--Big Pharma is undoubtedly a potent enemy
--Big Government is undoubtedly a potent enemy
--Big Tobacco may be an enemy now, or in the near future

But the real problem is the mainstream media.

If it weren't for the mainstream media pushing all of the damned lies and sensationalist crap we would be winning the public over with ease.
And if we were winning the public over, we would undoubtedly win this war.

Instead we find ourselves surrounded by mindless people who think electronic cigarettes are bad.
How in the hell can that even happen?

I can tell you this much, it surely could not happen without the mainstream media doing what it is doing.
All the bogus studies and twisted lies would never have an effect without them.
 

wv2win

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Chances of us doing nothing and not becoming active, I would say is, zero. As you are part of the 'we' it would mean you would have to buy into the logic of doing nothing and become inactive.

I say all this cause I can relate to idea that we've already won. Genie is out of the bottle, and the poor sports (i.e. BP) can do all the voodoo that they do, but won't amount to putting that genie back in the bottle. Try as they might, on that front they have been utterly defeated.

So, all they have left is attempts to control. But if we look at other things that are banned (illegal), they, who seek strict control, are rather poor at managing that. I could go off on rant here, that includes 'thinking about the children' but not really worth it, when realizing the fact that even under worst case scenario (actual ban), they still will be fighting a losing battle. And then come back to reality where some of us won't stop doing something and will continue to be active with regards to de facto bans, and it is they that are fighting the losing battle, not us. We are on the winning side, and if we went proactive and turned up our side a few notches, they would continue to show up as desperate and grasping for straws.

First, I believe only a very, very small percentage of those who vape are active. Probably less that .001%. Out of 1M vapers that would amount to 1000. So I am probably being generous. Second, if they get the right legislation passed, the two weak area's are financial institutions and nicotine. Stopping the ability to process transactions for vaping supplies, like Paypal voluntarily did in the US, would kill it out right. I'm not saying that will happen, but under the right circumstances, especially at a state/city level, it is possible.
 
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