Ask your favorite suppliers to remove diacetyl from their e-liquids!
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Weights and measures?!
Panini, I thought the issue was the widespread and unannounced use of butterers in flavoring, their toxicity and our desire to avoid vaping them. No?
I was just watching a news item on nuclear power. It's like global warming. To some the glass is half full, to others it's half empty. It's a matter of orientation and temperament. Unfortunately the realities don't influence people too much.
I sensed the temperament of the good people in these threads, and my initial reaction was to think it was probably exaggerated . After Shanagan pointed me to more research, I changed my mind. The problem was potentially serious. But it's always a matter of amount. So I put in a bit of work to estimate how much we might vape. My conclusion was that strong flavoring of e-liquids using heavily buttered flavors was exposing people to concentrations that might be dangerous, and that light flavoring and minimizing the buttered flavors would probably bring it below the obvious danger zone. But of course people should know and they have a right to avoid butterers entirely.
So I investigated how the business works, and who has access to the detailed composition. It turned out that the information is closely held by a handful of industrial chemists and wholesalers. The flavoring companies we know had been bottling mixtures without knowing their exact composition, and nobody was supposed to inhale them. Enter the vaping phenomenon. And the unrelated gradual realization over the last decade that butterers are toxic when inhaled. So we end up in a new and complicated situation that needs work.
There are many ways to try reducing the potential harm in this situation. Vaping is, after all, a harm reduction tactic. But the loudest voices are those of the temperamentally "half-empty" contingent. When presented with a concentration issue, they say the stuff is unconditionally toxic at any level. When discussing the research, they go for the most pessimistic inferences. When faced with the realities of who has what information, rather than figuring out a solution, they rant against the people who don't have any, because, well, they should, and start talking in tongues about unsanitary kitchens, improper weights and measures, and what have you.
They are managing to polarize so effectively that a majority of vapers are dismissing the danger, and blab about their freedoms. And the complainers don't seem to care. Neither side is evidently looking for practical solutions. Somehow it reminds me of American politics. Makes me feel pretty lonely. Am I the only person here who thinks this is insane?
Panini, I thought the issue was the widespread and unannounced use of butterers in flavoring, their toxicity and our desire to avoid vaping them. No?
I was just watching a news item on nuclear power. It's like global warming. To some the glass is half full, to others it's half empty. It's a matter of orientation and temperament. Unfortunately the realities don't influence people too much.
I sensed the temperament of the good people in these threads, and my initial reaction was to think it was probably exaggerated . After Shanagan pointed me to more research, I changed my mind. The problem was potentially serious. But it's always a matter of amount. So I put in a bit of work to estimate how much we might vape. My conclusion was that strong flavoring of e-liquids using heavily buttered flavors was exposing people to concentrations that might be dangerous, and that light flavoring and minimizing the buttered flavors would probably bring it below the obvious danger zone. But of course people should know and they have a right to avoid butterers entirely.
So I investigated how the business works, and who has access to the detailed composition. It turned out that the information is closely held by a handful of industrial chemists and wholesalers. The flavoring companies we know had been bottling mixtures without knowing their exact composition, and nobody was supposed to inhale them. Enter the vaping phenomenon. And the unrelated gradual realization over the last decade that butterers are toxic when inhaled. So we end up in a new and complicated situation that needs work.
There are many ways to try reducing the potential harm in this situation. Vaping is, after all, a harm reduction tactic. But the loudest voices are those of the temperamentally "half-empty" contingent. When presented with a concentration issue, they say the stuff is unconditionally toxic at any level. When discussing the research, they go for the most pessimistic inferences. When faced with the realities of who has what information, rather than figuring out a solution, they rant against the people who don't have any, because, well, they should, and start talking in tongues about unsanitary kitchens, improper weights and measures, and what have you.
They are managing to polarize so effectively that a majority of vapers are dismissing the danger, and blab about their freedoms. And the complainers don't seem to care. Neither side is evidently looking for practical solutions. Somehow it reminds me of American politics. Makes me feel pretty lonely. Am I the only person here who thinks this is insane?
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The Weights and Measures is a relevant example of another problem in a new and relatively unregulated industry. The current tactic is surely not perfect, but what sort of practical solution would you propose in response Fernand?
Fernand, the reason I was posting that was to demonstrate how it's not about "policing" the industry, but being comfortable with them following regulations that are already in place -- regardless of how e-cigs are ultimately defined. If I can't trust that, it's pretty hard to trust that I will be given accurate information to work with in respect to diacetyl. And I'm not trying to push anyone into taking my opinion as gospel. I am simply trying to emphasize that consumers, especially new ones, can't be expected to go to the lengths you describe. That doesn't seem realistic. Regardless of what you say, I believe the vendors DO have to take some responsibility here and that seems to be where we're butting heads.
ETA: I understand what you're saying about people going the other extreme when met with force on an issue. I get that. But you ignore the fact that a "popular" vendor came right out and said, several times, that it's no big deal. Those messages are what I see being parroted around here. Is that not equally damaging?
ETA: I understand what you're saying about people going the other extreme when met with force on an issue. I get that. But you ignore the fact that a "popular" vendor came right out and said, several times, that it's no big deal. Those messages are what I see being parroted around here. Is that not equally damaging?
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No you are not the only one Fernand. It reminds you of American politics as these type of arguements are exactly why it takes so long for any practical solution to be applied. (I work in a field related to that BTW
On a positive note I do know that no progress in our society is EVER achieved without controversy. History supports me on that one.
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Under the new OSHA Hazard Communication, anyone selling importing or using in the workplace any food flavoring that contains more than 1% diacetyl, or I assume the substitutes they list, has to label per Danger. If they don't know how much is in there, and since by assumption it might contain more than 1%' they have to find out. That provides the justification for the flavor-makers to ask the flavor-labs without even mentioning vaping, which is irrelevant. Everybody now has a good reason to ask and to know. Maybe that's the leverage we were looking for?
I noticed one of the UK e-liquid suppliers has a good amount of information about quantities of diacetyl in their flavours - Diacetyl So the flavour with the most diacetyl in it in this particular case has about 96 micrograms (millionths of a gram) per ml.
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Nice find, also a nice tip-toe around the issue While it has been stated repeatedly that there is no danger from eating diacetyl, there is cause for concern in purposely inhaling it all day long. The table of concentrations is a nice tool, though. Thank you for posting it.
While it has been stated repeatedly that there is no danger from eating diacetyl, there is cause for concern in purposely inhaling it all day long. The table of concentrations is a nice tool, though. Thank you for posting it.
Good find! EnJuice is apparently using all FA flavors, as they borrow FA's exact wording. Given that, they can compute based on FA's disclosure and their own mixing ratios. It's a good illustration of what can be provided if 1) there is upstream disclosure and 2) the juice mixer is consciencious. Now remains to check if these figures are plausible. And what sorts of inhaled concentrations these might lead to. Of course some people can choose to avoid these entirely, and that's as it should be.
An excellent point and catch.
Fernand, whether this is from this discussion or the other thread going, I want to address something. I am truly sorry that you read me as confrontational, or not allowing for other opinions to enter the fray. Not so. I am, though, weary of discussing the way water is wet.
Every time we move along to a point where we see a way to move forward - someone else is attracted to the drama and one of us must start all over again in explaining what we perceive as the dangers/issues and how they can or cannot be proved by someone's calculations. It seems to be "my job" in this to take on all new comers. And I will certainly admit, I am human and refuse to express myself in a way that gentles down the conversation when I am (again) being called paranoid/extreme/fear-mongering, etc. The tactic has been the same, over and again, and I think if you look through my posts with an objective eye, you will find that for the most part, I have been exceedingly calm while firm in discussing what is known to be factual, what is known to be opinion, and what is not known at all.
And on that note, this thread and other threads like it are generally proceeding just about how they should be expected to be proceeding.
Well thanks, y'all. Love you too. So now that we "complainers" have quieted down for a while, what has happened to the issue, exactly? Lots of discussion on it, no?
/sarcasm
I keep reading through this thread, and i am very concerned about diacetyl, even more than i was when i first heard about it. For those of you who think this is no big deal and that its all about fear mongering I say shame on YOU. First of all, God forbid if you got popcorn lung, do you know the process for even getting put on the lung transplant waiting list? I do. My cousin who had cystic fibrosis went through numerous tests before she could be put on the list, then when she actually got put on the list it took her YEARS to get a double lung transplant. From what I have read here, if you get popcorn lung you arent going to have years to wait to do testing and years more to wait for a transplant. I should also add that transplants arent a lifesaver, for most people that have them it only prolongs their life by about ten more years IF they are lucky. My cousin wasnt so lucky, she did great for the first couple of months and then had one complication after another. She eventually passed away from a disease called ARDS, which is basically hardening of the lungs. I saw her suffer and spend the last two months of her life hooked up on life support at the hospital. I, for one dont want that to happen to me or anyone else. I chose to vape as a way to quit smoking so I would hopefully get my lungs back in shape again, or at least in better condition than they would be from smoking. I dont see what the big deal is for suppliers to KNOW what they are selling to us, its the responsible thing to do. I dont know of any other industry where a business would sell something but NOT know what they are selling. Any supplier who gets offended that the people who are buying juice from them wants to know what is in it has no business selling e juice. I am sick and tired of some of the flippant attitudes about this issue from several vendors. For those who dont think its a big deal, would this thread be so long if it werent? it IS a big deal. This is peoples LIVES we are talking about here.
Thank you. I held out on getting involved in this discussion as long as i could, but I think its as issue everyone should be concerned about.
Well said Darlene. Some of the responses against disclosure and diacetyl's dangers are unbelievable...and sad. I don't think a lot of these members understand the misery someone goes through when they suffer from lung damage. It's a slow and painful death.
It's also shocking that we have people on this forum who fight for the rights of suppliers to not disclose the, (dangerous), chemicals being used in their juice. I wonder if they would feel the same way if it came to the food they eat or the medicines they give to their families? Heck...let's just tell all the companies out there that disclosure isn't necessary.
It's also shocking that we have people on this forum who fight for the rights of suppliers to not disclose the, (dangerous), chemicals being used in their juice. I wonder if they would feel the same way if it came to the food they eat or the medicines they give to their families? Heck...let's just tell all the companies out there that disclosure isn't necessary.
Please show us one poster on this or any other thread on this forum that has taken the position you are so shocked about. This is the kind of faux self-righteous posturing that undermines any serious discussion of this topic.
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