Authentic makers sueing Cloners?

[Maurice Pudlo]

i agree some what with your sentiments.

it would be nice to be living in a touchy feely world where every one helped each other and,
we where in the good old days.
the truth of the matter is the rent still has to payed. one needs gas for the mini-van. kids have to
be clothed,fed and educated. hopefully one can do this and have enough left over to buy what
one wants,clone or, original.

i have no problem with what happened at ECC. the ECC has to grow up.
there are very few if any trade shows that allow knock-offs to be sold along side
of legitimate vendors.

this is not going to go away. the money it takes to start up and run a company is not
chump change. i can't blame any one who is trying to protect that kind of investment.

regards
mike

If someone with kids can't set aside a few hundred dollars its because they neglected to pick up a $1 condom. What if that minivan breaks, going to have to come up with some cash then, yes? Of course that's important.

Well to me vaping is about the most important thing to come into my life, an authentic is worth every penny, its a small price to pay in buying my life back.

Maurice

 

[Circa Survivor]

If someone with kids can't set aside a few hundred dollars its because they neglected to pick up a $1 condom. What if that minivan breaks, going to have to come up with some cash then, yes? Of course that's important.

Well to me vaping is about the most important thing to come into my life, an authentic is worth every penny, its a small price to pay in buying my life back.

Maurice

Umm.... did it ever occur to you that people choose to have children?

 

[TheProphet]

If someone with kids can't set aside a few hundred dollars its because they neglected to pick up a $1 condom.

I'm not even sure where to start on how flawed this argument is.

 

[Circa Survivor]

I'm not even sure where to start on how flawed this argument is.

Agreed. Maurice, you pretty much lost all, if any, credibility you had with that lame comment.

 

[Robino1]

Be careful in here. The debate has been nice and lively without crossing the line of the forum rules..... so far.

Let's keep it that way.

This has been a public service announcement. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[stevegmu]

If someone with kids can't set aside a few hundred dollars its because they neglected to pick up a $1 condom. What if that minivan breaks, going to have to come up with some cash then, yes? Of course that's important.

Well to me vaping is about the most important thing to come into my life, an authentic is worth every penny, its a small price to pay in buying my life back.

Maurice

The odd thing is, it seems those who love Fastech 'clones' have drawers full of them; when they could have 1 or 2 originals for what they spent...

 

[Circa Survivor]

The odd thing is, it seems those who love Fastech 'clones' have drawers full of them; when they could have 1 or 2 originals for what they spent...

Variety is the spice of life.

 

[Cadeus333]

I have never bought a clone until the other day, which is the Manhattan clone. I do not feel bad at all, it is common knowledge that Amerivape is run by loudmouth idiots. I did go out of my way to get the Manhattan with no logo. I don't mind clones but I do mind when cloners slap the company logo on a mod the that was not made by said company. It just feels wrong to me. Anyways, it was nearly impossible to find an authentic copper Manhattan because the company discontinued them for "safety" reasons. In my situation I was kind of forced to buy a clone, and I am glad that option was open to me. As far a quality compared to the authentic, it's pretty spot on. I paid 40 bucks for something that functions exactly like the $280 authentic.

 

[edyle]

............................

So assuming a Caravela was patented, mind you there are only what 1000 of them, you might need to add around $20 per country if you decide you want your Caravela patent to be recognized everywhere in the world. That's 195 countries at $20,000 per patent divided amongst the 1000 Caravela mods, so the price just jumps up to +$3,900 for patent protection per Caravela.

..........................................
Maurice

That's a very big assumption.

Patents

What can and cannot be patented?
What can be patented – utility patents are provided for a new, nonobvious and useful:

Process
Machine
Article of manufacture
Composition of matter
Improvement of any of the above
Note: In addition to utility patents, encompassing one of the categories above, patent protection is available for (1) ornamental design of an article of manufacture or (2) asexually reproduced plant varieties by design and plant patents.

What cannot be patented:

Laws of nature
Physical phenomena
Abstract ideas
Literary, dramatic, musical, and artistic works (these can be Copyright protected). Go to the Copyright Office .
Inventions which are:
Not useful (such as perpetual motion machines); or
Offensive to public morality
Invention must also be:

Novel
Nonobvious
Adequately described or enabled (for one of ordinary skill in the art to make and use the invention)
Claimed by the inventor in clear and definite terms

 

[icemanistheking]

This debate is so tiring after awhile, as from an authentic point of view, there is nothing even worth debating.

Clones suck, and if you buy them you are supporting theft of design, unoriginality, and sweatshop-style labor. I don't see where anything else really needs to be said on the issue given those three facts.

 

[TheProphet]

Clones suck

And your backing of this statement is......? Some clones perform just as well as, if not better than, the authentics. Sure, some clones are low quality but many are quite nice. Your "facts" show a blaringly obvious bias, which damages your argument quite a lot, and makes you hard to take seriously.

 

[Jman8]

My thoughts on this topic and thread:

1. I'm yet to see an argument put forth by the pro-original crowd that will reasonably prevent the pro-clone crowd from buying clones. As I think this point matters, I list it as #1 and will come back to it later.

2. If authentic makers had to argue their case with pro-clone crowd, in this thread, I think they would win in a heartbeat. IOW, let the courts settle the legal debate. I'm glad it has finally come about.

3. Regarding post #60 in this thread (by Marc411), where it conveys idea of 'unless copyrighted (or patented), it is okay to copy,' then I wonder why not just copy the logo? I would wonder from the pro-clone crowd, why some imaginary line would be drawn if the logo was copied but that logo was not copyrighted/trademarked? If I make 1:1 copy of Provari (for example), including their logos, but those items are not copyrighted/trademarked, and person selling it says this is a Provari clone, then what really would be the problem if filtering this from the pro-clone crowd perspective?

4 - Regarding post #89 of this thread (by bluecat), the dictionary definition of 'counterfeit' that you linked to, includes the definition of 'imitation.' Intention is one definition of counterfeiting, but not the only. Google 'non-deceptive counterfeiting' if you are unclear on how, precisely, cloning is actually counterfeiting.

5 - I don't see authentic makers entirely winning in courts. I think they may win on some counts and in some jurisdictions, but not all counts and not all jurisdictions. This is really US economic law clashing with other governments on issues of innovation and ownership (of design patents, copyright, trademarks, etc.). To the degree the authentic makers do lose, it will benefit consumers of the product, but will hurt foundations of US economic law. Perhaps that's a good thing depending where you reside physically and philosophically.

6 - Coming back to point #1, and politics of vaping. As long as China is able to put out clones (non-deceptive counterfeits) and no one on the planet can prevent them from doing this (including distributing those counterfeits into US markets), then I don't see how FDA can possibly win in its fight to eliminate vaping products from the US market. So, say FDA succeeds in closing US businesses due to deeming regulations. Does this mean China will just sit there and change their tune on how it manufactures and markets its product? I would say a resounding 'no' is the answer to that. This means, the black market for vaping is virtually guaranteed and those who suggest FDA will get rid of 99% or more of all products know very little of what they are talking about.

 

[Circa Survivor]

This debate is so tiring after awhile, as from an authentic point of view, there is nothing even worth debating.

Clones suck, and if you buy them you are supporting theft of design, unoriginality, and sweatshop-style labor. I don't see where anything else really needs to be said on the issue given those three facts.

Not really "facts," but ok. It's ok if you don't want to buy clones because of some morality issue, but to say they suck is completely false.

 

[Rule62]

And your backing of this statement is......? Some clones perform just as well as, if not better than, the authentics. Sure, some clones are low quality but many are quite nice. Your "facts" show a blaringly obvious bias, which damages your argument quite a lot, and makes you hard to take seriously.

I rarely participate in clone vs authentic discussions, because they're just the same stuff, over and over. But I keep hearing that 'some clones perform better than authentics'. Could someone provide some specific examples of this?

 

[Circa Survivor]

I rarely participate in clone vs authentic discussions, because they're just the same stuff, over and over. But I keep hearing that 'some clones perform better than authentics'. Could someone provide some specific examples of this?

Hmm.. I don't know about "better," but I'd wager that if you take an Infinite Magma Clone, and a authentic by Paradigm, and put the same build on it with the same juice, and on the same mod, there will be no difference. The only thing it really comes down to is build quality, which it seems like now the clones are on the same level build quality as any authentic.

 

[Rule62]

Hmm.. I don't know about "better," but I'd wager that if you take an Infinite Magma Clone, and a authentic by Paradigm, and put the same build on it with the same juice, and on the same mod, there will be no difference. The only thing it really comes down to is build quality, which it seems like now the clones are on the same level build quality as any authentic.

Disregarding what the owner does after he gets it, such as coil build, wicking, etc.; can anyone give an example of a clone which, out of the box, outperforms an authentic? I keep reading this, every time a clone vs authentic discussion comes up.

 

[skoony]

if it looks like Bob's duck call,walks like Bobs duck call,quacks like Bobs duck call and you call it a copy of Bob's duck call,
its infringing on Bob's duck call.

you could call it Fred's frog call and probably be ok.

1:1 clones piggyback on the work,time,research and development,advertising and reputation of the original maker.

they still make Delorean cars today . however they are licensed to do so.
they paid for that right.

regards
mike

 

[snork]

I'm sure BT will happily make use of Chinese manufacturing when they corner the e-cig market through the legislation and courts. They are one of the few that can afford the legal efforts to bring that about and then all these arguments will seem as pleasant memories of when we had a choice. We keep on funding those who won't ever oppose it happening.

I'm quoting this so people may read it again.

 

[HauntedMyst]

Buying clones does not affect me personally, so I don't really care. I will never feel bad for not supporting people who's products have been cloned. And none of that "if it was you," cause it isn't.

Honest and gloriously narcissistic!

While people may not like this response, at least it's honest. I suspect this is how a lot of people actually feel, they just don't have the guts to say it.

I doubt most people have thought it through that much, hence all the ignorance in the "it's just a tube and switch" or "it should cost this much" supporting comments. I appreciate that Circa is at least honest enough to admit he'll never create any thing of value or bring a product with intellectual property to market so ultimately, it doesn't effect him.

 

[Ed_C]

There's now at least one, made in the US mod that sells for $70 and a number of them the sell for ~$100, so mods don't NEED to cost $200+. That being said, if the maker can get $200+ for his product, why on earth would he not? This isn't charity. Why does everyone think there's a new mod being released every 10 minute? Maybe because there's money to be made?