Authentic makers sueing Cloners?
- Thread starter Kendogalopigus
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You've confused me now, i read the reply prior to this as you believe it would carry a cost of $1bn to outsource production to china, which is what i found hilarious.
The guys behind the mutation x rda are not billionaires probably not even millionaires for that matter yet their atty was designed in the west and produced in the east, and its a high quality well received rda just as good and even better then many RDAs designed and produced in the west. Pretty sure the makers of the unicorn mod aren't billionaires yet their device was also manufactured in China.
Most of the market for open systems described in that article will be dominated by China produced products, if the market shifted production to China mod makers would probably make more money, lower costs for their customers, have a better quality product that isn't upgraded every 5 mins, meet demand, and most importantly make high quality products easily accessible to the people who want to quit smoking who are interested and don't have a lot of money or time to join a source a list and join it and wait wait wait.
That kind of market will always be cloned/copied/whatever, and you only have to look at recent clones like the rose v2, the slug mod, and others to realise clones are getting better and in some cases actually improve upon faults with the original design, this will keep happening too.
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~70 trillion dollars is the total annual economic output of the entire world.
But no matter. How do you move a mountain? One steam-shovel bucket full at a time..
Since when are things made in China by Western companies cheaper? I used to wear Dr. Martens boots in high school and college. Loved them. One day, I bought a new pair. They were poorly made junk. I couldn't wear them for more than a few minutes they hurt so much. As I took them off I noticed they were made in China, whereas every other pair I had owned were made in the UK. They didn't cost any less than the ones I previously bought...
Dr martens production was moved to the east because they nearly went bust, the west made (now premium version) are still available but the ones you bought are the cheaper ones. China will have loads different production plants with output quality ranging from crap to premium, depending upon how much you pay for it
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I bought them from a Dr. Martens retail store; the same model I had always previously bought at the same price...
I think he was saying that the model Doc martens you used to buy, became the cheap ones (even though the price didn't change) and the good UK ones were now the "premium model", which you hade to pay more for just to get the same thing you had always gotten before.
So quality went down and the price remained the same with PRC manufacturing. Sounds about right...
I understand how people who aren't familiar with manufacturing type businesses or custom fabrication can say "It's just a metal tube, how come China can sell it so cheap. The US Manufacturers are just out to price gouge. Why would I pay twice as much for something because it's authentic, when i can buy a clone that says it's authentic for 1/10 the price?
The problem is, we are looking are lacking innovation and development and at least some of that is due to the market, the realistic market that's global. Cloning mods and developing, designing, testing, and then manufacturing mods are two completely different animals. China has really improved on the cloning side of things as well as manufacturing and technology and they're working on getting their raw materials up to par.
But the problem I see as being what will give our community the biggest hit, is the stifling of new innovative products. It costs a lot of money even if you don't figure it in dollars and count it as time someone spends on it, to release revolutionary, innovative technology. If someone was to develop a new mod or new vaping device of some sort, they could either make it on a scale of one or two, or try and produce it for the masses. If a person developing vaping technology, someone truly passionate about the hobby and community, and not charge a dime for all the time they spending creating and perfecting it. and with R&D and testing, etc, there is still the cost of manufacturing and distributing the product.
If there are no wages paid to anyone, said person who is making mods for free would still have to buy the raw materials upfront. To sell an authentic mod at a price most vapers buying mods would be happy with, we'll say maybe 5,000 units would be needed, that's really not enough to get prices where they need to be but it's all the capitol the bank will commit to with an unsold product. So Mr. Mod Maker would need to buy the raw material for those units up front, or else the discount people are expecting to get for a large production batch disappears. They would either need to hire a manufacturing company to produce them, or they could manufacture the mods themselves.
Manufacturing the mods themselves would be cheap on labor, but they are going to have to purchase or lease the equipment to machine the parts, pay overhead on the facility assuming it's someone like myself who has an office and shop sitting vacant on commercial property where manufacturing can take place, pay the sales and use taxes, purchase all the software needed, make or have someone make the appropriate tools and dies to machine the parts, cover enough insurance premiums to at least get the first batch out without being shut down, etc. Or they'll have to pay for the time and labor of whatever machine shop or manufacturing facility they hire, cover the tooling and machine setup fees, etc.
So now the mod maker has successfully made all that happen somehow and kept the banks financing the operating capitol off their backs long enough to get the first run produced and sent to the distributors with connections in the retail world. They manage to sell the mods for $50.00 each to break even for the initial investment. The first 1000 gets off to the distribution chain.
Now that there's an authentic best of the best top selling mod hitting the markets, a lot of buzz is created. While waiting on reviews to start coming back on that first 1,000 pieces, Mr. ModMaker checks out the forums, and sees the big news. "Vaper Billy Bob's Blog has just announced, Mr. ModMaker clones are being produced and sold for $20 with the discount code "ugotscrewed".
As a manufacturer considering using my skills, talents and equipment to produce vape gear and sell it at even cost because this is my passion, I see what happened to Mr. Modmaker when I attend an auction for machine shop equipment that his bank put on because he couldn't cover the huge upfront cost once Chinese clones hit the market.
Anyone with business experience will realize that dropping a couple hundred grand on manufacturing a product makes no economic sense knowing that you're releasing an innovative and original new design, long ago patented, into a market where China will have subpar quality clones made within a few weeks of your product launching. And launching with huge batches of products ready to ship doesn't do away with the problem, because many consumers will say "Wow if this is $50 I'm waiting on the clone, it will be really cheap if the authentic is so cheap."
Remember that the problem of a lack of innovation and new product designs isn't specific to any country of origin, China would clone Chinese companies in a heartbeat to make a few bucks, it's a different culture and environment with different laws, ethics, morals, social norms, etc. Just remember that when we drive a market like clones and counterfeits up by backing it with our dollars, we are pulling away from other parts of the market like product innovation.
The problem is, we are looking are lacking innovation and development and at least some of that is due to the market, the realistic market that's global. Cloning mods and developing, designing, testing, and then manufacturing mods are two completely different animals. China has really improved on the cloning side of things as well as manufacturing and technology and they're working on getting their raw materials up to par.
But the problem I see as being what will give our community the biggest hit, is the stifling of new innovative products. It costs a lot of money even if you don't figure it in dollars and count it as time someone spends on it, to release revolutionary, innovative technology. If someone was to develop a new mod or new vaping device of some sort, they could either make it on a scale of one or two, or try and produce it for the masses. If a person developing vaping technology, someone truly passionate about the hobby and community, and not charge a dime for all the time they spending creating and perfecting it. and with R&D and testing, etc, there is still the cost of manufacturing and distributing the product.
If there are no wages paid to anyone, said person who is making mods for free would still have to buy the raw materials upfront. To sell an authentic mod at a price most vapers buying mods would be happy with, we'll say maybe 5,000 units would be needed, that's really not enough to get prices where they need to be but it's all the capitol the bank will commit to with an unsold product. So Mr. Mod Maker would need to buy the raw material for those units up front, or else the discount people are expecting to get for a large production batch disappears. They would either need to hire a manufacturing company to produce them, or they could manufacture the mods themselves.
Manufacturing the mods themselves would be cheap on labor, but they are going to have to purchase or lease the equipment to machine the parts, pay overhead on the facility assuming it's someone like myself who has an office and shop sitting vacant on commercial property where manufacturing can take place, pay the sales and use taxes, purchase all the software needed, make or have someone make the appropriate tools and dies to machine the parts, cover enough insurance premiums to at least get the first batch out without being shut down, etc. Or they'll have to pay for the time and labor of whatever machine shop or manufacturing facility they hire, cover the tooling and machine setup fees, etc.
So now the mod maker has successfully made all that happen somehow and kept the banks financing the operating capitol off their backs long enough to get the first run produced and sent to the distributors with connections in the retail world. They manage to sell the mods for $50.00 each to break even for the initial investment. The first 1000 gets off to the distribution chain.
Now that there's an authentic best of the best top selling mod hitting the markets, a lot of buzz is created. While waiting on reviews to start coming back on that first 1,000 pieces, Mr. ModMaker checks out the forums, and sees the big news. "Vaper Billy Bob's Blog has just announced, Mr. ModMaker clones are being produced and sold for $20 with the discount code "ugotscrewed".
As a manufacturer considering using my skills, talents and equipment to produce vape gear and sell it at even cost because this is my passion, I see what happened to Mr. Modmaker when I attend an auction for machine shop equipment that his bank put on because he couldn't cover the huge upfront cost once Chinese clones hit the market.
Anyone with business experience will realize that dropping a couple hundred grand on manufacturing a product makes no economic sense knowing that you're releasing an innovative and original new design, long ago patented, into a market where China will have subpar quality clones made within a few weeks of your product launching. And launching with huge batches of products ready to ship doesn't do away with the problem, because many consumers will say "Wow if this is $50 I'm waiting on the clone, it will be really cheap if the authentic is so cheap."
Remember that the problem of a lack of innovation and new product designs isn't specific to any country of origin, China would clone Chinese companies in a heartbeat to make a few bucks, it's a different culture and environment with different laws, ethics, morals, social norms, etc. Just remember that when we drive a market like clones and counterfeits up by backing it with our dollars, we are pulling away from other parts of the market like product innovation.
As the company skimmed bankruptcy they shifted production to the east to lower costs but kept the premium retail price, and slapped on some extra for the original made in England versions then rename them the 'vintage' range.
Your Dr Martens are probably a representation of cheaper mass production meeting midrange/low end requirements to maximise margin, same thing i reckon nikes doing with air jordans which have dropped in quality but got way more expensive in the last few years. But thats not always the case as evident with the higher end of the technology industry, and doesn't have to be with the higher end of the ecig industry
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Yes, but the higher end of the technology industry- like Apple, has engineers and QC personnel at the FoxConn assembly plants, who are constantly monitoring production. No player in the e-cig industry has that kind of resources. The reason the Vuse is assembled in the US isn't just because it is a marketing ploy, but for quality control...
You made a good point as you're an American who wants more for less. Just think if you lived in China you might be able to save enough money to buy a Chinese clone. Whatever job you have they can do it for less in China, so don't gripe if you lose your job.
If the high quality standard is set my the mod maker then the manufacturer's will adhere to it, just look at the rose v2 clone by pallas and a couple others, indistinguishable and interchangeable with the original, absolutely no difference or set backs next to the og, the slug clone that dropped recently actually worked out a few kinks and got rid of the venting gap improving the looks.
I bet this squape reloaded clone dropping any time now will also be pretty close if not indistinguishable
Just because its from china doesn't means its inferior, and doesn't mean it cant be better
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But what it does mean is that if it's been manufactured without the consent of the original maker, it's theft.
It isn't just looks, but materials used, when it comes to products made of metals. They may put out a good batch or two, but lack of consistency is the norm for PRC manufacturing- short of very controlled cases- like Apple.
Imagination is a wonderful thing. I don't know how much goes to China and how much goes to the Philippines, Europe, Spain, Greece or any other country.
Considering the mainstream vaping device is a cigalike... It really depends on how much BTs market share is.
It is approaching 100 trillion as we speak. You may move with a steam shovel... In term of WGDP, ecigs is a thimble full.
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I'm not discussing the legitimacy of clones or doing that clone vs original bollox, i'm just saying that china is producing quality clones nowadays, they are getting better and better and will soon be bought not to be a 'sampler' to gauge an authentic purchase but bought in place of it - unless the buyer has moral or concerns or something.
Mod makers need to change the way they market and do business as as not everyone has facebook or wants to join groups, invite only forums and lists to obtain them, or more and more people will just get the clone. Like i said before the mutation x is a good example of an american designed RDA made in china, no supply issues, no quality issues a well made and well received rda at a steal of a price.
Someone said releasing the stumpy kit for the rose clone is too far and they should be left with something, i was gonna buy the original for my clone but its £40+ delivery and never in stock. Thats an open goal for cloners
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