FDA Bill Godshall commentary on FDA deeming proposals

[grandmato5]

buffaloguy- Within the proposal the FDA is proposing to regulate all the components including your mechanical mods, tanks, and rba's. We can certainly debate how realistic that is, BUT the fact is that is their intent right now. If we simply assume that's not possible we will find ourselves without many of the components we enjoy today. Realistically we'll likely always find a way to get what we need BUT do we want to have to depend upon a black market for our needs? I certainly don't. They have also stated they intent to add additional regulations in the future which no doubt at some point will involve liquid nicotine. That's not happening tomorrow but at some point you can bet it will happen.

As proposed at the moment based upon your own vaping habits it likely will be more then two years before YOU would personally feel any effects from their proposal even IF they were successful (for sake of argument at the moment) in regulating any of your components. IF you successfully become a 0 nic vapor and have vaping supplies that have a good chance of longevity you may never feel any harsh effects of their regulations.

Personally I could vape for many years into the future with the supplies that I own no matter what the FDA or states manage to do in coming years. My concern and what I beleive everyone's concern should be and that is for ALL those people that still haven't switched to vaping AND for the many people that do depend upon cig-a-likes and egos and vendor nic juice, ect. Not every person that vapes is going to do DIY or use mechanical and RBA's. Those of us that are active in ECF are a very small piece of the vaping public and we sometimes forget we aren't the mainstream vapors out in the world.

The sky is certainly not falling tomorrow. But now that we've seen the FDA's proposed regulations and have some actual insight into their plans our sky certainly will be falling someday in the future if we don't rally together today and fight for tomorrow.

 

[Astrolite]

It defines the components used to consume the nicotine/tobacco as a part of the 'tobacco product', minus raw materials used in its construction. That covers mods/toppers/etc.

Given that line of reasoning wouldn't a pipe be a regulated product, since it is used to consume tobacco? Are pipes currently regulated? Our delivery devices can, technically, be used to deliver non-nicotine liquid as well. Is someone working on a "general" response to this petition, as it appears they are asking for comments?

 

[rwoodin]

CASAA is readying a 'Call to Action' over the next couple of weeks.

CASAA: CASAA Assessment of FDA Deeming Regulation, April 25, 2014

 

[Kryyptyk]

You're kidding, right?

The only thing the FDA is earnest about is doing what they can to eliminate competition for the biggest players to take over the industry completely.

I am most definitely not kidding. You are generalizing the FDA, which is dangerous. The FDA isn't some faceless monolith, it is composed of many individuals. This isn't the 2009 blanket ban, and the 'e-cigarette' controversy has been publicized widely and has finally come to a head. We have a chance to submit our evidence and testimonies, and we should be expending all of our energy and resources to that end. All of this doom-and-gloom talk isn't anything but an indulgence we can't afford.

 

[Via!]

I'm wondering what you all think of this: isn't the "enemy of my enemy my friend" in this case? Big Tobacco, with their investment in cig-Alikes, like Blu and NJoy, just as interested in the outcome of FDA regs as we are? Dont Southern Politicians with their tobacco farmers as constituents also have an interest? I don't think that we vapers are as alone in this matter as we think we are...admittedly, we are in just the first few hours after release of the FDA statements..so we have some time...but we can't just sit in our chairs and vape for the next two years!

 

[Gato del Jugo]

My concern and what I beleive everyone's concern should be and that is for ALL those people that still haven't switched to vaping AND for the many people that do depend upon cig-a-likes and egos and vendor nic juice, ect. Not every person that vapes is going to do DIY or use mechanical and RBA's. Those of us that are active in ECF are a very small piece of the vaping public and we sometimes forget we aren't the mainstream vapors out in the world.

Which is why it's important for us to bring on as many people as possible.. that includes any current tobacco users, as well as those who are just dabbling in BT cigalikes...

At this point a lot of us have the duty to share our knowledge & experience.. through face-to-face, over the phone, via email, Facebook, Twitter, blogs, however we communicate with others.. Pull them away from BT, and bring them on board to our team & show 'em the ropes...

Heck, even on the ECF New Members board there's lots of newbies itching for answers & help, teetering on the edge between BT & more serious vaping..


Among other things, vaping is viral & vaping is fun.. Use that to our advantage to recruit & train our army...

 

[Gato del Jugo]

I'm wondering what you all think of this: isn't the "enemy of my enemy my friend" in this case? Big Tobacco, with their investment in cig-Alikes, like Blu and NJoy, just as interested in the outcome of FDA regs as we are?

Not really, no..

BT has a pretty big financial war-chest.. They've also been dealing with regulations for a long, long time..

In other words, they can handle this...


If they have to spend x amount of dollars to comply, with the longer-term goal of squashing the small- & mid-sized vape businesses so BT can grab a huge piece of the pie, then they're more than happy to spend that money as an investment to secure their throne in the vaping world...

 

[Myrany]

So... if equipment is included, then when I buy a 18650 battery for my mod is the vendor going to ask me what am I going to use it for? If I say for a flashlight, they'll quote me one price; if I say for an ecig, they'll quote me a higher price. Guess what my answer will be!

Don't see how they can enforce this. But then again, I think we're giving the legislators too much credit thinking they can grasp the concept of ecigs as a whole. All they see are the cigalikes and in their limited thinking they think they're covering all ecigs.

I'm going to sign off and watch Vikings. At least in that world, you know what's going to happen. Bye.

I remember years ago when CD burners came out there was a country that charged a higher price for "Music ready blank CDs" than it did for "Data ready Blank CDs". It was a way to cover the expected music piracy that was going to happen. In reality the only difference between the 2 CDs other than the music ones being nearly double the money was the labeling. Either could be used for either.

So your battery scenario is not completely impossible.

 

[wv2win]

Honestly I dont understand the issue with any of this. For the purposes of my vaping habits none of it applys to me and alot of other vapers I know. Im a diy guy. I can see how all this can effect new vapers, small shops and even mid size businesses. For them I am concerned and I get the issues.

But can someone please tell me how it impacts me? I use mech mods, use tanks, rba's, and make all of my own eliquid. As I can see it, all I ever buy is components. Liquid nicotine itself will still be available for sale, and even if its not in 2+ years Ill be vaping 0 nic less than a year from now.

For those that buy components only and are total diy'ers... how are we impacted by any of this? Im not trying to be ignorant here but I just dont see how they could stop or even impact someone like me.

So you basically are saying you "could give a S..." about anyone else or the fact that this is one more nail in the coffin of individual freedom. The new United States of Sheep.

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

Lol. Serious vapors better buy an easy to maintain metal mechanical mod and a couple of RTAs and RDAs that are stainless steel. They can't regulate organic cotton, Kanthal wire and batteries.
Could also be a DIY retailers dream. I carry food flavorings. I carry unflavored nicotine. I carry VG and PG. I have no idea how you are using those products but if you check on this website you can find out how to make a decent

I'm a serious vapor but never intended or thought I'd have to build my own vaping equipment. sigh.

 

[planes]

The FDA is smart and sneaky so they won't go to far because they don't want to eventually end up in court which they will probably lose since you can't call ecigs tobacco products. They are really nicotine delivery devices.

They will come down real hard on underage access and possibly limit retail access to certain establishments. Let's face it, if there ever was a device that mimicked tobacco, ecigs, especially in their 808 form do it in spades. I really don't think we could provide any argument against that. The entry point to real cigs has never been more pronounced.

Remember, we are coming from cigarettes and not virgins. Some kid now has all kinds of goodies to attract them to tobacco. Hopefully, any kid coming into nicotine for the first time will never make the leap to real tobacco from ecigs but one can't rule it out. We're looking at this backwards from how we were not as kids smoking for the first time.

They will come at this from a public safety angle not a tobacco angle if they have any sense. The FDA has lost some of their power due to some pretty terrible drug approvals so we're not in the day of Tryptophan idiocy or Phen Phen rash approvals though they still do ..... like approve drugs that grow breasts on little boys. OK they are idiots in white coats with a hammer and sickle so we're in trouble but we can take them to court.

As a side note: I used to go to the cop shop(police station) when I was a kid(14) and sneak down the back stairs to the cop entrance and buy Salems from the machine for 65 cents. A cop nowadays might arrest you. Not that they have machines anymore.

 

[Myrany]

I'm a serious vapor but never intended or thought I'd have to build my own vaping equipment. sigh.

We have 2 years to get ourselves set up pending a mess after that point. Have a vape and start doing homework.

RDA's are not difficult to manage. Many are not even all that expensive. Same goes for mech mods. If you buy quality many will last a lifetime without a ton of work on your part.

DIY liquid is not difficult though it does take a bit of practice and finesse to get the flavor you want.

The big choke points for the DIY person is 510 connections (no idea where one would get them once the supply dries up) and nicotine base (still the big choke point unless you can get down to 0 nic).

THe real crying shame is this is going to make it tough for people who have not yet switched to do it at all.

 

[~Sue~Feb2012]

We have 2 years to get ourselves set up pending a mess after that point. Have a vape and start doing homework.

RDA's are not difficult to manage. Many are not even all that expensive. Same goes for mech mods. If you buy quality many will last a lifetime without a ton of work on your part.

DIY liquid is not difficult though it does take a bit of practice and finesse to get the flavor you want.

The big choke points for the DIY person is 510 connections (no idea where one would get them once the supply dries up) and nicotine base (still the big choke point unless you can get down to 0 nic).

THe real crying shame is this is going to make it tough for people who have not yet switched to do it at all.

So true.

I DIY and the unflavored nic bse is the biggest part of that. I have no intentions of going to 0 nic. We can't let the FDA take it away. Like you say, the people smoking cigarettes who might be on the fence or thinking about starting to vape might not even get the chance.

 

[buffaloguy]

So you basically are saying you "could give a S..." about anyone else or the fact that this is one more nail in the coffin of individual freedom. The new United States of Sheep.

"For them I am concerned and I get the issues." What part of that statement did you miss?!? If you are gonna call me out like some kind of self serving narcissist athen at least have some leg to stand on. I am far from some apathetic fool and I have written, called, and talked in person with my elected officials. I contribute here and have for over two years.

The question I asked was how it effects me. You, need to learn how to read and contain your temper. I expressed my concern for others. No where did I say I was apathetic or selfish.

@Grandmato I havent read the whole document but to me it reads that the only time components or "accessories" will be regulated would be is if it is sold containing nicotine derived from tobacco. So if we are buying just an empty tank, a mod, wick, wire, batteries... separately without any attached nicotine IN the device being sold then there is no restriction or fda approvals needed. I seem to see vastly different opinions on this but that is how I have interpreted it. Am I wrong somehow? The juice/nicotine must be sold as a part of the device to face regulation?

 

[Myrany]

"For them I am concerned and I get the issues." What part of that statement did you miss?!? If you are gonna call me out like some kind of self serving narcissist athen at least have some leg to stand on. I am far from some apathetic fool and I have written, called, and talked in person with my elected officials. I contribute here and have for over two years.

The question I asked was how it effects me. You, need to learn how to read and contain your temper. I expressed my concern for others. No where did I say I was apathetic or selfish.

@Grandmato I havent read the whole document but to me it reads that the only time components or "accessories" will be regulated would be is if it is sold containing nicotine derived from tobacco. So if we are buying just an empty tank, a mod, wick, wire, batteries... separately without any attached nicotine IN the device being sold then there is no restriction or fda approvals needed. I seem to see vastly different opinions on this but that is how I have interpreted it. Am I wrong somehow? The juice/nicotine must be sold as a part of the device to face regulation?

The problem is on part of the document what you wrote seems true. In another part of the document anything that COULD be used to deliver nicotine is therefore a component not an accessory and is therefore subject to approval processes ( I want to say on page 7 but I could be wrong)

 

[buffaloguy]

Hmm, its amazing how people can read the same thing and come up with different intrepretations while both make sense. Im guessing the fda decided to use this disambiguation on purpose. Still seems that must be clarified. I was just hoping for a difinitive answer but Im thinking its too soon for that in the process.

Just one more thing to add to the list of issues I need to address with Schumer, Gillibrand, and cronies.

 

[Roger_Lafayette]

@Grandmato I havent read the whole document but to me it reads that the only time components or "accessories" will be regulated would be is if it is sold containing nicotine derived from tobacco. So if we are buying just an empty tank, a mod, wick, wire, batteries... separately without any attached nicotine IN the device being sold then there is no restriction or fda approvals needed. I seem to see vastly different opinions on this but that is how I have interpreted it. Am I wrong somehow? The juice/nicotine must be sold as a part of the device to face regulation?

She's right. Look at p.7. Also listen to FDA Deeming Teleconference 4/24/2014 - YouTube at 14:05 (Greg Conley's Q). Zeller says that a "component" is something "intended or expected" to be used as a part of a "finished tobacco product." And yes, that includes batteries and even O-rings. Are they going to regulate 86xxx batteries, O-rings, kanthal wire, etc? No, that would be crazy. But they do have the authority under the statute, and they are asserting that authority. This is what they are "deeming."

Now, are they going to regulate mechs, cartos etc.? Absolutely. They're going to have to regulate the pieces that go into a Green Smoke setup, because Altria (formerly PMI) now owns Green Smoke, and Green Smoke sells batteries and pre-filled cartos separately. You don't seriously think that they're going to let Altria lose the money they spent to acquire Green Smoke, do you? Besides, Altria has the money to litigate this to high heaven, and lots of FDA CTP people are going to end up working for Altria after all this is over.

Moreover since the ultimate purpose of this is to make sure that BT plus a few BV co.s (NJOY, LOGIC) get a monopoly, you can bet the farm that the FDA is going to regulate mechs and APVs and the whole nine yards, right up to and including drip tips. As long as the item is unique to vaping, it's going to be regulated. And as long as it interferes with the monopoly of BT + BV, it's going to be illegal to sell.

The only things that they can't regulate are: (a) 0% e-liquid; and (b) things like the vitAcig - 0% nic PV in a manufacturer-sealed cartidge. For that matter, some of the disposible e-hookahs are like that, too. As long as they can't be altered to vape liquid containing nic., and they aren't marketed as a therapy, the FDA has no jurisdiction over them.

It's also worth noting that your right to vape in various places (such as your own apartment - a city in CA just outlawed that in multi-unit residences) as well as in other places will depend on how many vapers there are, and/or whether enough vapers quit smoking. Once the world is restricted to cigAlikes, obviously the growth in vapers will slow down (if not reverse itself), and more vapers will be "dual users" since cigAlikes make it much harder to quit.

So even assuming that you're exclusively worried about your own self-interest (and I know that's not your position, as you indicated) ... you will still be affected in both of these ways.

Incidently, it's not at all clear that all of the water-soluble flavorings we have now will be available after all this is over. I'm sitting here w/ a vivi that has TFA creme de menthe w/ a shot of their whipped cream in it and a drop of VZ (vaping zone) koolada. I've also got TFA clove + cinnamon spice, TFA absinthe w/ VZ koolada, VZ espresso w/ TFA bittersweet choc., etc. etc. Not a nanoliter of nic in any of 'em. But I'm still not filling Altria's pockets by buying from Green Smoke. Mitch Zeller and his cohorts at the CTP don't like that one little bit. And they intend to stop me from doing it.

 

[Katya]

Just one more thing to add to the list of issues I need to address with Schumer, Gillibrand, and cronies.

Good luck with that.

 

[Katya]

THe real crying shame is this is going to make it tough for people who have not yet switched to do it at all.

The FDA will be responsible for every death of every smoker who will not be able to switch to vaping easily and affordably.

 

[aikanae1]

The FDA will be responsible for every death of every smoker who will not be able to switch to vaping easily and affordably.

So will the CDC and various publich health agencies. I think that's worse than tobacco companies because these agencies were in a position of trust. They are undermining their own crediability. Reddit has some very good threads on this too.