Cellucotton- Rayon/Health/Performance

[Fozzy71]

Thanks, Alter - I know the fibers themselves don't shrink, but taking up less space is, in simple terms, shrinking. So my thought was, for a kayfun Mini 3, with a restricted size juice well/cavity, why would you really need to thin it? I mean, if I've been putting an amount of cotton in them, and it expands (fibers become further apart, taking up more space), it seems when juiced, the rayon would take up less space in those wells, and potentially have a negative affect on juice flow/flooding.

Anyway, I always see the recommendation to thin the tails, but no one mentions atty type or coil size. And it kind of seems counterintuitive when you hear "it takes up less space, so use even less in this area." Anyway, I should get it today, and find out for myself. I'm sure I'll thin it out, according to yours/everyone's recommendations. It'll probably make more sense to me when I use it and see it juiced.

In an RDA, and bottom feed decks like the boreas v1, you should thin the tails a lot more than you want to in an RTA that has traditional juice wells. You want to thin just enough to fill the juice ports without allowing juice to flood the deck or leak. How much that is for each atty is the trick.

 

[Walter_Sobchak]

Just started reading "Rayon Wick - Better Flow, Flavor, Longevity, and Nic Hit!! - Pt.2" and I have a ? concerning thinning the tails. I've seen it referred to as "thinning" but also as "clipping". When thinning out the tails with Rayon do I rake out excess fibers like I do with cotton or do I cut a portion of the tail to reduce the excess?

 

[Letitia]

Just started reading "Rayon Wick - Better Flow, Flavor, Longevity, and Nic Hit!! - Pt.2" and I have a ? concerning thinning the tails. I've seen it referred to as "thinning" but also as "clipping". When thinning out the tails with Rayon do I rake out excess fibers like I do with cotton or do I cut a portion of the tail to reduce the excess?

Some just cut tails at an angle or an arrow shape instead of thinning.

 

[stols001]

I actually thin mine, just like cotton, but often not very much. It depends on the tank, honestly, and the coil. But thinning rayon is as easy as thinning cotton.

Anna

 

[halfempty]

Just started reading "Rayon Wick - Better Flow, Flavor, Longevity, and Nic Hit!! - Pt.2" and I have a ? concerning thinning the tails. I've seen it referred to as "thinning" but also as "clipping". When thinning out the tails with Rayon do I rake out excess fibers like I do with cotton or do I cut a portion of the tail to reduce the excess?

Both methods are useful, depending on the application. Personally I prefer thinning, but in certain cases like the tiny RBA in the Kanger Subtank Mini, cutting off part of the wick after it exits the coil so it doesn't bunch up against the sidewalls is better.

Also note that coil density and thinning are more important in higher power applications. In lower wattage uses rayon is very forgiving, and the differences are less noticeable.

 

[DaveP]

I'm not headed back to cotton either, but I do need to buy rayon. So Sally's beauty supply is a good place? (I had a generous member send me some rayon, but it seems I will be using it for a while.)

If there's a better place than Sally's let me know, as I would have a hard time walking in there without buying a leg waxing kit, I've been wanting one FOREVER ever since my hairdresser told me to go. HATE shaving, with a dire passion.... So it might be cheaper to buy it more expensively somewhere else, or at least spend less of my willpower.... Back when I was dying my hair I was in there all the time, but I'm officially an old lady letting my platinum grey hair grow in pridefully.... A lot of folk believe I'm still dying it but no, I am just enjoying the heck out of my "grey" and I can't wait until it all switches.

So, I guess I'm open to direction here as far as rayon? If Sally's is fine, I will just Go. There.

Anna

Make sure the box you buy says "100% Rayon Fibers" on the box. Some of the Cellucotton is actually cotton, not Rayon. Both boxes look the same except for the 100% Rayon Fibers printed on the box. The 10ft roll that comes in a bag is cotton, BTW.
CelluCotton Beauty Coil 500 ft.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Make sure the box you buy says "100% Rayon Fibers" on the box. Some of the Cellucotton is actually cotton, not Rayon. Both boxes look the same except for the 100% Rayon Fibers printed on the box.
CelluCotton Beauty Coil 10ft.

Yep - found that out when I went to the local Sally Beauty. They apparently don't offer the rayon version at all in 10'. My post from last week.
Both are called Cellucotton for some (ridiculous) reason, but...

 

[Alter]

Anyway, I always see the recommendation to thin the tails, but no one mentions atty type or coil size. And it kind of seems counterintuitive when you hear "it takes up less space, so use even less in this area." Anyway, I should get it today, and find out for myself. I'm sure I'll thin it out, according to yours/everyone's recommendations. It'll probably make more sense to me when I use it and see it juiced.

I in all my postings refer to the kanger subtank mini as the atty I use. The rare kayfun and even rarer protank gets used anymore to vape with. I like clapton coils and to get a 28/34 clapton to become @1.4ohms you need it to be 3.5mmID along with 5 wraps and that takes up the entire subtank RBA area so it restricts the airflow and massive thick tails that will never fit nicely into the RBA unless their thinned. I now make 30/34 claptons that using 2.5mmID coil with 5 wraps fits much better with room for good airflow and makes the 1.4ohm happy place. I still thin the tails of the 2.5mm coil cause less is more with rayon tail bulkiness.

Just started reading "Rayon Wick - Better Flow, Flavor, Longevity, and Nic Hit!! - Pt.2" and I have a ? concerning thinning the tails. I've seen it referred to as "thinning" but also as "clipping". When thinning out the tails with Rayon do I rake out excess fibers like I do with cotton or do I cut a portion of the tail to reduce the excess?

I clipped, trimmed using hands of a surgeon for years the rayon tails and it worked just fine but in a lot of cases still too much tail bulk. What caused me to do the V8 slap to the forehead was watching this video and thinning this way changed totally how I deal with the tails. No need to pay attention to what he's building but the 30:25 mark after he cuts his cotton(same scenario with rayon) then how he thins it out is the trick. My only difference is I don't pull the excess like he does but cut it so I don't take strands from the coil.

 

[DaveP]

Yep - found that out when I went to the local Sally Beauty. They apparently don't offer the rayon version at all in 10'. My post from last week.
Both are called Cellucotton for some (ridiculous) reason, but...
View attachment 704295

I bought my blue box of 40ft Rayon Cellucotton about 3 years ago along with a red box of pure cotton coil. I've been using the cotton since that time and just recently switched to Rayon. The first few times I tried it I didn't give the rayon time to break in and start producing flavor. I'm sold on Rayon now. It does seem to be dependent on getting the right fit in the coil to maximize flavor. I'm glad I finally figured out that tighter is better. If you can pull it through a 28ga coil without twisting the wick as you go it's probably too loose. I've used the wick twisting trick for a long time to get cotton wicks tight in the coil without bending the legs.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

I in all my postings refer to the kanger subtank mini as the atty I use. The rare kayfun and even rarer protank gets used anymore to vape with. I like clapton coils and to get a 28/34 clapton to become @1.4ohms you need it to be 3.5mmID along with 5 wraps and that takes up the entire subtank RBA area so it restricts the airflow and massive thick tails that will never fit nicely into the RBA unless their thinned. I now make 30/34 claptons that using 2.5mmID coil with 5 wraps fits much better with room for good airflow and makes the 1.4ohm happy place. I still thin the tails of the 2.5mm coil cause less is more with rayon tail bulkiness.



I clipped, trimmed using hands of a surgeon for years the rayon tails and it worked just fine but in a lot of cases still too much tail bulk. What caused me to do the V8 slap to the forehead was watching this video and thinning this way changed totally how I deal with the tails. No need to pay attention to what he's building but the 30:25 mark after he cuts his cotton(same scenario with rayon) then how he thins it out is the trick. My only difference is I don't pull the excess like he does but cut it so I don't take strands from the coil.

Yeah, that video kind of helps. I've seen it done before, but now watching it (the wicking portion at about 30:45), and thinking it thru, I'm realizing the thinning has less to do with how much material sits on the deck at the juice intake holes - and more about opening up the space between the fibers to allow more juice to travel up the fiber with capillary action easier than if the fibers are jammed tightly together. Sort of like using a larger hose to transport more liquid. So it makes sense to thin almost up to the coil. And doing it this way allows you to have the coil fully "stuffed" to make good contact with the coil and prevent popping. Thanks for the post.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

I bought my blue box of 40ft Rayon Cellucotton about 3 years ago along with a red box of pure cotton coil. I've been using the cotton since that time and just recently switched to Rayon. The first few times I tried it I didn't give the rayon time to break in and start producing flavor. I'm sold on Rayon now. It does seem to be dependent on getting the right fit in the coil to maximize flavor. I'm glad I finally figured out that tighter is better. If you can pull it through a 28ga coil without twisting the wick it's probably too loose.

With cotton bacon, I don't notice a real big difference on break in. Tastes pretty good right away. But for me, day 2 (after about 2-3 ml) is usually the best it's gonna be. How long of a break-in did you notice with rayon?

 

[Alter]

It does seem to be dependent on getting the right fit in the coil to maximize flavor. I'm glad I finally figured out that tighter is better. If you can pull it through a 28ga coil without twisting the wick it's probably too loose.

Not tight enough is the most common mistake people make wicking the rayon, have a bad breakin taste then shelve the rayon. Literally you have to be at the point of distorting the coil to get the rayon through. Twisting it as tight as can be just to get it through the coil then untwist and make all the fibers straight and pretty. Can't pull the rayon through or you begin to stretch the fibers then it loosens up. Twisting as your going through the coil to keep the twist tight so when you begin to untwist it doesn't loosen.

Ya Brewdawg....the tails need space to pull the juice up so too bulk of wick is counter productive and actually blocks the flow to the coil. I hold down one side of the build then begin my thinning about 1mm away from the coil wire so I'm not pulling out any fibers from inside the coil.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Not tight enough is the most common mistake people make wicking the rayon, have a bad breakin taste then shelve the rayon.
Ya Brewdawg....the tails need space to pull the juice up so too bulk of wick is counter productive and actually blocks the flow to the coil. I hold down one side of the build then begin my thinning about 1mm away from the coil wire so I'm not pulling out any fibers from inside the coil.

Not tight enough with cotton way my biggest mistake when learning - especially with spaced coils. Some pretty powerful popping went on for a coil or two until I learned to make it as tight as I could without distorting the coil. I know I'll have to work on my twisting technique to get it right on rayon.
Wish it'd show up! USPS always shows delivery several days before something is actually delivered- Sunday this time. I guess they count it delivered when they give it to your mailma...mailperson. And they put it in my box whenever suits them.

 

[Alter]

Some pretty powerful popping went on for a coil or two until I learned to make it as tight as I could without distorting the coil. I know I'll have to work on my twisting technique to get it right on rayon.

I have really never had popping problem with any of my attys enough that you get hot droplets into the mouth, so I have not had to really research the cause and solution. I did a very short bout with contact or micro coils but never liked them maybe cause I could not grasp how juice gets into the center then vaporizes inside a tightly bound coil. The few I did make I just burned the center out so never bothered with them. I enjoy the spaced clapton coil enough. Been there and done that with subohming and it passed just like a phase so reverted back to the higher ohm building along with making a 30/34 clapton using kanthal, SS or both mixed either way just put the icing on my cake, plenty of cloudz and easy on the batts.
I still eyeball too much rayon to twist into the coil sometimes so don't feel outta place taking a few attempts to hit it right. There is another way to wick the coil using less wick and inserting from both ends of the coil so the tails are even mass so maybe someone chime in on where the thread is...I have long forgotten. I found that way more hassle and fighting to get both sides inserted than stretching the wick a bit pulling it through but having the tail on one side of the coil thicker than the other doesn't matter if you thin afterwards.
Spacing a coil some think you have to have a gap between the wraps...not true. Some of my spaced coils especially claptons you can barely put a piece of paper between, too much space could also lead to popping cause the juice between the wraps doesn't get hot enough and boils and bubbles.

 

[Letitia]

I have really never had popping problem with any of my attys enough that you get hot droplets into the mouth, so I have not had to really research the cause and solution. I did a very short bout with contact or micro coils but never liked them maybe cause I could not grasp how juice gets into the center then vaporizes inside a tightly bound coil. The few I did make I just burned the center out so never bothered with them. I enjoy the spaced clapton coil enough. Been there and done that with subohming and it passed just like a phase so reverted back to the higher ohm building along with making a 30/34 clapton using kanthal, SS or both mixed either way just put the icing on my cake, plenty of cloudz and easy on the batts.
I still eyeball too much rayon to twist into the coil sometimes so don't feel outta place taking a few attempts to hit it right. There is another way to wick the coil using less wick and inserting from both ends of the coil so the tails are even mass so maybe someone chime in on where the thread is...I have long forgotten. I found that way more hassle and fighting to get both sides inserted than stretching the wick a bit pulling it through but having the tail on one side of the coil thicker than the other doesn't matter if you thin afterwards.
Spacing a coil some think you have to have a gap between the wraps...not true. Some of my spaced coils especially claptons you can barely put a piece of paper between, too much space could also lead to popping cause the juice between the wraps doesn't get hot enough and boils and bubbles.

Glad you posted this. Been getting a lot of crackling with my dual build in rda and didn't know why. Spaces are pretty wide. Will wrap another pair and test your theory. Hope you are rigjt. No spitting but the noise is irritating.

 

[halfempty]

There is another way to wick the coil using less wick and inserting from both ends of the coil so the tails are even mass so maybe someone chime in on where the thread is...I have long forgotten. I found that way more hassle and fighting to get both sides inserted than stretching the wick a bit pulling it through but having the tail on one side of the coil thicker than the other doesn't matter if you thin afterwards.

Ah yes, the old Double Insertion method. I find it useful when wicking a drop in coil, like the CLR or the ECR where you can't get your fingers in there to stabilize the coil. Once you master the technique they say it's easier. I never mastered the technique, so not easier for me.

Here's the link from the old rayon thread I think you were looking for:
Rayon wick, better flow, flavor, saturation and Nic Hit!

 

[Alter]

Ah yes, the old Double Insertion method

Thats it...now that I see the name again a smile appears.

 

[Brewdawg1181]

Ah yes, the old Double Insertion method.

May be useful, but this makes me afraid to click the link.

 

[halfempty]

Thats it...now that I see the name again a smile appears.

May be useful, but this makes me afraid to click the link.

You have no idea how hard it was for me not to call it the Double Pen........ method.

 

[suprtrkr]

Thanks, Alter - I know the fibers themselves don't shrink, but taking up less space is, in simple terms, shrinking. So my thought was, for a Kayfun Mini 3, with a restricted size juice well/cavity, why would you really need to thin it? I mean, if I've been putting an amount of cotton in them, and it expands (fibers become further apart, taking up more space), it seems when juiced, the rayon would take up less space in those wells, and potentially have a negative affect on juice flow/flooding.

Anyway, I always see the recommendation to thin the tails, but no one mentions atty type or coil size. And it kind of seems counterintuitive when you hear "it takes up less space, so use even less in this area." Anyway, I should get it today, and find out for myself. I'm sure I'll thin it out, according to yours/everyone's recommendations. It'll probably make more sense to me when I use it and see it juiced.

I usually do, but mostly to not take up any unnecessary juice storage space. The stuff wicks like crazy. Just a tiny few fibers down in the juice is enough for massive juice transport. Honestly, I dunno how it does it, but I know it does.