Uhmmm.... duh?
Unless someone here is paying the bills, I don't see where they have a right to complain.
Change ECF Classifieds Rules to not allow profiteering !
- Thread starter TommyGunBC
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Uhmmm.... duh?
Unless someone here is paying the bills, I don't see where they have a right to complain.
Technically we all pay the bills by using a forum with adds, albeit minimal adds. Plus those of us who are supporting members directly contribute to the bills.
Aside from that, people give the mods here a very hard time, but personally they do an amazing job - much better than dozens of other forums I've used. They really facilitate the feeling of community around here and keep the trouble-makers out.
On top of that, they give us the right to complain by graciously accepting courteous feedback privately and healthy debate and polls publicly.
Aside from that, people give the mods here a very hard time, but personally they do an amazing job - much better than dozens of other forums I've used. They really facilitate the feeling of community around here and keep the trouble-makers out.
On top of that, they give us the right to complain by graciously accepting courteous feedback privately and healthy debate and polls publicly.
Is it me, or is the e-liquid forum looking mighty fun all of the sudden. Unsubscribing now...toodle loo. I will see (most) of y'all later.
Amurica, heck yeah!
Sorry, just wanted to add a bit of blind patriotism... Every argument needs blind patriotism.
Sorry, just wanted to add a bit of blind patriotism... Every argument needs blind patriotism.
Hahahaha. Yep. Heck, I've never even been to the classifieds forum, I just like to argue.
Me too Mr. Mann. I had my say. I come here for fun. I go to political forums if I want to vent. I don't want to lose the purpose of why I come to ECF.
Hahahaha. Yep. Heck, I've never even been to the classifieds forum, I just like to argue.
We need a formal debate forum I-tell'yuh-whut
The shame of it all Vapes is you and I would probably get along great on 99% of all the other issues. We'll see you around.
I've never bought anything in the classifieds, I've never sold anything in the classifieds, and i see no reason why I ever would do either. Peace out friends.
I'm sure we would, you seem like a groovy dude and I meant no disrespect. I'll admit that my claim that you probably wished this were America was in poor taste, but I love an edgy debate inside the rules. I've been reading through your started threads and they definitely drum up some good discussion. PM coming your way.
The issue, to me, is not as much the protection of the customer. As people have said, no one is forced to buy anything. In many cases, a person might be happy to pay a huge markup just to get what they want.
The problem with someone buying something like a zen at a reasonable price then flipping it right away for a huge profit, is that they are not the one who deserves that profit. What work have they done? The maker of the product deserves to take that level of profit. In zen's case, I think he doesn't want to sell to the highest bidder. He wants to sell at good prices so that people will be able to use his products.
After enough blatant profiteering, it can get depressing for a maker of such things. I have seen this same thing happen before, with a different product (not a pv), and eventually the maker shut down his business. He could have started selling his stuff for nearly whatever price he wanted, but he didn't want to do that. And when he priced his stuff reasonably, he saw so many of his things being auctioned off right after they were bought from him that he couldn't keep going.
I don't want to seem melodramatic. But this type of profiteering can really kill the type of community there is here with mods, etc.
It is a very specific thing going on, it doesn't mean that nothing can be sold at a profit. It isn't impossible to stop. And it is worth stopping, at least where we have control over it (here on the forum). Let the product flippers go elsewhere if they must.
The problem with someone buying something like a zen at a reasonable price then flipping it right away for a huge profit, is that they are not the one who deserves that profit. What work have they done? The maker of the product deserves to take that level of profit. In zen's case, I think he doesn't want to sell to the highest bidder. He wants to sell at good prices so that people will be able to use his products.
After enough blatant profiteering, it can get depressing for a maker of such things. I have seen this same thing happen before, with a different product (not a pv), and eventually the maker shut down his business. He could have started selling his stuff for nearly whatever price he wanted, but he didn't want to do that. And when he priced his stuff reasonably, he saw so many of his things being auctioned off right after they were bought from him that he couldn't keep going.
I don't want to seem melodramatic. But this type of profiteering can really kill the type of community there is here with mods, etc.
It is a very specific thing going on, it doesn't mean that nothing can be sold at a profit. It isn't impossible to stop. And it is worth stopping, at least where we have control over it (here on the forum). Let the product flippers go elsewhere if they must.
Here's my view:
1) It's bad.
Leaving "capitalist" consideration aside for now, I think it is fairly clear to a majority of people that there is an immoral component to buying products with the specific intention of re-selling them at a higher price. I will not even delve into why that is.
The fact of such immorality is not quite relevant by itself. It becomes a dire issue once it starts to become a pattern of behavior for certain members and a systemic pattern for the environment itself. Read - some people do that all the time and, slowly, this beomes the main activity type. Such immoral behavior affects both the nature and the standing of ECF as a whole.
This is the least defensible argument.
It makes sense only if you feel, like me, that vapers form a beautiful community, and that some of the values ECF fosters are cooperation and mutual help within this community. In this particular case, however, this should be the strongest argument.
2) A commercial, for profit brokerage environment does not belong on ECF Classifieds.
Partially leaving morals behind, and becoming quite utilitarian, is important to note that such type of activity is not what a community classifieds system is for. The reason, the only valid reason why ECF should have that section, is for members to pass on devices they have no use for, and for some members to be able to find cheaper used devices.
When such section becomes a platform for profitable ventures, most of which exploit market imbalances for highly speculative transactions then - regardless o fit being "moral" or not - the nature of the Classifieds section is profoundly changed. It is now a space of commercial activity, ostensibly a place of business for unregistered and untaxed brokers. I am unaware of any legal consequences to that, but the essential point is that ECF then ends up providing an essential and free service to a select group of businessmen, rather than accomplishing its stated mission to serve the community at large.
Such a commercial marketplace could exist, indeed it might be a good idea. But it cannot rely on the goodwill necessarily associated to a "member's classifieds" section, nor should it be provided for free, nor should such brokers be vetted only by their owning a PayPal account.
In this view, ECF fails to do it's "job" and does not serve me anymore. Moreover, ECF has rules, some say draconian rules, for vendors. This is felt necessary to serve the community. However, ECF betrays the interests of these vendors by allowing true, obvious business to happen in the classifieds section without rules and control. So long as you make or import something, you are at the mercy of the vendor status. If you just re-sell stuff at marked up prices, you are just a member using the classifieds.
ECF fails both real "regular members" and vendors by allowing this to continue.
3) The ECF classifieds section is a dark alley where use of flashlights is banned.
Coming back to the capitalist interpretation - it is often claimed that this is a free market and that, somehow, makes it all better. It would be silly to go into more sophisticated Economics argumentation for or against this, but my stance here simple. The scalping section of ECF (aka Classifeds) is not a free market, as a direct consequence of ECF rules. A free market exists only in a transparet environment, in which information about sellers, buyers, pricing, availability and demand is not only free and easily accessible but, preferably, actively provided by the operator of the marketplace.
ECF does quite the opposite - they ban discussion about price. They have reason for that - to keep Classifieds forums reasonably usable by avoiding flame wars. This shows that ECF is not equipped to serve as a true marketplace. By being unable to regulate and protect the traders in a way that ensures fairness and transparency, ECF fails lamentably at providing the substrate for a truly free market. Just like "freedom", in general, a free market cannot exist in an "unlimited" context.
As stated above, a brokerage environment, a dedicated marketplace for profitable ventures offering a variety of deals might be something we should have. If I were a businessman, I'd open it under the name "The Vape Exchange" right now. I'd have complex search and compare tools, thorough vetting and escrow services and I'd enforce return policies.
But that's different. It may or may not work, but it would all require some regulation and enforcement, and some effort towards transparency and normalization. One may debate if the "house" should be able to intervene in the pricing policies or not - I'd rather say not, as long as transparency and actual registration, along with dispute resolution and escrow are provided.
ECF, however, provides a strict "buyer beware" policy, attempts to remain purely indifferent (except for hindering the free flow of information) and is generally impotent to protect either the sellers or the buyers in any way. This is somewhat appropriate for a community swaps place, where people can pay forward their used stuff and people can find some deals on gear, but NOT appropriate for such business like high ticket item speculative trading.
1) It's bad.
Leaving "capitalist" consideration aside for now, I think it is fairly clear to a majority of people that there is an immoral component to buying products with the specific intention of re-selling them at a higher price. I will not even delve into why that is.
The fact of such immorality is not quite relevant by itself. It becomes a dire issue once it starts to become a pattern of behavior for certain members and a systemic pattern for the environment itself. Read - some people do that all the time and, slowly, this beomes the main activity type. Such immoral behavior affects both the nature and the standing of ECF as a whole.
This is the least defensible argument.
It makes sense only if you feel, like me, that vapers form a beautiful community, and that some of the values ECF fosters are cooperation and mutual help within this community. In this particular case, however, this should be the strongest argument.
2) A commercial, for profit brokerage environment does not belong on ECF Classifieds.
Partially leaving morals behind, and becoming quite utilitarian, is important to note that such type of activity is not what a community classifieds system is for. The reason, the only valid reason why ECF should have that section, is for members to pass on devices they have no use for, and for some members to be able to find cheaper used devices.
When such section becomes a platform for profitable ventures, most of which exploit market imbalances for highly speculative transactions then - regardless o fit being "moral" or not - the nature of the Classifieds section is profoundly changed. It is now a space of commercial activity, ostensibly a place of business for unregistered and untaxed brokers. I am unaware of any legal consequences to that, but the essential point is that ECF then ends up providing an essential and free service to a select group of businessmen, rather than accomplishing its stated mission to serve the community at large.
Such a commercial marketplace could exist, indeed it might be a good idea. But it cannot rely on the goodwill necessarily associated to a "member's classifieds" section, nor should it be provided for free, nor should such brokers be vetted only by their owning a PayPal account.
In this view, ECF fails to do it's "job" and does not serve me anymore. Moreover, ECF has rules, some say draconian rules, for vendors. This is felt necessary to serve the community. However, ECF betrays the interests of these vendors by allowing true, obvious business to happen in the classifieds section without rules and control. So long as you make or import something, you are at the mercy of the vendor status. If you just re-sell stuff at marked up prices, you are just a member using the classifieds.
ECF fails both real "regular members" and vendors by allowing this to continue.
3) The ECF classifieds section is a dark alley where use of flashlights is banned.
Coming back to the capitalist interpretation - it is often claimed that this is a free market and that, somehow, makes it all better. It would be silly to go into more sophisticated Economics argumentation for or against this, but my stance here simple. The scalping section of ECF (aka Classifeds) is not a free market, as a direct consequence of ECF rules. A free market exists only in a transparet environment, in which information about sellers, buyers, pricing, availability and demand is not only free and easily accessible but, preferably, actively provided by the operator of the marketplace.
ECF does quite the opposite - they ban discussion about price. They have reason for that - to keep Classifieds forums reasonably usable by avoiding flame wars. This shows that ECF is not equipped to serve as a true marketplace. By being unable to regulate and protect the traders in a way that ensures fairness and transparency, ECF fails lamentably at providing the substrate for a truly free market. Just like "freedom", in general, a free market cannot exist in an "unlimited" context.
As stated above, a brokerage environment, a dedicated marketplace for profitable ventures offering a variety of deals might be something we should have. If I were a businessman, I'd open it under the name "The Vape Exchange" right now. I'd have complex search and compare tools, thorough vetting and escrow services and I'd enforce return policies.
But that's different. It may or may not work, but it would all require some regulation and enforcement, and some effort towards transparency and normalization. One may debate if the "house" should be able to intervene in the pricing policies or not - I'd rather say not, as long as transparency and actual registration, along with dispute resolution and escrow are provided.
ECF, however, provides a strict "buyer beware" policy, attempts to remain purely indifferent (except for hindering the free flow of information) and is generally impotent to protect either the sellers or the buyers in any way. This is somewhat appropriate for a community swaps place, where people can pay forward their used stuff and people can find some deals on gear, but NOT appropriate for such business like high ticket item speculative trading.
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A shrewd trader is taking advantage of a limited market place for hard to get objects. Likely, he is putting his name on the lists, paying the money and waiting to receive his items from the manufacturing retailer. Then he uses these items for his own profit via the classifieds. Immoral? Hardly in my view. I have seen on Facebook, and elsewhere, many people pursuing these items with no regard for what THEY pay. This will obviously create a seller willing to advantage himself. Human nature, after all. It is not the seller who is the sole evil doer. The buyer too, plays his part in this game. In the drug trade, is the seller the only one creating, abetting, and contributing to the problem? Remember, without the buyers willingness, to pay what most consider outlandish prices, we wouldn't be having this thread. My opinion, someone willing to pay $450.00 for a used piece of vaping equipment should be classed as a "fool and his money." Many good bargains can be had in the classifieds, just use your good sense and stay away from the extremes. No problem for myself, if you want to waste your money while enriching a Sharpie. Certainly over-regulation is not the answer, common sense is.
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There should be no restrictions in regards to profiteering. Market determines selling price .Asking price is just that.
While ECF is and should be a community of shared knowledge , there are many people with different needs ,motives,
ethics and values. I take notes of the way members conduct themselves on this forum. I help where I can . I don't like "profiteering"
myself and will not participate by taking advantage of others . The items sold in the classies are luxury items. We can all find vaping supplies elsewhere.
We are going to have to be satisfied with identifying and having the sense of community as outlined in the original post in a different way.
When I used cigarettes , I didn't like nor feel everyone who smoked was a "kindred spirit". Same at ECF. In a utopian society perhaps . The world we live in is much different . I just won't associate with people who I find mean , disrespectful or opportunistic. I make those rules of whom I associate myself . No one makes those rules for me.
While ECF is and should be a community of shared knowledge , there are many people with different needs ,motives,
ethics and values. I take notes of the way members conduct themselves on this forum. I help where I can . I don't like "profiteering"
myself and will not participate by taking advantage of others . The items sold in the classies are luxury items. We can all find vaping supplies elsewhere.
We are going to have to be satisfied with identifying and having the sense of community as outlined in the original post in a different way.
When I used cigarettes , I didn't like nor feel everyone who smoked was a "kindred spirit". Same at ECF. In a utopian society perhaps . The world we live in is much different . I just won't associate with people who I find mean , disrespectful or opportunistic. I make those rules of whom I associate myself . No one makes those rules for me.
If you don't like the price of an item, no one is forcing you to buy it.
I think the only real point in all of this is that no one here is forcing anyone to buy anything--that can't be stated enough. First of all, if you have $500 dollars to spend on a PV, then it probably won't hurt. I mean, c'mon!? Does anybody remember the Beanie Baby rage?
These need to be quoted.
While there are some people who think this whole business of vaping and vaping gear should be run like a collective for the people, the reality is that this is coming from a very specific segment of the vaping community. It's this specific army that marches forth to do battle with anyone trying to make a profit on their favored .product. Their fury is much less aroused when other products sell for highly inflated prices, they do not typically "go to the wall" to try and prevent profiteering, just profiteering of their beloved brand. I also understand the general sentiment and in general I think it's very nice. But what you are trying to do is get a rule to make supply and demand go away. I suspect no rule you could put into place will make this happen. .Could you push it off of the ECF? Maybe, but just look at government's ability to control black markets, the reason that never works is because the law of supply and demand keeps working just like gravity, wether you like it or not, whether you believe it or not and even if you pass some rules or laws against it. At worst it will have no effect, at best it will be slightly harder and more expensive to buy your high demand items..
At the fundamental level the highly inflated prices demanded and paid are a result of not enough supply. If you feel better blaming them on evil profiteers and bad people who will pay the profiteers price, um ok. Forget limited edition, one of a kind's and collectibles. Those don't count. But, if for instance you are talking about a current attomizer, that has been, is being, and is planned on being made and sold in the future, the ONLY SOLUTION to distorted pricing is to MAKE ENOUGH TO AT LEAST COME CLOSE TO MEETING DEMAND!! I absolutely promise you that if people were able to buy what they wanted at the retail price, very very few would pay 3X that in the classifieds. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think so
If a product in demand continues to be produced in quantities that only meet a fraction of the demand for it, nothing you wish, say or do is going to prevent the distortion of price. No more than if you deny gravity, you will just float away.
If you want to argue that it shouldn't be allowed on the ECF, ok fine. That won't make it stop, or go away but I guess it could make it go happen somewhere else so you wouldn't have to see..
Supply and demand in relationship to price is not capitalism, or American, or global, or an opinion it's just a mathematical equation. Unless you can effectively set a price, legislate its adherence and have the ability to enforce it (impossible). It will continue to be so..
At the fundamental level the highly inflated prices demanded and paid are a result of not enough supply. If you feel better blaming them on evil profiteers and bad people who will pay the profiteers price, um ok. Forget limited edition, one of a kind's and collectibles. Those don't count. But, if for instance you are talking about a current attomizer, that has been, is being, and is planned on being made and sold in the future, the ONLY SOLUTION to distorted pricing is to MAKE ENOUGH TO AT LEAST COME CLOSE TO MEETING DEMAND!! I absolutely promise you that if people were able to buy what they wanted at the retail price, very very few would pay 3X that in the classifieds. I could be wrong about this, but I don't think so
If a product in demand continues to be produced in quantities that only meet a fraction of the demand for it, nothing you wish, say or do is going to prevent the distortion of price. No more than if you deny gravity, you will just float away.
If you want to argue that it shouldn't be allowed on the ECF, ok fine. That won't make it stop, or go away but I guess it could make it go happen somewhere else so you wouldn't have to see..
Supply and demand in relationship to price is not capitalism, or American, or global, or an opinion it's just a mathematical equation. Unless you can effectively set a price, legislate its adherence and have the ability to enforce it (impossible). It will continue to be so..
There is a very large and glaring problem with this. The new vaper, coming here to a community to purchase a used item finds something he has no idea about and buys it because someone said it was a good deal in the for sale thread. He pays double for an item that is still being manufactured. You can say it is a good deal but you can't say it is a bad deal. You can't have your cake and eat it too with everything else in this world. Why does ECF allow this????
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Again, this is not a matter of abolishing capitalsim It's a matter of dealing with what has grown into a highly speculative brokerage business activity on a high profile community website.
See, ECF actually understands its role and mission as for the good of this community. They do regulate as to protect the community. Vendors have to go through a thorough vetting process and are subject to strict rules. ECF does not allow vendors who sell overpriced or low quality items or who otherwise have shady business practices. It has nothing to do with free market or one's opinion about economics. One could easily retort - if those sites are able to sell overpriced crap to fools, let it be that way. But, no, the problem is not whether such vendors are allowed to do business , but whether or not they should be able to do their business here.
ECF claims it stands for certain values and, over the time, has even been accused of enforcing its policies too drastically. It does so to enhance the spirit of community and to preserve its members' relative safety in every respect. The only blaring exception is the manner in which the Classifieds section is ran.
See, the bad vendors I mentioned base their business on lack of information availability and sell outdated or overpriced gear that way. On the ECF classifieds, when outrageous prices are asked for and all comments say "great deal, GLWS" it's exactly the same thing. ECF literally hosts the equivalent of the vendor sites it otherwise bans!
I say, let anyone profit from the market imbalances if they so choose to do and they can find buyers, but not here. If they are after such great profit, they need to take greater risks and make greater efforts. Being allowed on ECF classifieds is just too easy for them.
It's a matter of dealing with what has grown into a highly speculative brokerage business activity on a high profile community website. See, ECF actually understands its role and mission as for the good of this community. They do regulate as to protect the community. Vendors have to go through a thorough vetting process and are subject to strict rules. ECF does not allow vendors who sell overpriced or low quality items or who otherwise have shady business practices. It has nothing to do with free market or one's opinion about economics. One could easily retort - if those sites are able to sell overpriced crap to fools, let it be that way. But, no, the problem is not whether such vendors are allowed to do business , but whether or not they should be able to do their business here.
ECF claims it stands for certain values and, over the time, has even been accused of enforcing its policies too drastically. It does so to enhance the spirit of community and to preserve its members' relative safety in every respect. The only blaring exception is the manner in which the Classifieds section is ran.
See, the bad vendors I mentioned base their business on lack of information availability and sell outdated or overpriced gear that way. On the ECF classifieds, when outrageous prices are asked for and all comments say "great deal, GLWS" it's exactly the same thing. ECF literally hosts the equivalent of the vendor sites it otherwise bans!
I say, let anyone profit from the market imbalances if they so choose to do and they can find buyers, but not here. If they are after such great profit, they need to take greater risks and make greater efforts. Being allowed on ECF classifieds is just too easy for them.
see here:
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-vape-gear-ecf-needs-stop-7.html#post7185409
Of course when I look at the poll options i see the poll is skewed. You should probably read the classifieds rules and my response before beating this dead horse any further.
http://www.e-cigarette-forum.com/fo...g-vape-gear-ecf-needs-stop-7.html#post7185409
Of course when I look at the poll options i see the poll is skewed. You should probably read the classifieds rules and my response before beating this dead horse any further.
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