Clones... Why?

[Jman8]

As I posted some time back, it does make it not a counterfeit, by definition.

Counterfeit : made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive : forged <counterfeit money>

There are two types of counterfeiting:

1 - Deceptive counterfeiting
2 - Non-deceptive counterfeiting

Common to both types is that generally the manufacturer of a counterfeited good does not seek legal consent of the original designer/manufacturer before bringing their product to market. It is possible that an original designer could be engaged in non-deceptive counterfeiting for various reasons, all of which would create a gray area on the legality of what they are up to.

 

[Ed_C]

There are two types of counterfeiting:

1 - Deceptive counterfeiting
2 - Non-deceptive counterfeiting

Common to both types is that generally the manufacturer of a counterfeited good does not seek legal consent of the original designer/manufacturer before bringing their product to market. It is possible that an original designer could be engaged in non-deceptive counterfeiting for various reasons, all of which would create a gray area on the legality of what they are up to.

Could you please offer a citation for your definition of the later. I've never heard of non-deceptive counterfeiting. As far as I know, and I'm no expert, If the item that is being copied is not being passed off as an original, it's a reproduction not a counterfeit. And if you don't own the rights to the design, in the form of a patent or copyright, there's no law to protect your design. Now, as I've said before, I think these clones are a bit cheesy, but I don't believe any laws are being broken. If there's someone who has expertise in this area of the law, please feel free to enlighten me.

 

[Psionic]

There are two types of counterfeiting:

1 - Deceptive counterfeiting
2 - Non-deceptive counterfeiting

I read it is estimated that 70% of all Lafite Rothschild wine in China is counterfeit. The bottle style, label, cork, cap and ID numbers are meticulously forged and the wine inside the bottle is taken from ~$20 bottles of wine. The fakes are listed at $1,000 and up depending on the labeled vintage.

Some may have heard of Rudy Kurniawan. He was convicted of creating and selling between 2 million to 8 million dollars worth of counterfeit wine in the USA. He sold most of the wine through highly regarded auction houses that hire professionals to inspect product before being listed. He sits in prison awaiting his sentence.

Both cases stated here are clearly deceptive counterfeiting since the buyer does not know the item up for sale is a fake.

The non-deceptive counterfeits sold from China are priced very low which implies they are not originals. Because of the example I stated above, I will never try and purchase an original mod from a B&M store or a website other than the manufucaturer of the original mod. It is due to this case that I think cloners have hurt the integrity for the market for legit products.

The reason why they do not know the exact amount of fake wine that Rudy sold is because there are many buyers who have not come forward. Some believe these fakes have been sold several times since original purchase and also because many buyers dont like to publicly admit that they were duped.

I agree to the notion that clones should not display logo's or serial numbers.

 

[Jman8]

Could you please offer a citation for your definition of the later. I've never heard of non-deceptive counterfeiting.

I think this link might be helpful.

Do you think piracy of digital reproductions is illegal? The type of transaction where pirate makes copy of a film (for instance), leaving off the trademark/film production company info, and then sells it to buyers who knowingly purchase these reproductions as bootlegs.

 

[ddloco]

As I posted some time back, it does make it not a counterfeit, by definition.

Counterfeit : made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive : forged

I'd be willing to bet that the ones who are arguing that clones are wrong will read this and still try and argue against it

I tell you what I'm buy me a clone if that's what's available and because y'all got y'all noses pointed up in the air I'll wave my clones in your face every time I get and I hope oh how I hope it spoils your day I mean I want you to not sleep at night please guys lose sleep over my clone purchase then my job and plan will be successful as far as me losing sleep behind buying what I want with my money I will sleep like a baby

#cold hard facts
#just the way it is
#and the way its gonna be

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

 

[Ed_C]

I think this link might be helpful.

Do you think piracy of digital reproductions is illegal? The type of transaction where pirate makes copy of a film (for instance), leaving off the trademark/film production company info, and then sells it to buyers who knowingly purchase these reproductions as bootlegs.

Love that animated link, but I was more interested in where you got YOUR information and not so much, what the whole of the internet thought.

 

[Jman8]

Love that animated link, but I was more interested in where you got YOUR information and not so much, what the whole of the internet thought.

You go first. Link where your definition of counterfeit came from. Cool?

 

[stevegmu]

That argument makes no sense. If there is no intent to deceive, why are the logos copied (and often serial numbers)? Why does the Tree of Life mod have USA stamped next to Element's logo when it's made in China? Why is there a serial number engraved in the bottom cap, just like the original?

And yet there is no intent to deceive?

My guess is the buyers of the counterfeits want others to think they own the real mods, and the counterfeiters know it...

 

[Jman8]

I tell you what I'm buy me a clone if that's what's available and because y'all got y'all noses pointed up in the air I'll wave my clones in your face every time I get and I hope oh how I hope it spoils your day I mean I want you to not sleep at night please guys lose sleep over my clone purchase then my job and plan will be successful as far as me losing sleep behind buying what I want with my money I will sleep like a baby

Precisely the kind of attitude I'm counting on if eCigs go way of the black market. Which was what my first post brought up.

No way they will (ever) be regulated out of existence with this attitude permeating the underground market and assuring a demand.

 

[Ed_C]

You go first. Link where your definition of counterfeit came from. Cool?

My definition came from my old pal Merriam.
Counterfeit - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

 

[Chelonian]

I'd be willing to bet that the ones who are arguing that clones are wrong will read this and still try and argue against it

I tell you what I'm buy me a clone if that's what's available and because y'all got y'all noses pointed up in the air I'll wave my clones in your face every time I get and I hope oh how I hope it spoils your day I mean I want you to not sleep at night please guys lose sleep over my clone purchase then my job and plan will be successful as far as me losing sleep behind buying what I want with my money I will sleep like a baby

#cold hard facts
#just the way it is
#and the way its gonna be

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

So gangsta.

Wave ya clones in the a-ya

woop woop

Your staggering intellectual arguments have swayed the masses

 

[MrKiltYou]

My guess is the buyers of the counterfeits want others to think they own the real mods, and the counterfeiters know it...

That is a pretty sweeping comment. I don't think the majority of the people feel that way that buy counterfeits. I for instance have a few authentic atty's and VW mods. I also have three counterfeit mech mods. I just have not decided which I want to buy the authentic of. I would also add that I believe (at least would like to) that a lot of the people would buy the mech mod naked (devoid of logo's and such). The three counterfeits I got I would have purchased naked if I had the option. My point in buying counterfeits is that I get to try out a verity of mech modes and decide what what I want to buy when they come available on the new/used markets. Also as someone pointed out it is not like the authentic market is hurting because of them. There are still plenty of us that are willing to pay the hobby batch uplift cost. The only danger is that once people stop buying the authentic mod's there were be very little if any further new designs as we know that the countries in which counterfeits come from are actually risk adverse. Which is why they trade of other peoples names.

 

[Chelonian]

I have to agree with MrKiltYou on this one - I don't think most buy it to pass off as original.

Heck, most on ECF, an internet forum, where the deception would be the easiest, state clone/authentic in the post

 

[Bad Ninja]

I have to agree with MrKiltYou on this one - I don't think most buy it to pass off as original.

Heck, most on ECF, an internet forum, where the deception would be the easiest, state clone/authentic in the post

I agree.
I see clone owners clearly stating they are clones.
No one who uses common sense is getting fooled.
(Buying a Half priced mod off an eBay stranger isn't using good sense).

As evidenced here on ECF, the real reason legit owners hate clones is resale value.
They want no options for buyers. They want to create a market where they can get a premium for a used mod.

Buying a mod as an investment is like buying commemorative NASCAR plates for their resale value.

Not a wise choice IMHO.

 

[Jman8]

My definition came from my old pal Merriam.
Counterfeit - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary

And you provided partial definition then, I see. Here is full definition from link you provided:

1: made in imitation of something else with intent to deceive
: forged <counterfeit money>
2 a : insincere, feigned <counterfeit sympathy>
b : imitation <counterfeit Georgian houses>

Clones would fit in with what 2b is saying is definition of counterfeit.

Anyway, to answer the question you asked of me regarding where I got my information; I found the term "non-deceptive counterfeit" on google search the last time I engaged in this discussion on ECF. I read a number of links that brought it up. Coupled with what I understand about copyright infringement and industrial design rights, I then used reason to say what I put forth in concluding paragraph of post #501. I would be very interested if a lawyer that specializes in such cases would disagree with my assertion (from post #501) where I said, "Common to both types is that generally the manufacturer of a counterfeited good does not seek legal consent of the original designer/manufacturer before bringing their product to market."

For once that consent is sought, then deception in the market would be lessened, and if legally granted, I would think would be non-existent.

I think we all agree that counterfeiting money is wrong, illegal, yadda yadda yadda. But under the cloning arguments put forth, it would seem that if a party created a clone of money (very similar but not the same) and then sold that to a buyer who was not deceived that this was a clone, that there would not be anything illegal, immoral or otherwise wrong with that transaction as no one is being deceived. If that purchaser later tries to deceive others (by passing it off as form of legitimate currency), that could be where wrongdoing comes in, but the original manufacturer of the clone would not be doing anything wrong under this logic.

And incidentally, many of the same reasons used to justify cloning, could be used to justify counterfeit. Near the top of that list, I would say is reasoning that lets everyone know that if you have a problem with counterfeit money, then that is your problem, as counterfeiters are going to keep on doing what they wish to do regardless of your opposing assertions.

 

[stevegmu]

That is a pretty sweeping comment. I don't think the majority of the people feel that way that buy counterfeits. I for instance have a few authentic atty's and VW mods. I also have three counterfeit mech mods. I just have not decided which I want to buy the authentic of. I would also add that I believe (at least would like to) that a lot of the people would buy the mech mod naked (devoid of logo's and such). The three counterfeits I got I would have purchased naked if I had the option. My point in buying counterfeits is that I get to try out a verity of mech modes and decide what what I want to buy when they come available on the new/used markets. Also as someone pointed out it is not like the authentic market is hurting because of them. There are still plenty of us that are willing to pay the hobby batch uplift cost. The only danger is that once people stop buying the authentic mod's there were be very little if any further new designs as we know that the countries in which counterfeits come from are actually risk adverse. Which is why they trade of other peoples names.

Maybe they try to fool themselves into thinking they are the real...

From what I have seen of authentic and counterfeit, I can't imagine buying a counterfeit to see how the authentic performs, as machining is no where as precise with the counterfeits- even pressed parts, vs. machined... I'm sure there are some which are close, but not from what I have seen.

 

[stevegmu]

Oh, I have never heard the term clone refer to anything other than in biology; but some also call cigarettes analogs...

 

[Bad Ninja]

Maybe they try to fool themselves into thinking they are the real...

From what I have seen of authentic and counterfeit, I can't imagine buying a counterfeit to see how the authentic performs, as machining is no where as precise with the counterfeits- even pressed parts, vs. machined... I'm sure there are some which are close, but not from what I have seen.

People who buy clone mechs are not as concerned with image as you appear to be.
You keep throwing attempted insults at clone buyers, but if that's the only reason you can see someone buying clones you are incorrect.

Precision threading on a soft brass pipe?
Who are you kidding?
Yes I'm sure te threading will be a bit better, but worth 10x the price?

The enormous price gap is the only thing keeping the clone industry alive.

You would think a Modder would reinvest some profit back into his own company so that thy could lower cost and meet demand.....but it seems a broken business model is adopted within this industry in order to keep demand high and inventories low.
Manufactured demand.
Obvious.

 

[Ed_C]

I'm not sure if copyrights would pertain to what were are talking about. You could register your trademark or try to patent a design, if it was unique enough. But I think all these are generally enforced by the holder and would usually involve engaging legal representation and there would be significant costs involved.

 

[stevegmu]

I'm not sure if copyrights would pertain to what were are talking about. You could register your trademark or try to patent a design, if it was unique enough. But I think all these are generally enforced by the holder and would usually involve engaging legal representation and there would be significant costs involved.

With all of Apple's power and money, they can't even prevent counterfeit iPhones and other i-devices from being made and sold in PRC...