Corn Glycerin question.

[mhertz]

It's not glycerin, they meant to say corn-glycol It's a somewhat unprofessional firm honestly... In the site they state glycerin, which it's not, and in there MSDS they state glucose! wtf, lol!

Btw, not all glycerin is a byproduct of biodiesel, but also from soap-production and also direct hydrolosis from Veg-oils...

The most common are rapeseed and soy and palm I believe. I think very few use coconut oil for vg as that's to expensive... I know RTS states in one place there VG is coconut-derived, but at another place(normal vs. wholesale) it's listed as palm and coconut-derived, but never seen others stating that... Many have changed lately from palm to e.g. rapeseed, because of deforrestation issues. Of course corn could be used too, and is, as i've seen it in one COA I remember...

I've spoken to a VG manufacturer, which does direct hydrolosis from veg-oils, and the owner of said firm stated that all VG manufacturers he knew did it like them, meaning mixed vegetal sources, because the prices of different crops varies greatly at different time of year and anything else wouldn't make sense economically... Of course that was an EU manufacturer, and e.g. malaysian and indonisian manufacturers pretty often only use palm because they have a wealth of it locally for cheap... However, also there atleast one switches between palm and soy from batch to batch I know(the VG source of bulk-apothecary)...

 

[tmcase]

Thank you all for some good and valuable information. I'm beginning the think that whatever this PG alternative is called, it's ok to vape so since I spent $20 for a 30ml bottle I'm not going to let it go to waste. If you don't hear from me again you'll know it wasn't safe to vape.

 

[Beeker]

It's not glycerin, they meant to say glycol Btw, not all glycerin is a byproduct of biodiesel, but also from soap-production and also direct hydrolosis from Veg-oils...

The most common are rapeseed and soy and palm I believe. I think very few use coconut oil for vg as that's to expensive... I know RTS states in one place there's VG is coconut-derived, but at another place(normal vs. wholesale) it's listed as palm and coconut-derived, but never seen others stating that... Many have changed lately from palm to e.g. rapeseed, because of deforrestation issues. Of course corn could be used too, and is, as i've seen it in one COA I remember...

Quite true...

Vegetable sourced glycols gets to the end point product (PG) via a different route than petroleum stock glycols...and its Renewable and Green (both hot buzzwords that are useful in some markets)...in fact PG can be made from glycerin as well...

I only mentioned the coconut oil because it's frequently included in bio-diesel production sourced from cooking oils...the most common feedstock of glycerin is, I believe, palm oil derived, as it's much cheaper, although with the renewable fuels/ethanol mandate corn is rapidly replacing other oils as a feedstock, at least here in the US.

 

[tmcase]

Now you guys have me thinking about corn and corn is being genetically modified (GMO) so that begs the question...Is the PG alternative using GMO corn in any way, shape or form? Probably not but how would we know?

 

[Cool_Breeze]

For what it's worth...

PG - Propylene Glycol, as we have know it, is Propane-1,2-diol, or 1,2-Propanediol.
PDO - Propanediol as we have been discussing is 1,3-Propanediol.

It appears they are different, though related molecules.

 

[jambi]

Now you guys have me thinking about corn and corn is being genetically modified (GMO) so that begs the question...Is the PG alternative using GMO corn in any way, shape or form? Probably not but how would we know?

If it's using USA corn, it's most likely GMO.

 

[mhertz]

Indeed... Both have molecular formula: C3H8O2...

About GMO, then I don't know, but it was 'dupont tate & lyle' that invented the process of specifically making PDO from corn syrup, which they call BioPDO, so maybe they are the sole producers of corn based PDO(?)...

Chemnovatic lists these for the PDO they get and use and which probably is what everyone uses(dupont tate & lyle):

"Has plenty of certificates such as EcoCert™; Natural Products Association; USDA 100% Biobased; s-GRAS; USP-FCC; Halal."

"100% natural
Made from 100% ingredients natural origin (0 % of physically processed vegetal ingredients), 0% synthetic, without any artificial ingredients!"

 

[tmcase]

This is all very interesting. I only wish I understood it. You guys are way too smart for me and I'm more confused than ever. I do appreciate you all trying to help though.

 

[Beeker]

None of this technically matters...the molecule IS the molecule...I'm surprised they don't also say it's 'Gluten Free'...'100 percent natural'....'Dolphin safe'...'made by Elves in a hollow tree'!

 

[r77r7r]

I like oats

 

[Beeker]

I like oats

 

[Kurt]

Vegetable oil to Bio-diesel ...Glycerin is a by product of bio-diesel production and there are millions of gallons of the stuff produced. It's usually made from soybean, palm or coconut oil but there's no reason it can't be made from corn oil and lately the bio-diesel world has turned to corn oil as it's a fast growing feed stock for bio-diesel production. Don't see why they feel the need to specify that it is Corn Glycerin though as that's a minor distinction, in my opinion, separating it from the usual "vegetable glycerin" ingredient ID.

Looks to me that this is what is happening: they are calling 1,3-PDO "corn glycerin". It is made from corn syrup, but its not glycerin, which is 1,2,3-propanetriol. I have known about 1,3-PDO for well over a year now. Lots of wording stating how "all-natural" it is...save for the part that to make it from corn you have to use a GMO version of E.Coli. It can be synthesized too, like PG. Its also not a glycol, which is where the OHs are on carbons next to each other. The ubiquitous implication that PG sensitivity is due to it being synthesized from petroleum products has no basis in fact...I am sensitive to being dried out by PG because it is PG, regardless of the source. Evidently there is less dehydration with 1,3-PDO...but I've not tried it, so I personally could not say.

Two things to me are very important in considering 1,3-PDO for vaping: topical sensitivity/adverse reactions, and metabolites that form in the body. From what I've read, both aspects so far seem ok for PDO. But PG has decades of being used medicinally for inhalation and internal use, as well as food. PDO is still pretty new, but so far looks promising.

Request to the industry: please do not call 1,3-PDO Corn Glycerin or Corn Glycol, as it is neither. Call it what it is. Please.

 

[mhertz]

Thanks a lot for clarifying Kurt! Also sorry for stating they should have stated "corn glycol". I thought it was more appropriate than "corn glycerin", which is totally wrong, and so thought a propylene-glycol alternative also would've been a glycol, as sharing same molecular formulah, but just goes to show how much I know about this, lol!

@All, Btw, personally I get dried out equally with PG as VG, and just completed a 6 different brands EU VG taste-test, and one of them dries me out more than others, so if you have drying out issues then it could be an idea to try several vendors... I really don't get why that can happen, since same molecule(glycerol), or the fact that they(some) taste pretty different when unflavored(for same reason, and as they are so pure that original feedstock should be hydrolised out completelly, or so i've heard), but oh well, I don't understand everything...

 

[tmcase]

Thank you @Kurt for jumping in here and clearing up a few things. I think we will be hearing more about this stuff in the near future. Hopefully any news will be posted here.

 

[Cool_Breeze]

...I am sensitive to being dried out by PG because it is PG, regardless of the source. Evidently there is less dehydration with 1,3-PDO...but I've not tried it, so I personally could not say...

Kurt - ...good to see you weigh in on this topic.

In my brief experimention with 1,3-Propanedoil, I had dry skin issues in short order. Though I didn't push it far, it seemed much like PG.

I want to believe that better base agents will be found, but I'm not knowlegable in chemistry. Perhpas something (propriatary, trade secret?) will be found in the labs of the tabacco companies.

 

[Kurt]

Turns out some sources call ANY diol a glycol, but wiki says a glycol is a vicinal diol (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diol).

My organic chem text says a glycol is a vicinal diol. Vicinal means the two OHs are on adjacent carbons. But DuPont says 1,3-PDO is a glycol, and so do many online dictionaries. So its not clear, but I learned that glycol was a vicinal diol, not a 1,3-diol. Organic chem's rules can be somewhat mushy sometimes. Corn glycol may not be a bad name for it.

Good info Cool-Breeze. I'm trying to get some to try. If the lips get chapped (first stage of PG effects) I will avoid it. But I'd like to get it a try. PG messes with my insides and will eventually give me mouth sores, and worse. I do just fine with VG and water for my DIYs, but a PG alternative would be good if it doesn't dehydrate and wicks well.

 

[tmcase]

@Kurt I hope you will post your findings when you receive your bottle of VG/C? when you try it.

 

[tmcase]

I'm pretty sensitive to PG also. The only symptoms I get from it is a very harsh vape. This bottle of juice that I got with CG is not harsh at all and I lung inhale. I also haven't noticed any more dehydration from it than any other Max VG juice that I buy or DIY.

 

[Beeker]

Looks to me that this is what is happening: they are calling 1,3-PDO "corn glycerin". It is made from corn syrup, but its not glycerin, which is 1,2,3-propanetriol. I have known about 1,3-PDO for well over a year now. Lots of wording stating how "all-natural" it is...save for the part that to make it from corn you have to use a GMO version of E.Coli. It can be synthesized too, like PG. Its also not a glycol, which is where the OHs are on carbons next to each other. The ubiquitous implication that PG sensitivity is due to it being synthesized from petroleum products has no basis in fact...I am sensitive to being dried out by PG because it is PG, regardless of the source. Evidently there is less dehydration with 1,3-PDO...but I've not tried it, so I personally could not say.

Two things to me are very important in considering 1,3-PDO for vaping: topical sensitivity/adverse reactions, and metabolites that form in the body. From what I've read, both aspects so far seem ok for PDO. But PG has decades of being used medicinally for inhalation and internal use, as well as food. PDO is still pretty new, but so far looks promising.

Request to the industry: please do not call 1,3-PDO Corn Glycerin or Corn Glycol, as it is neither. Call it what it is. Please.

You're kidding...E. Coli is part of the Biofuel synthesis now? I suppose it could...and there would be a significant net energy savings. Man I'm behind the curve on this stuff. I'm assuming there's a patent and there's only a single source or few licensed sources making 1,3 PDO? They need to be careful hacking these bacterium...that's how zombies get started!

 

[tmcase]

Yeah...e. Coli and GMO, those 2 words could scare a lot of people away from ejuice with this stuff in it.