Dimitri Goes Off on Rant About Dishonest Liquid Vendors

[englishmick]

I think I'm going to get Halo Tribeca tested myself.
It's the longest standing liquid in my rotation and the only one I could vape all day if I had to.

Anyone know how to go about that?

According to Nude Nicotine's latest newsletter they are offering the use of their own testing services. The details should be on their website, I haven't checked it out. It sounded like it was aimed at other vendors and it didn't mention price, but it might be worth a look.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

I think all of this should mean change is afoot. So many juice manufacturers claim to test their juices and that their juices are "Diacetyl Free" or below "acceptable levels". IF you are testing your juices, post those results! I may prefer flavor A over flavor B, but if flavor A is higher in Diacetyl or AP, just tell me how much! Then I can make a decision as an informed consumer over whether my preference justifies the increased exposure, or if I might prefer to vape another flavor instead, to reduce my exposure.

It really is that simple. I do my best to avoid unhealthy foods. Unfortunately I spend some time on the road, and it isn't always possible. Now that fast food restaurants are posting the calories, sodium and fat content of their offerings, I often choose something that I may not like as much, if it has far less calories, sodium, and fat than my primary choice. I understand that you want to sell something that brings me back, but at least let me make the decision about what it is that I am coming back FOR.

I never would have considered Arby's to be a top contender for my business while on the road, until I read the stats on their pecan chicken sandwich and tried one. It's delicious, and WAY better than my previous choices that I often THOUGHT might be a better choice. Who knew how much FAT was added to a salad via the dressing?! What we think, and what we know are often much different. And we don't KNOW what we know, until we know it, if you know what I mean.

 

[Caro123]

I of course do not know the company who did the test, the lab they used, or even the maker they are accusing, however I do know something about lab tests. Lab tests need to be performed with a certain protocol ie after fasting or specimens kept refrigerated or collected in a certain manner etc. How were the specimens handled , did they sit in a hot car or freezing cold car, etc false positives and false negatives are quite common in some lab tests. Because of the shocking results was the test repeated?

So my question : is there a possibility the testing was inaccurate for one reason or another? I would assume of course that the company who is making the claim of unethical dealings is very sure of their information and has no ulterior motive or hidden agenda other than the betterment of ejuices for those who have concern. Regarding nicotine strength, what was the variation- was it labelled 18 and was really 36 or was it labelled 18 and was really 3.

 

[LouisLeBeau]

I of course do not know the company who did the test, the lab they used, or even the maker they are accusing, however I do know something about lab tests. Lab tests need to be performed with a certain protocol ie after fasting or specimens kept refrigerated or collected in a certain manner etc. How were the specimens handled , did they sit in a hot car or freezing cold car, etc false positives and false negatives are quite common in some lab tests. Because of the shocking results was the test repeated?

So my question : is there a possibility the testing was inaccurate for one reason or another? I would assume of course that the company who is making the claim of unethical dealings is very sure of their information and has no ulterior motive or hidden agenda other than the betterment of ejuices for those who have concern. Regarding nicotine strength, what was the variation- was it labelled 18 and was really 36 or was it labelled 18 and was really 3.

I'm going to go out on a limb here without factual information. I know COV, and I'm thinking that 5P was probably a considerably lucrative offering on their menu. There is scant else on it in the way of ejuice.

I've had dealings with COV including one that was less than satisfactory, and the company did the right thing. In addition, there would be considerable liability on them to make these claims if there was any question as to their repeatability and accuracy. It would be one thing for them to just drop the line. Completely another to come out with their findings as they have. They've been around a LONG time, in terms of the vape world. BECAUSE of the dealings I've had with them in the past, I have to vouch for their credibility. It doesn't mean they're not wrong, but I personally have every reason to believe they are right. Or at least they believe they are, and are willing to stick their necks out for Vapers. Trust is something you have to earn, and I think that is their only dog in this fight.

 

[gin828]

To be honest.... I do not care what or how a person vapes. We all know the FDA will regulate and the government will tax vaping. We won't be able to stop it from happening.

Big Tobacco lied threw its teeth for years about everything. They made tons of money by lying to the public. Do we really want to take vaping down that road? We all vape for different reasons and have different concerns about its effects on health.

I believe we will know about effects on our lungs years down the road but for now do we really need juice makers hiding ingredients that could pose some type of known danger.

Vaping has been sky rocketing with devices, tanks, and juices. Everybody is trying to cash in on it. Unfortunately because of greed and dishonesty, I think we are just giving the FDA the nails to seal our coffin shut. Once the FDA puts the regulations in place, big tobacco will get into vaping full time and won't stop until we are back under their thumb.

 

[caramel]

A few objections to the post above:

1. How exactly did FDA regulations and government taxes make cigarettes any safer?

2. There is a fundamental problem with asking the Government to regulate something that they don't want you to do at all. They won't do it any safer, they'll just make it cumbersome and expensive.

 

[Caro123]

I'm going to go out on a limb here without factual information. I know COV, and I'm thinking that 5P was probably a considerably lucrative offering on their menu. There is scant else on it in the way of ejuice.

I've had dealings with COV including one that was less than satisfactory, and the company did the right thing. In addition, there would be considerable liability on them to make these claims if there was any question as to their repeatability and accuracy. It would be one thing for them to just drop the line. Completely another to come out with their findings as they have. They've been around a LONG time, in terms of the vape world. BECAUSE of the dealings I've had with them in the past, I have to vouch for their credibility. It doesn't mean they're not wrong, but I personally have every reason to believe they are right. Or at least they believe they are, and are willing to stick their necks out for Vapers. Trust is something you have to earn, and I think that is their only dog in this fight.

you have more knowledge of the players than I do and a better understanding of the concerns ie diketones etc I have only been Vaping for a short 4 months and only been aware of this forum or any forum at all that had anything to do with Vaping for a few months but what I have seen here sometimes is deep seated fears expressed - who knows maybe this is natural because Vaping does not have the history of smoking. I could quite comfortably smoke my smoke and not give much concern to the horrors of smoking - I never had much of a cough and all of my heavy smoking relatives lived to their eighties - in other words smoking may have been killing off people in droves, zillions every day, but my reality was all my relatives smoked like chimneys and lived till their eighties.
I of course do not know any vapers who have been Vaping for 65 years, heck I don't know any who have been Vaping more than a very short while. I do know people can easily become anxious, it seems to be part of the survival instinct

 

[gin828]

@Caramal
They didn't make anything safer and I am not asking for government to regulate anything.....

What I am pointing out is "they are going to regulate it"

Why can't juice makers be honest and disclose what they have in the juice?

 

[Lessifer]

@Caramal
They didn't make anything safer and I am not asking for government to regulate anything.....

What I am pointing out is "they are going to regulate it"

Why can't juice makers be honest and disclose what they have in the juice?

I'm not saying this is right or wrong but right now it's diketones, which are most likely a cause for concern, whether they need to be fully eliminated or not. So all vendors test for them and post results. Then next month someone gets the idea that x is a concern, and it at least sounds plausible, even though there's no real evidence of harm. So, all vendors run tests again checking for x this time, and post results, and so on. It could get very expensive, relatively quickly, without setting some threshold for what exactly is a credible threat, and we don't even have that for diketones yet.

 

[gin828]

Lessifer.... I see your point about testing and at some point it will be costly. I am sure if you do enough testing on anything you will find nasty stuff in everything we eat, drink, and vape. I am not saying that we should test for everything but if we know certain chemicals can do harm at certain levels, the juice makers should disclose they are using it.

 

[Mazinny]

I'm not saying this is right or wrong but right now it's diketones, which are most likely a cause for concern, whether they need to be fully eliminated or not. So all vendors test for them and post results. Then next month someone gets the idea that x is a concern, and it at least sounds plausible, even though there's no real evidence of harm. So, all vendors run tests again checking for x this time, and post results, and so on. It could get very expensive, relatively quickly, without setting some threshold for what exactly is a credible threat, and we don't even have that for diketones yet.

It's not supposed to be cheap and easy to be in this business though. We are inhaling stuff that was intended for ingestion ! Lots of unknowns here. Everyone has a different risk threshold. Your level of concern ( given currently available information and your understanding and interpretation of it ) might be a 2 out of 10, and mine could be a 5 for example. Accurate and truthful disclosure is the only way informed decisions could be made.

At the very least they could say something like " We don't know if there is x, y, or z in our product and the cost of testing would be too burdensome for us currently. ".

 

[nicnik]

I think it's important to also consider the possibility that diketones have already saved many lives by luring people away from smoking. They taste incredibly good to a lot of people. Being a natural born worrier, I don't want diketones for myself, but I don't need them to stay away from smoking.

I like unflavored, but although I believe that unflavored would have been adequate for me to quit, I can't say I'm sure. I did not even try any bakery type flavors 'til months into vaping/no smoking (before I found out about the diketones issue), so I know they weren't necessary for me. Flavoring, in general, might have been.

 

[Lessifer]

It's not supposed to be cheap and easy to be in this business though. We are inhaling stuff that was intended for ingestion ! Lots of unknowns here. Everyone has a different risk threshold. Your level of concern ( given currently available information and your understanding and interpretation of it ) might be a 2 out of 10, and mine could be a 5 for example. Accurate and truthful disclosure is the only way informed decisions could be made.

At the very least they could say something like " We don't know if there is x, y, or z in our product and the cost of testing would be too burdensome for us currently. ".

I would like to keep the smaller non-multi-national conglomerates in this business.

I have no problem with vendors who choose to disclose, or choose not to disclose, but if you're going to say anything about what is in your liquids, it really does need to be accurate.

 

[Caro123]

Lessifer.... I see your point about testing and at some point it will be costly. I am sure if you do enough testing on anything you will find nasty stuff in everything we eat, drink, and vape. I am not saying that we should test for everything but if we know certain chemicals can do harm at certain levels, the juice makers should disclose they are using it.

I suspect you are right but don't most labels say warning crap vape at your own risk.

I have heard fears about:
1) the purity of the pg ie used in anti freeze
2) the purity of the vg turns into something else at high temps or is sourced in draculas forrest
3) the accuracy of the nicotine strength - be sure to test your own somebody might spike it
4) the dangers of this flavour or that flavour diketones and popcorn lungs
5) the safety of this gizmo or that gizmo.
I have heard that Vaping at high temps will harm you, batteries will explode, nicotine dropped on your skin will burn holes in you
sweet mother this Vaping thing is beginning to sound more dangerous than smoking. But so far it is a lot cheaper ( DIY) and smells better think I will just ignore all of it

 

[Lessifer]

2) the purity of the vg turns into something else at high temps or is sourced in draculas forrest

 

[Racehorse]

You're taking it abit out of context though. For the people who vapes 15-30mils a day he was concerned..

How can I take something out of context when all I did was post the link to the Dr.'s actual post/words?

I dunno where you got the part about amount vaped, etc. That wasn't in the post I quoted.

 

[Racehorse]

Lab tests need to be performed with a certain protocol ie after fasting or specimens kept refrigerated or collected in a certain manner etc. How were the specimens handled , did they sit in a hot car or freezing cold car, etc false positives and false negatives are quite common in some lab tests. Because of the shocking results was the test repeated?

Unlike blood or biological samples, ejuice does not require refrigeration or special handling. It comes thru the mail and goes thru a lot of "conditions" to get to me.

A diketone wouldn't suddenly appear inside an eliquid because it was kept cold or hot. It has to be IN THERE to show up, it doesn't absorb thru the bottle from "outside in the air". Or from cold or heat. It's a component inside the actual juice itself.

So my question : is there a possibility the testing was inaccurate for one reason or another?

Any test can be inaccurate. Let the vendor retest with another company if they wish.

Regarding nicotine strength, what was the variation- was it labelled 18 and was really 36 or was it labelled 18 and was really 3.

who cares? If it says 36 it should be pretty close to that. In case you didn't read the whole blog at Cloud 9 Vaping, it appears they already give a certain leeway.......but "the nicotine level detected on the Five Pawns tests was outside acceptable tolerances on half of the samples submitted."

It was outside of ACCEPTABLE TOLERANCES.

that is pretty clear wording to me?

 

[Caro123]

Unlike blood or biological samples, ejuice does not require refrigeration or special handling. It comes thru the mail and goes thru a lot of "conditions" to get to me.

A diketone wouldn't suddenly appear inside an eliquid because it was kept cold or hot. It has to be IN THERE to show up, it doesn't absorb thru the bottle from "outside in the air". Or from cold or heat. It's a component inside the actual juice itself.


Any test can be inaccurate. Let the vendor retest with another company if they wish.



who cares? If it says 36 it should be pretty close to that. In case you didn't read the whole blog at Cloud 9 Vaping, it appears they already give a certain leeway.......but "the nicotine level detected on the Five Pawns tests was outside acceptable tolerances on half of the samples submitted."

It was outside of ACCEPTABLE TOLERANCES.

that is pretty clear wording to me?

wouldn't it be a best practice for the company that is coming out with a pretty big negative stick to verify their test to be certain they're correct or do you feel a one time test is sufficient to be dumping big time on another company - just wondering
Don't get me wrong if company x is the back side of a donkey so be it and perhaps multiple groups should be blaming and shaming BUT I would think the company trying to clean up the act of another needs to be VERY certain

 

[gin828]

I suspect you are right but don't most labels say warning crap vape at your own risk.

I have heard fears about:
1) the purity of the pg ie used in anti freeze
2) the purity of the vg turns into something else at high temps or is sourced in draculas forrest
3) the accuracy of the nicotine strength - be sure to test your own somebody might spike it
4) the dangers of this flavour or that flavour diketones and popcorn lungs
5) the safety of this gizmo or that gizmo.
I have heard that Vaping at high temps will harm you, batteries will explode, nicotine dropped on your skin will burn holes in you
sweet mother this Vaping thing is beginning to sound more dangerous than smoking. But so far it is a lot cheaper ( DIY) and smells better think I will just ignore all of it

Some companies label and some don't....

It can be nerve racking to sift through all the bs to get very little facts.

I like the idea of posting test results but unless they disclose test protocols, test equipment certifications etc....it don't mean squat. It can get very confusing

 

[Lessifer]

I can't see anything on the 5P site that says that they are supposed to be diketone free.